Don't let the door hit you.

As a modern "liberal" I'd like to be able to make a donation to cover their moving expenses if someone would set up the fund.

I don't think they've put much thought into just how leftist (and corrupt) the government is there.

We already discussed this. Costa Rica's Constitution sucks. Now moving to Nevis (next to St. Kitt's), then helping Nevis exercise its' right to secede, then setting up a new nation founded upon traditional personal freedoms, strong property rights, and free market ideals, that's the way to go.

God Speed, gentlemen. Take as many right-wingers as you can fit into your vehicles.

I thought their ilk preferred Venezuela or Argentina...

But honestly...most of these people don't have passports, do they?

there is something VERY wrong with the formatting on that page. the ads on the left hand side are smack dab in the middle of the article.

that could just be the fact that i'm stuck using a crappy browser at work right now.

KIA: and free market ideals,

You do that. And when your economy tanks because those free-market captains of industry have looted it for everything they could and left town, enjoy your squalor.

The left's threat was always more of a threat to hold its breath if it didn't get its way. The concerns of Dreher's friends seem to have little to do with the election and far more to do with the results of Obama's policies.

You farking morons. Do you *honestly* think that we hated George Bush because he was a republican? or because he couldn't say "nuclear"? or because he was from Texas? or because John Fng Kerry was such a great option?

After 9/11 Bush had a 90% approval rating. I'm a filthy liberal and I was rooting for him. I watched every word of his for months, I needed him to succeed at this, even though I didn't vote for him.

By 2004, when people said they would "move to Canada" they were worried that Bush's second term would somehow be worse than his first.

And they were right.

KIA: a new nation founded upon traditional personal freedoms, strong property rights, and free market ideals,

And a whole lotta Lord...
bwaaaaawwwhhhhh...
Got a whole lotta Lord....
bwaaaaawwwhhhhh...
Want a whole lotta Lord....

KIA: new nation founded upon traditional personal freedoms, strong property rights, and free market ideals, that's the way to go.

You know what we should really deregulate?

The mortgage industry. and banking. and insurance companies. What could happen?

Yes. What angry cushion-sniffing crusaders need is easier access to primo coffee.

Dinki: KIA: and free market ideals,

You do that. And when your economy tanks because those free-market captains of industry have looted it for everything they could and left town, enjoy your squalor.

Then it's just time to blame someone else for the failure and move again. Rinse and... well, you know.

what_now: Don't let the door hit you.

Done in one.

/But would anyone else put up with them?

Need help packing?

what_now: You know what we should really deregulate?

The mortgage industry. and banking. and insurance companies. What could happen?

it wasn't that the mortgage industry was deregulated. It was that regulators forgot that they had to ride herd on the Gordon Gecko types. Instead, they started investing with them and looking the other way. If we'd actually enforced laws that were on the books, it's likely that our situation would be greatly improved over what it is now.

i'm as much a free market libertarian as you can get, but even I can see SOME regulation as a necessary evil. But we have WAY too many people who see 'regulation' not as a necessary evil but as a means of control and/or social engineering. By (ab)using regulatory agencies they hope to create an artifical situation that favors their particular ideology. THAT is what's causing our problem.

monkeyman3875: what_now: Don't let the door hit you.

Done in one.

/But would anyone else put up with them?

yay! Draka! yay!

gold standard slave economy ftw!

KIA: then setting up a new nation founded upon traditional personal freedoms, strong property rights, and free market ideals, that's the way to go.

Yeah, America already attempted that in Latin America. Many CIA-sponsored coups and disappeared bodies thrown out of planes later, most countries resoundingly said "fark you" to that neoliberal idea so why don't you take your free market ideals to a place like Afghanistan? After all, it's a good example of what can happen without any government controls.

Weaver95: it wasn't that the mortgage industry was deregulated. It was that regulators forgot that they had to ride herd on the Gordon Gecko types. Instead, they started investing with them and looking the other way. If we'd actually enforced laws that were on the books, it's likely that our situation would be greatly improved over what it is now.

Ok, but having regulation that doesn't work is the same as having no regulation.

The government exists ONLY to benefit the citizens. Investigating Bernie Maddoff and AGI would have benefited the citizens.

