no one is saying we will spend our way out of debt. no, you spend your way out of recession.

now, in a way that is spending your way out of worse debt, because recession leads to a loss of tax revenue which leads to debt piling on at increasing rates. but he's still mixing up terms.

That read like a boring blog post.

Penn Jillete is an old man with a goatee and a pony tail, so, keep that in mind as you read his thoughts.

He's old.

He wakes up every day, looks in the mirror and says "yep, that goatee and that pony tail are still in style."

FTA: "I way hope we're turning into a skid and not accelerating into a concrete wall."

It's obvious that Mr. Jillette never took economics. We're accelerating into the wall... no doubt about it.

Let's say that Al has $100 worth of wood and builds a table out of it. Bob comes along and buys the table for $300. Bob is (economically) even, as he traded $300 cash for a table worth $300. Al is up $200. Nobody else on earth is affected at all. $200 in new wealth is added to the GDP. Now let's say that the government taxes Al $100 and uses the money to pay a government worker or on some bailout/stimulus plan. Bob is still even, Al has $100, and the recipient of the government handout has $100. You still have only $200 added to the economy. Not one penny is added to the economy by the government's tax and spend plan. If you consider that Al would have spent the $100 on something he values and that creates profit for the seller, the tax/spend transaction is economically negative.

/we're so screwed.

ScubaDude1960: FTA: "I way hope we're turning into a skid and not accelerating into a concrete wall."

It's obvious that Mr. Jillette never took economics. We're accelerating into the wall... no doubt about it.

Let's say that Al has $100 worth of wood and builds a table out of it. Bob comes along and buys the table for $300. Bob is (economically) even, as he traded $300 cash for a table worth $300. Al is up $200. Nobody else on earth is affected at all. $200 in new wealth is added to the GDP. Now let's say that the government taxes Al $100 and uses the money to pay a government worker or on some bailout/stimulus plan. Bob is still even, Al has $100, and the recipient of the government handout has $100. You still have only $200 added to the economy. Not one penny is added to the economy by the government's tax and spend plan. If you consider that Al would have spent the $100 on something he values and that creates profit for the seller, the tax/spend transaction is economically negative.

/we're so screwed.

Where did Bob get his money to pay for the table?

ScubaDude1960: Let's say that Al has $100 worth of wood and builds a table out of it. Bob comes along and buys the table for $300. Bob is (economically) even, as he traded $300 cash for a table worth $300. Al is up $200. Nobody else on earth is affected at all. $200 in new wealth is added to the GDP. Now let's say that the government taxes Al $100 and uses the money to pay a government worker or on some bailout/stimulus plan. Bob is still even, Al has $100, and the recipient of the government handout has $100. You still have only $200 added to the economy. Not one penny is added to the economy by the government's tax and spend plan. If you consider that Al would have spent the $100 on something he values and that creates profit for the seller, the tax/spend transaction is economically negative.

/we're so screwed.

right, but your analogy in no way reflects what is going on right now. the better analogy would be that do to an imploding economy, no one wants to buy tables anymore (even as al lowers his price) because they are scared of spending money. so al can't afford to keep making tables so he no longer buys wood, which causes wood producers to go out of business, etc. so to counteract this domino effect, the government decides to buy tables from al with borrowed money to be paid back by future tax revenues (ideally with reasonable tax raises in the future) when the recessionary cycle has been averted.

he makes a good point without going over the "name calling" line.

Too bad the folks who voted for Obama can't just take the piece for what it's worth and be glad there's discussion. Nope, got to make fun of the guy's appearance... Real nice.

bradkanus: Too bad the folks who voted for Obama can't just take the piece for what it's worth and be glad there's discussion. Nope, got to make fun of the guy's appearance... Real nice.

yeah, but to be fair, he does look like a jackass.

IXI Jim IXI: I really like Penn & Teller, and they both seemed like great guys when I met them but sometimes, I think Penn just needs to take his own advice:

ScubaDude1960: /we're so screwed.

You don't really get the concept of the speed of money, do you?

Why would I listen to someone who tried to convince everyone that that dangers 2nd hand smoke was lie?

We need more insightful commentary by Vegas lounge acts. The Amazing Johnathan should get his own column.

Fart_Machine: We need more insightful commentary by Vegas lounge acts. The Amazing Johnathan should get his own column.

wait, i thought glenn beck was the amazing johnathan on a coke withdrawl.

bradkanus: he makes a good point without going over the "name calling" line.

Too bad the folks who voted for Obama can't just take the piece for what it's worth and be glad there's discussion. Nope, got to make fun of the guy's appearance... Real nice.

i actually agree with most of what he says. he actually doesn't even take a side, but you seem to read into his post that he has taken a side.

A good analogy ruined by a surplus of bs.

I don't know if Obama's actions will work.

