Ich spreche deutsch jetzt. Komm ich als ein alternativ Zeitasche?

We declared war on Japan. Then the Germans declared war on us, since they were allies, and then we declared war on the Germans. And we fought the Japanese from the first day of our involvement until the last day of our involvement.

I don't know what the hell your headline is supposed to mean. I think there's a few Pacific Theater Marines that would like to have a discussion with you about how we didn't go after the Japanese first.

Lando Lincoln: We declared war on Japan. Then the Germans declared war on us, since they were allies, and then we declared war on the Germans. And we fought the Japanese from the first day of our involvement until the last day of our involvement.

I don't know what the hell your headline is supposed to mean. I think there's a few Pacific Theater Marines that would like to have a discussion with you about how we didn't go after the Japanese first.

It was explicitly a "Germany First" strategy that FDR announced. That meant the bulk of our effort would be aimed at Germany. In fact, Torch was executed in part due to pressure to act on Germany first as promised.

Of course, I have no idea why we did that. Germany didn't attack us on 12/7. And there's no way white supremacists would ally themselves with Asian supremacists...

Lando Lincoln: We declared war on Japan. Then the Germans declared war on us, since they were allies, and then we declared war on the Germans. And we fought the Japanese from the first day of our involvement until the last day of our involvement.

I don't know what the hell your headline is supposed to mean. I think there's a few Pacific Theater Marines that would like to have a discussion with you about how we didn't go after the Japanese first.

I hope that you are drunk and kidding. That headline in NO WAY was ignoring our efforts in the Pacific pre VE-Day. Simply that we focused the majority of our efforts on winning in Europe first. Winning in Europe meant we cut off the snake's head. Always go after the stronger force first. That's just historical fact.

I'm surprised you took it that way.

/Subby

Put simply, FDR had no choice on where the war effort could be concentrated. The Pacific fleet was in shambles and would take years to rebuild it to prewar levels.

Germany first was practical and a fight we could enter swing. The far east was a fight we could rarely attack in for a while.

And Patton was right. People don't want to hear about how you are holding your ground. They want to hear about how you are kicking some ass.

Subby: If FDR had decided to go after Japan first Hitler was a bit smarter during WWII, we might all be speaking German.

FTFY

The Onanist: Subby: If FDR had decided to go after Japan first Hitler was a bit smarter during WWII, we might all be speaking Germanhe wouldn't have attacked Russia, nor would he have gone f*cking about in North Africa.

FTFY

FTFY some more.

The weapons do not impress me. The submarine force was defeated by Enigma. The tanks were too big to be useful. The rocket fighter was as dangerous to its own pilots. Having a year advantage developing jet fighters would have made a difference if there had been fuel, pilots, and industry (so to that extent, Germany first mattered).

If Germany had not gone to Russia Russia would have come to Germany.

ZAZ: If Germany had not gone to Russia Russia would have come to Germany.

On a long enough timeline, sure. Hitler and Stalin were the pinnacles of megalomania, and I don't care how huge Eurasia is, there's only room enough for one megalomaniac. Still, even another year of peace would've given Hitler the freed up resources he would've needed to either seriously consider invading Britain or at least to successfully defend Fortress Europe. With enough time, you could possibly be looking at a scenario where the first city ever nuked off the map would've been London.

FTFL: "A quick but slow movie showing secret weapons of the nazi's that could of changed the outcome of ww2"

"quick but slow"
"nazi's"
could of"

wat

That whole, "if x had not happened, we'd all be speaking German by now" cliche is sooo lame. Sure Germany was strong and well organized, but if they ever did defeat in England and the USSR, they would have found themselves trying to hold onto a vast area of occupation with some extremely hostile occupants. Its not an uncommon trend in history that an emerging power finds it much easier to seize an empire than to hold one. Germany would have been bleeding resources as long as it tried to hold the territory. It may not have failed right away but I suspect that had it succeeded, the Cold War may have been between the US on one side, and Germany on the other. It would be interesting to see some reasonable what-if analysis on how that may have played out. The answer is not "we'd all be speaking German", though. We might all be living in a very different world if the US never entered the war. If we had taken our time in getting into the European theater, Germany may have gained an upper hand, but since we were always miles ahead on nukes than the Germans ever were, we still would have been able to decimate the Germans by the time 1947-48 came around.