At this point, something no one is talking about is making financial education a priority in middle school and high school.

My final project for my Master's degree (in education) was to create a portable education plan for high school sophomores about student loan debt. I did some research into what students are currently being taught about finances. Turns out, under NCLB, students need to pass certain tests. Whatever isn't on that test (like the theory of compound interest) doesn't get taught.

People keep talking about how to keep the BANKS from offering stupid loans again, but how about we educate the citizens so they know not to sign?

Moving out of the country to avoid a politician is stupid. Period.

Unless the politician is Hitler, Pol Pot, that sort of guy.

Dinki: You do that. And when your economy tanks because those free-market captains of industry have looted it for everything they could and left town, enjoy your squalor.

You know what? Real captains of industry believe in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Henry Ford paid his workers almost double the going rate at the time so they could afford their own product. Here's a snippet:

The $5-a-day Workday
After the success of the moving assembly line, Henry Ford had another transformative idea: in January 1914, he startled the world by announcing that Ford Motor Company would pay $5 a day to its workers. The pay increase would also be accompanied by a shorter workday (from nine to eight hours). While this rate didn't automatically apply to every worker, it more than doubled the average autoworker's wage. While Henry's primary objective was to reduce worker attrition-labor turnover from monotonous assembly line work was high-newspapers from all over the world reported the story as an extraordinary gesture of goodwill.

Thousands of Workers Flock to Detroit
After Ford's announcement, thousands of prospective workers showed up at the Ford Motor Company employment office. People surged toward Detroit from the American South and the nations of Europe. As expected, employee turnover diminished. And, by creating an eight-hour day, Ford could run three shifts instead of two, increasing productivity. Henry Ford had reasoned that since it was now possible to build inexpensive cars in volume, more of them could be sold if employees could afford to buy them. The $5 day helped better the lot of all American workers and contributed to the emergence of the American middle class. In the process, Henry Ford had changed manufacturing forever.

what_now: You know what we should really deregulate?

The mortgage industry. and banking. and insurance companies. What could happen?

Yes, we should. Government regulations, guarantees, implied insurance and backing gave people a false sense of security in these types of business. This led to bad investment decisions, ridiculous levels of risk-taking and general stupidity. Without that government interference, people take risk a lot more seriously and are a lot more careful.

They should move to the Cayman's, where they keep their money.

thalassatx: Unless the politician is Hitler, Pol Pot, that sort of guy.

Yeah...these have you been listening to some of the whargarrble coming out of AM radio? Obama may not be Hitler, but he sure as hell is Stalin.

coco ebert: America already attempted that in Latin America. Many CIA-sponsored coups and disappeared bodies thrown out of planes later

Your reading-fu is weak. I'm not talking about a coup or overthrow of an existing government. I'm talking about the democratic exercise of an existing right for Nevis to secede. There is not one dead body in this proposition.

KIA: You know what? Real captains of industry believe in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Henry Ford paid his workers almost double the going rate at the time so they could afford their own product. Here's a snippet:

We don't have Henry Ford. We have John Thaine.

what_now: We don't have Henry Ford. We have John Thaine.

On January 27, 2009, New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo issued a subpoena to John Thain in a probe into the bonuses he paid and received just days before the Bank of America takeover. Charges of criminal fraud against those involved in the payouts could be brought under the 1921 Martin Act.

Maybe once we finish prosecuting the criminals there will be room for businesspeople of integrity and compassion once again.

what_now: Ok, but having regulation that doesn't work is the same as having no regulation.

The government exists ONLY to benefit the citizens. Investigating Bernie Maddoff and AGI would have benefited the citizens.

No, it would have made government employees look bad. Wasn't one of the SEC investigators banging madoff's cousin at the time?

People keep talking about how to keep the BANKS from offering stupid loans again, but how about we educate the citizens so they know not to sign?

As a culture, we don't encourage introspection. we don't encourage people to really think ahead. 10 minutes of watching TV and you can figure out that it's the bigger, flashier 'next generation' thing that we want. Historical perspective? BORING! personal responsiblity? oh HELLS no!