However, one thing I'm pretty sure of. Going further into a giant high-unemployment clusterfark depression is not going to get the people behind a Penn Jillette/John Stossel big-biz-loving low-tax world-is-flat arsenic-is-your-friend Darwinian system. It never has. Socialism? Scapegoat fascism? Communism? Zombie hordes? Miltarism? Hyperinflation? Luddism? Possibly a mix of the above. Rand-topia? Pretty much never the outcome.

Editor's note: Penn Jillette -- the larger, louder half of Penn & Teller -- is a magician, comedian, actor, author and producer.

Nitpicker's note: Wouldn't he be more than half of the group if he's larger than Teller?

DrZiffle: A good analogy ruined by a surplus of bs.

He took a good analogy, then rammed it into that wall he was talking about.

Corvus: Why would I listen to someone who tried to convince everyone that that dangers 2nd hand smoke was lie?

This makes you want to review B.S. episodes with more skepticism, doesn't it?

Seriously, what the hell was that?

Lawnchair: However, one thing I'm pretty sure of. Going further into a giant high-unemployment clusterfark depression is not going to get the people behind a Penn Jillette/John Stossel big-biz-loving low-tax world-is-flat arsenic-is-your-friend Darwinian system. It never has. Socialism? Scapegoat fascism? Communism? Zombie hordes? Miltarism? Hyperinflation? Luddism? Possibly a mix of the above. Rand-topia? Pretty much never the outcome.

What I find entertaining (or would find entertaining, if the fate of the country weren't involved)is that the Republicans have offered nothing by way of alternatives short of the same old crap and, of course, name calling.

Um, so he basically spends most of the article arguing against the point he makes at the end?

/Never going to say that a person should be seen and not heard.

Anyone who's ever listened to Penn and Teller's politics would know he thinks this is probably the stupidest thing ever.

ScubaDude1960: It's obvious that Mr. Jillette never took economics. We're accelerating into the wall... no doubt about it.

Let's say that Al has $100 worth of wood and builds a table out of it

I'm sure the rest of that post was really interesting.

IXI Jim IXI: What I find entertaining (or would find entertaining, if the fate of the country weren't involved)is that the Republicans have offered nothing by way of alternatives short of the same old crap and, of course, name calling.

clearly you haven't seen the republican budget proposal.

Corvus: Why would I listen to someone who tried to convince everyone that that dangers 2nd hand smoke was lie?

This.

I have a lot of appreciation for skeptics, but sometimes Penn just says the stupidest damn things.

Fart_Machine: We need more insightful commentary by Vegas lounge acts. The Amazing Johnathan should get his own column.

i heard Carrot Top is getting his own economics radio show, right after Wayne Brady's and Celine Dion's point/counterpoint crossfire style political commentary show.

Fart_Machine: We need more insightful commentary by Vegas lounge acts. The Amazing Johnathan should get his own column.

Which still would be better than anything at the WSL or Fox News or NY Times.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_BPmqk42OkzI/RbTS6Hi3YCI/AAAAAAAAABQ/IzfpYvCRJ8s/s320/0 2.jpg

thomps: clearly you haven't seen the republican budget proposal.

Who has? Last I heard, the latest chunk they'd coughed up was "roll back the stimulus" and "tax cuts"

I assume it has plenty of circles, though...

Fart_Machine: We need more insightful commentary by Vegas lounge acts.

Speak for yourself. Personally, I'm looking forward to Sigfried & Roy's special on how to feed a cat.

IXI Jim IXI: Who has? Last I heard, the latest chunk they'd coughed up was "roll back the stimulus" and "tax cuts"

I assume it has plenty of circles, though...

yeah... i was bluffing

I'm going to hold off on my opinion of Obama's recovery plan until Carrot Top weighs in with his insight.

SMELLS LIKE HAM

thomps: yeah... i was bluffing

GODDAMN I hate April Fool's Day...

cryptozoophiliac: SMELLS LIKE HAM

Can I fark that?

IXI Jim IXI: I assume it has plenty of circles, though...

And lines.

Never forget the lines.

Fart_Machine: We need more insightful commentary by Vegas lounge acts. The Amazing Johnathan should get his own column.

I would totally read that column.

Is that good, or bad?

ScubaDude1960: FTA: "I way hope we're turig ito a skid ad ot acceleratig ito a cocrete wall."

It's obvious that Mr. Jillette ever took ecoomics. We're acceleratig ito the wall... o doubt about it.

Let's say that Al has $100 worth of wood ad builds a table out of it. Bob comes alog ad buys the table for $300. Bob is (ecoomically) eve, as he traded $300 cash for a table worth $300. Al is up $200. Nobody else o earth is affected at all. $200 i ew wealth is added to the GDP. Now let's say that the govermet taxes Al $100 ad uses the moey to pay a govermet worker or o some bailout/stimulus pla. Bob is still eve, Al has $100, ad the recipiet of the govermet hadout has $100. You still have oly $200 added to the ecoomy. Not oe pey is added to the ecoomy by the govermet's tax ad sped pla. If you cosider that Al would have spet the $100 o somethig he values ad that creates profit for the seller, the tax/sped trasactio is ecoomically egative.

/we're so screwed.