The real problem with the "what if Hitler had not gone east?" pondering is, that was the point of his war. It wasn't about holding an empire. It was Aryans vs. Slavs. It was the master race vs. the people with funny names. The war in the West, Alsace-Lorraine possibly excepted, was a war Hitler didn't want, a means to an end.

Quite bluntly, there was little political and economic reason to prioritize the Pacific War. China was fighting a holding action on the continent, and Japan lacked the manpower to invade Australia/NZ or the continental US. Japan, for all of the daring, skill and fanaticism displayed, had shot it's load.

If we waited on Europe, Europe would be speaking Russian. Churchill and Roosevelt both knew where they had to go first. In some ways the European Theater was the first act of the Cold War.

ZAZ: The real problem with the "what if Hitler had not gone east?" pondering is, that was the point of his war. It wasn't about holding an empire. It was Aryans vs. Slavs. It was the master race vs. the people with funny names. The war in the West, Alsace-Lorraine possibly excepted, was a war Hitler didn't want, a means to an end.

German people have funny names...

actually, a more careful analysis of history will reveal that we began to focus our efforts on fighting japan even before december 7. i'm not a paranoiac, but it was an economic priority of ours.

all of this "one race hating another" isn't really the cause of war is it? ultimately, it's all about the resources. the nazis were letting the jews go to palestine even. just as long as they gave all their property to the fatherland.

It is 1484 miles from Reykjavik to Berlin. It is about the same distance from Tinian to Hiroshima.

So probably not.

Come to think of it, if Japan had won WWII, we would all be driving American cars.

/Pray that GM never invents a time machine.

NewportBarGuy: Simply that we focused the majority of our efforts on winning in Europe first. Winning in Europe meant we cut off the snake's head. Always go after the stronger force first. That's just historical fact.

No, we had a totally different strategy in Europe vs. Pacific. We had to island hop through Micronesia and the Philippines so we could have a strong logistical base from which we could eventually hit the mainland. We had to deal with the Japanese Navy first, who was still actively attacking us until we turned the tide, first at Midway, next at Coral Sea. I think you can't compare one strategy to another, and I think there was not much more we could do in the Pacific beyond what we were doing due to the time it takes to rebuild the Pacific fleet.

As for German "superweapons", they were either not important to Hitler (like the A-bomb), or they were doomed to fail due to being so complex and slow to build, they could be overwhelmed by superior numbers (the T-34 and Sherman got creamed by the Tiger, but they still took the day). The V-3 would have been interesting and the development of jets at an earlier time could have change the air war a bit, that's for sure.

Who is Hitler? What is an FDR? I know Britain because that's where Austin Powers came from and I know about the city of Japan because they have good fecal porn.

You guys are silly. If Hitler was this bad, I'm sure he is in jail or maybe dead.

I'm going to get some cereal to eat and come back tomorrow. Maybe then you guys will tell me who Hitler is.

The large tanks would have never worked at the time. The sheer weight of them would have overloaded their drive components and the early diesel motors. Weight like that requires a gas turbine engine.

The Nazis were beaten by the blood, sweat, and tears of the Russians. We helped, no doubt, but it was the Russians that broke the back of the Nazi war machine.

Seabon: The Nazis were beaten by the blood, sweat, and tears of the Russians. We helped, no doubt, but it was the Russians that broke the back of the Nazi war machine.

Britain provided the time, America provided the money, and Russia provided the blood.
~dunno who said it

Seabon: The Nazis were beaten by the blood, sweat, and tears of the Russians. We helped, no doubt, but it was the Russians that broke the back of the Nazi war machine.

No doubt the Russians suffered on a scale probably never seen before or since, but it was the two-front war that I believe broke the German's back. The hypothetical question may be what would have happened between the Nazis and Soviets if Hitler had just kept going east after Poland and just ignored Western Europe? Of course then you would have had no non-aggression pact and so forth, but the Soviets were really off of their game in 1939,since the purges had decimated the Red Army leadership to a point where the Finns gave them all they could handle.

Occam's Chainsaw: The Onanist: Subby: If FDR had decided to go after Japan first Hitler was a bit smarter during WWII, we might all be speaking Germanhe wouldn't have attacked Russia, nor would he have gone f*cking about in North Africa Germany had won WWII, Germany would have won WWII.

FTFY

FTFY some more.

Fixed. Now we see the essence of these statements.

vygramul: And there's no way white supremacists would ally themselves with Asian supremacists...