Can we change that? got me. Personally, I think we need to be hit very hard by the consequences of our own bad decisions before we'll change. But I could be wrong about that.

KIA: what_now: We don't have Henry Ford. We have John Thaine.

On January 27, 2009, New York Attorney General Andrew Cuomo issued a subpoena to John Thain in a probe into the bonuses he paid and received just days before the Bank of America takeover. Charges of criminal fraud against those involved in the payouts could be brought under the 1921 Martin Act.

Maybe once we finish prosecuting the criminals there will be room for businesspeople of integrity and compassion once again.

God, I hope so. However, this whole thing is making Andrew Cuomo's political career, and that upsets me, because I truly hate him

Too bad the article wasn't talking about neocons... and too bad there wasn't any real truth to it. We could do without any neocons in our country... actually... the world could do without any neocons in general.

KIA: Maybe once we finish prosecuting the criminals there will be room for businesspeople of integrity and compassion once again.

Ever sit through a presentation on corporate ethics? My last such torture session lasted about 2 hours. It was immediately followed by a discussion on how to move more material resources to our chinese operations and how productivity over there goes much easier without having to deal with those pesky OSHA or EPA regs getting in the way. apparently, it's considered entirely ethical to rape the environment and lie to our customers about how 'green' we are here in the states.

Weaver95: As a culture, we don't encourage introspection. we don't encourage people to really think ahead. 10 minutes of watching TV and you can figure out that it's the bigger, flashier 'next generation' thing that we want. Historical perspective? BORING! personal responsiblity? oh HELLS no!

Can we change that? got me. Personally, I think we need to be hit very hard by the consequences of our own bad decisions before we'll change. But I could be wrong about that.

In World War II this country came together. We planted gardens, we rationed gas, we stopped using sugar, coffee, silk etc etc.

Can we get that back?

Weaver95: corporate ethics

Those two words do not belong next to each other.

what_now: In World War II this country came together. We planted gardens, we rationed gas, we stopped using sugar, coffee, silk etc etc.

Can we get that back?

See... in WWII we had a common enemy. The problem with us coming together now is Republicans think everyone is the enemy... Including every American who isn't a Republican.

KIA: Yes, we should. Government regulations, guarantees, implied insurance and backing gave people a false sense of security in these types of business. This led to bad investment decisions, ridiculous levels of risk-taking and general stupidity. Without that government interference, people take risk a lot more seriously and are a lot more careful.

You really are delusional. I hope people like you hightail it out of America because- and I don't say this often- it's people that think like you that have brought this country to ruin. And take that troll Phil Gramm with you.

what_now: Can we get that back?

we're too divided a nation right now. the liberals think socialism is a magic cure for what ails us, the republicans went all captain ahab on us once Obama got elected and the conservatives are busy re-enacting the stalin purges of the mid-1930's to focus on the future.

I think we're losing the ability to have a frank and open discussion. we're too afraid of offending someone to admit we have serious problems that need fixing. just look at the war on drugs - we can't even admit that our ONLY option is to legalize cannabis. But if you admit that in public, you will *never* get elected to any sort of public office.

Weaver95: But we have WAY too many people who see 'regulation' not as a necessary evil but as a means of control and/or social engineering.

But aren't you advocating its use to control Gordon Gecko types? Is not preventing disaster a form of "social engineering"?

I don't automatically have a problem with social engineering. The probelm isn't inherent to social engineering. The problem is that it's currently incompetent social engineers running the circus.

Weaver95: we can't even admit that our ONLY option is to legalize cannabis.

No, it's not our only option; it may be the most sensible, but that's an entirely different matter.

abb3w: But aren't you advocating its use to control Gordon Gecko types? Is not preventing disaster a form of "social engineering"?

No, you construct your government policy with the basic assumption that regulators and regulated alike are going to eventually try to corrupt the system to their benefit. that's just a basic assumption for ALL effective government policy.

I don't automatically have a problem with social engineering. The probelm isn't inherent to social engineering. The problem is that it's currently incompetent social engineers running the circus.

Oh yes, regulating human behavior via legislative fiat just worked out SO well in the past....remember prohibition? that little bit o' social engineering went just spiffy, didn't it?

abb3w: Weaver95: we can't even admit that our ONLY option is to legalize cannabis.