I thik I've got it... it takes the trai 45 miutes to get to Chicago, right?

/I was told there would be o math.

ScubaDude1960: FTA: "I way hope we're turning into a skid and not accelerating into a concrete wall."

It's obvious that Mr. Jillette never took economics. We're accelerating into the wall... no doubt about it.

Let's say that Al has $100 worth of wood and builds a table out of it. Bob comes along and buys the table for $300. Bob is (economically) even, as he traded $300 cash for a table worth $300. Al is up $200. Nobody else on earth is affected at all. $200 in new wealth is added to the GDP. Now let's say that the government taxes Al $100 and uses the money to pay a government worker or on some bailout/stimulus plan. Bob is still even, Al has $100, and the recipient of the government handout has $100. You still have only $200 added to the economy. Not one penny is added to the economy by the government's tax and spend plan. If you consider that Al would have spent the $100 on something he values and that creates profit for the seller, the tax/spend transaction is economically negative.

/we're so screwed.

So let's say that the government gives Charlie that $100 to build a road. Charlie builds the road, and Al takes that road over to Dave's house with a brand new table in the back that he built for $100 and plans to sell to Dave for $300. Oh, and while he's over there, he'll stop by Eddie's house next door. Eddie said he wanted some chairs, and Al just made some chairs for $20 that he could sell to Eddie for $50. And hey, maybe Frank will want to place some orders, you know, while he's in the neighborhood...

Once Al has made all those sales, he'll be far more ahead than he was before the road was built. And yet he'll probably still be biatching about the $100 that the government "stole" from the money he got from Bob.

I want the 2 minutes back I wasted reading that steaming pile of shiat.

MorrisBird: IXI Jim IXI: I assume it has plenty of circles, though...

And lines.

Never forget the lines.

The lines are important, otherwise we wouldn't know how to connect the circles. We might think tax cuts lead to a kid with a broken arm, while energy efficiency leads to a happy family and for some reason health care reform will result in exactly 1 windmill.

bradkanus: he makes a good point without going over the "name calling" line.

Too bad the folks who voted for Obama can't just take the piece for what it's worth and be glad there's discussion. Nope, got to make fun of the guy's appearance... Real nice.

This. And they always hate my well reasoned arguments on the ugliness of NANCY PELOSI!!! I hate those LIBTARDS so much.

krelborne: Corvus: Why would I listen to someone who tried to convince everyone that that dangers 2nd hand smoke was lie?

This makes you want to review B.S. episodes with more skepticism, doesn't it?

Seriously, what the hell was that?

a 1% increase in cancer due to second hand smoke is a statistical insignificance..

WaltzingMathilda: for some reason health care reform will result in exactly 1 windmill.

At which the Republicans fully intend to tilt.

Rapmaster2000: This. And they always hate my well reasoned arguments on the ugliness of NANCY PELOSI!!! I hate those LIBTARDS so much.

Well, to be fair, Nancy Pelosi has enough ugly to derail several arguments...

James F. Campbell: Corvus: Why would I listen to someone who tried to convince everyone that that dangers 2nd hand smoke was lie?

This.

I have a lot of appreciation for skeptics, but sometimes Penn just says the stupidest damn things.

Believing things just because they are counter to the mainstream is just as stupid as believing in things just because they are part of the mainstream.

bradkanus: Too bad the folks who voted for Obama can't just take the piece for what it's worth and be glad there's discussion.

You mean like if George Clooney or Sean Penn had written it? I think I've got it - actors = no, magicians = ok

Nope, got to make fun of the guy's appearance... Real nice.

Michael Moore. Guys are either unqualified to comment because they're fat and ugly or they aren't.

IXI Jim IXI: What I find entertaining (or would find entertaining, if the fate of the country weren't involved)is that the Republicans have offered nothing by way of alternatives short of the same old crap and, of course, name calling.

Why should they? Since this is analogy day have you ever had a girlfriend that decides some other guy is 'the one'? Sure you can create all sorts of graphs and tables, make all sorts of arguments, plead for attention, bad-mouth at every opportunity, etc. etc. etc.

Or, you can wait. With nearly a million freshly un-employed every month, and such a wide divergence of opinion as to what is the right direction, the Republicans only need to sit on their hands and wait.

IXI Jim IXI: I really like Penn & Teller, and they both seemed like great guys when I met them but sometimes, I think Penn just needs to take his own advice: until they say something I don't agree with.

FTFY.

I've never seen anything on Fark but accolades for P&T - and then there's this thread.

Perhaps you folks need to re-evaluate how polarized you are politically.

IXI Jim IXI: really like Penn & Teller, and they both seemed like great guys when I met them but sometimes, I think Penn just needs to take his own advice:



Those are great pics you have on your profile.


I like Penn. He hates bullshiat. I don't think anyone could ever shut him up.


IXI Jim IXI: Well, to be fair, Nancy Pelosi has enough ugly to derail several arguments...


Yeah but she does have mega-huge boobs. Big boobs go a long way.