Actually if you study the racial theories popular from the late 1800's and early 1900's, it was believed that the Japanese were the cream of the crop of the oriental races.

PC LOAD LETTER: We had to deal with the Japanese Navy first, who was still actively attacking us until we turned the tide, first at Midway, next at Coral Sea.

Eh?

Bukharin: vygramul: And there's no way white supremacists would ally themselves with Asian supremacists...

Actually if you study the racial theories popular from the late 1800's and early 1900's, it was believed that the Japanese were the cream of the crop of the oriental races.

By whom? Was that a Western opinion or Asian?

/Sounds like Victorian arrogance.

Lando Lincoln: We declared war on Japan. Then the Germans declared war on us, since they were allies, and then we declared war on the Germans. And we fought the Japanese from the first day of our involvement until the last day of our involvement.

You forgot Italy.

Seabon: The Nazis were beaten by the blood, sweat, and tears of the Russians. We helped, no doubt, but it was the Russians that broke the back of the Nazi war machine.

Right. The war was won at Stalingrad.

The germans made a huge mistake when they bombed Pearl Harbor.

It awoke the sleeping giant.

Well, the U.S. did have a sudden shortage of Pacific assets right around the time of the Japanese and German declarations of war.

Most of these super weapons would never be able to move through Europe - too heavy for bridges, easily stuck in mud, etc.

Here are a few pix my father took at the Krupp Werks when his Cdn Armoured Brig arrived (in tiny thin-skinned Shermans). Link (Frank's Roadtrip)

netcentric: The germans made a huge mistake when they bombed Pearl Harbor.

Germans?

TheOther: PC LOAD LETTER: We had to deal with the Japanese Navy first, who was still actively attacking us until we turned the tide, first at Midway, next at Coral Sea.

Eh?

Do you not understand and grasp the massive strategic importance of these battles? Or do you object to the bit about the Japanese Navy? Perhaps I should have been more generic and said "Japan was still expanding its empire"

Seabon: The Nazis were beaten by the blood, sweat, and tears of the Russians Russian winter. We helped, no doubt, but it was the Russians weather that broke the back of the Nazi war machine.

Hitler did not have enough vision to use the weapons, his brilliant engineers thought up, correctly.

He mad more mistakes than correct decisions as the war proceeded.


Attacking Russia was his biggest mistake.


Japan never would have won. Hitler never would have defeated the U.S. on our soil.

He could have had much of the best Europe has to offer though, but he was foolish and greedy.

I'm pretty sure one of the U-Boats shown at the beginning of this NAZI drool-fest was a Japanese model. It has room in the conning tower for a small aircraft.

netcentric: The germans made a huge mistake when they bombed Pearl Harbor.


That was the fatal error, no doubt.



/Nothing is over until we say it is!

andrewagill: netcentric: The germans made a huge mistake when they bombed Pearl Harbor.

Germans?

YES THE GERMANS!!!!!

This music makes me want to smoke a jay

/that's a bummer, man

Phil Herup: Hitler did not have enough vision to use the weapons, his brilliant engineers thought up, correctly.

He mad more mistakes than correct decisions as the war proceeded.


Attacking Russia was his biggest mistake.


Japan never would have won. Hitler never would have defeated the U.S. on our soil.

He could have had much of the best Europe has to offer though, but he was foolish and greedy.

yeah, this

lhinds: By whom? Was that a Western opinion or Asian?

Both. It's been a decade, but I still have the books somewhere from my History of Fascism class back at the university. I think it was A History of Fascism, 1914-1945 by Stanley G. Payne, but it may be one of the other books.

PC LOAD LETTER: TheOther: PC LOAD LETTER: We had to deal with the Japanese Navy first, who was still actively attacking us until we turned the tide, first at Midway, next at Coral Sea.

Eh?

Do you not understand and grasp the massive strategic importance of these battles? Or do you object to the bit about the Japanese Navy? Perhaps I should have been more generic and said "Japan was still expanding its empire"

I think maybe he was reacting to the fact that Coral Sea happened before Midway...

andrewagill: netcentric: The germans made a huge mistake when they bombed Pearl Harbor.

Germans?

Forget it...He's rolling.

andrewagill: netcentric: The germans made a huge mistake when they bombed Pearl Harbor.

Germans?