No, it's not our only option; it may be the most sensible, but that's an entirely different matter.

*sigh*

no, it's really our only option. when its possible for a cannabis user to end up with more jail time than a murderer, the law is out of control.

Weaver95: No, you construct your government policy with the basic assumption that regulators and regulated alike are going to eventually try to corrupt the system to their benefit.

How is the design of a government not a form of "social engineering"?



Weaver95: that little bit o' social engineering went just spiffy, didn't it?

I didn't say the current incompetents were the only incompetents. I would agree that is another good example of incompetent social engineering.

Weaver95: no, it's really our only option.

Nonesense. For example, we also could try making a moat of CheezeWiz between the US and Mexico. It wouldn't help, and it's a stupid option, but it's an option.

abb3w: Weaver95: No, you construct your government policy with the basic assumption that regulators and regulated alike are going to eventually try to corrupt the system to their benefit.

How is the design of a government not a form of "social engineering"?

ok, fine - if you want to call government a social engineering project that go RIGHT ahead with your bad self.

KIA: You know what? Real captains of industry believe in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Henry Ford paid his workers almost double the going rate at the time so they could afford their own product.

Henry Ford was sued and lost for not trying to maximize his profits. The minority shareholders in his company got an injunction preventing him from running his company the way he wanted to.

There aren't "real" captains of industry in the way that you seem to want. They don't exist, and when they do, they always lose. The system as it stands rewards the least ethical behavior you can get away with.

what_now Obama may not be Hitler, but he sure as hell is Stalin.

Your analogies are so wise and well informed. You're a genius!

Stalin - wiped out the political leadership of the party that had had any connection to the 1917 revolution itself, through the use of coerced confessions and summary executions. Just like Obama!

Stalin - sent millions to forced labor camps. Just like Obama!

Stalin - is directly responsible for murdering 20 million of his own people, including 8 million Ukrainians. Just like Obama!

Gawd dam yer sooo smart. Why can't everyone see these how Stalin and Obama are just the same! I feel stoopider for even reading your much better thought out observations.
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Obama - black. Just like Stalin!

Weaver95: ok, fine - if you want to call government a social engineering project that go RIGHT ahead with your bad self.

Well, it's only "engineering" if the government is the result of a plan. Otherwise, it's merely a social evolution.

Aside from that, I'd rather you explain why you say a deliberately choosing the form(s) of government isn't "social engineering". I might learn something.

You seem more to be conveying that the scope of the project should be limited and should avoid certain undertakings. This, however, is a design decision. Which means while condemning the practice, you yourself by that very condemnation are attempting to practice something I would consider "social engineering" (implementing deliberate choice for the intended purpose of shaping of the nature of society).

what_now: In World War II this country came together. We planted gardens, we rationed gas, we stopped using sugar, coffee, silk etc etc.

I saw some of the Freepers mocking Michelle Obama for planting an organic vegetable garden at the White House, and that just floored me. Is planting a garden for fresh vegetables as well as perhaps inspiring others to do the same worthy of mockery? Are there really people that don't realize that vegetables come from places other than the local grocery store?

Hey Freepers--we grow tomatoes and different spices here at my apartment. Mock away, idiots.

KIA: You know what? Real captains of industry believe in a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. Henry Ford paid his workers almost double the going rate at the time so they could afford their own product. Here's a snippet:

Ford was a crazy bastard, would fire his employees for having a beer at home(he did spot checks), had his infamous "service department" Beat up and in at least one case beat to death labor organizers.

He gladly took an award from Hitler.

Weaver95: the liberals think socialism is a magic cure for what ails us

I don't think that's exactly true. I think the bailouts, as distasteful as they are to me, are necessary in some of these specific instances. No one calls it "socialism" when the FDIC steps in and takes over a bank and gets it back up and running again.

I think that socialized health care makes perfect sense. The primary function of a government if to protect its citizens and make sure that it continues in perpetuity, and keeping citizens healthy seems like a logical extension of that mantra.

Of course, as I always say, "I want government funded and run health care...just not this government/" Mind you, I've been saying that for more than ten years now, so that's three different administrations I've meant it about.