Forget it he is on a roll

RobsterCraw: but since we were always miles ahead on nukes than the Germans ever were, we still would have been able to decimate the Germans by the time 1947-48 came around.

Wrong. U.S. atomic weapons research only began after learning of the German development and grew out of a fear that they would develop a weapon first. The project fell on quite a few deaf ears in the United States until 1941-1942. Roosevelt didn't even bother sanctioning a major research group until he received the Einstein-Szilárd letter toward the end of 1939. Even after that the research groups weren't dedicated towards weapons research and actually made very little progress.

Ennuipoet: If we waited on Europe, Europe would be speaking Russian.

A good chunk of it ended up speaking Russian anyway.


Mr. Anon: German people have funny names...

Very true

PC LOAD LETTER: No, we had a totally different strategy in Europe vs. Pacific. We had to island hop through Micronesia and the Philippines so we could have a strong logistical base from which we could eventually hit the mainland. We had to deal with the Japanese Navy first, who was still actively attacking us until we turned the tide, first at Midway, next at Coral Sea. I think you can't compare one strategy to another, and I think there was not much more we could do in the Pacific beyond what we were doing due to the time it takes to rebuild the Pacific fleet.

Right. Although the idea of securing small islands wasn't a popular idea in some military circles at the time. Some thought it sacrificed too many lives for pointless tracts of land. That boils down to a personal opinion. I think it worked.

PC LOAD LETTER: As for German "superweapons", they were either not important to Hitler (like the A-bomb), or they were doomed to fail due to being so complex and slow to build, they could be overwhelmed by superior numbers (the T-34 and Sherman got creamed by the Tiger, but they still took the day). The V-3 would have been interesting and the development of jets at an earlier time could have change the air war a bit, that's for sure.

Actually atomic research was very important to the Nazis up until around 1942, where they no longer actively recruited scientists for it and shuffled the program around to the Reichsforschungsrat, which made it basically a research project and something far short of the Manhattan Project program.

However had their resources not been stretched so thin in a war on both fronts, it is entirely possible that a plutonium weapon and quite possibly a uranium weapon would have been developed. Nazi Germany didn't have the unlimited resources and free manpower to devote to the project. The United States had no aggression against it's mainland and no threat to the facilities developing the weapon. Weren't a whole lot of Nazis or Japanese attacking Tennessee or New Mexico facilities.

Also, quite a few advancements in nuclear research were made using captured scientists during the end of WWII. Nine of the prominent Uranverein scientists were sent to England.

The tank comment is very true. There were quite a few superior weapons in the Nazi arsenal, but The United States had more capacity to churn out numbers. One fantastic weapon is only so good against a dozen mediocre ones.

The V-3 is a pretty scary machine. If they'd developed it before the end of the war it would have been quite impressive. It was actually supposed to be a massive cannon that fired small rocket projectiles that would fly through the air at almost a mile per second. Would have been able to fire 300 per hour.

Seabon: The Nazis were beaten by the blood, sweat, and tears of the Russians. We helped, no doubt, but it was the Russians that broke the back of the Nazi war machine.

No, Hitler broke the back of the Nazi war machine by making insane demands during Operation Barbarossa. Had he left it to his military commanders, the operation likely would have been a success. He made the same damn mistake Napoleon did.

Hitler was an incompetent when it came to military strategy. Much of the "brilliant" moves attributed to him were actually ideas stolen from his high ranking military commanders. Thanks to his "command" of Operation Barbarossa, towards the end of it, Nazi Germany lost more soldiers to disease, famine and frostbite then it did to actual combat.

He flogged the military until it collapsed. The Russians were simply smart enough to seize on the opportunity.

Phil Herup: Hitler did not have enough vision to use the weapons, his brilliant engineers thought up, correctly.

He made more mistakes than correct decisions as the war proceeded.


Attacking Russia was his biggest mistake.


Japan never would have won. Hitler never would have defeated the U.S. on our soil.

He could have had much of the best Europe has to offer though, but he was foolish and greedy.

Yes, yes yes, yes and yes. One of the few sane posts in this thread.


It was an army of dedicated soldiers and brilliant scientists led by an utter and total fool.

I looks like what really screwed over the Germans is they lost control of their airspace. When reading about WWII it seems their grand plans are always brought to a stop when their facilities got bombed by the allies.

I think the war would still have come out the same but have lasted a lot longer if Germany had managed to defend their skies.

Then Berlin would have been the first city to get nuked.