The best part of all this is that taxing benefits is exactly what McCain proposed in the campaign.

/McCain was right on this one

bimalc: The best part of all this is that taxing benefits is exactly what McCain proposed in the campaign.

/McCain was right on this one

and the even better part is that we won't have to hear the "conservatives" screaming about this because it was their guy's idea originally.

Yeah, the unions who own all those Democratic members of congress will not let this one fly.

Mordant: and the even better part is that we won't have to hear the "conservatives" screaming about this because it was their guy's idea originally.

Please tell me you're joking.

whomever votes in favor of this proposal earns my undying hatred.

It's bad enough that the US is only one of two countries in the western world (Switzerland being the other) that has employers provide health insurance, now we're going to be taxed to obtain the insurance so we can obtain care in the massive suckage that is the American health care system?

Grrr...

Congressmen who support socialized medicine (and the Obama family) should also pledge to use only the same healthcare that will be available to the average veteran. Walk the walk biatches.

/Also, Henry Waxman's nostril is huge and disgusting, just like his visions of gov't control

Well it sort of makes sense. If the government provides insurance, why would it give you a tax break on your employer insurance? The whole point of making healthcare benefits tax-free is to make it so people have more healthcare. That's not necessary if the government creates a safety net.

Il Douchey: Congressmen who support socialized medicine (and the Obama family) should also pledge to use only the same health care that will be available to the average veteran. Walk the walk biatches.

My husband and I had that very same thought. If congress votes for socialized medicine, then they had better be forced to use the same system the rest of us get stuck with when they get sick. They can write it into the bill.

DamnYankees: Well it sort of makes sense. If the government provides insurance, why would it give you a tax break on your employer insurance? The whole point of making healthcare benefits tax-free is to make it so people have more healthcare. That's not necessary if the government creates a safety net.

that is a brilliant troll!

I never understood why benefits aren't taxed. Isn't it part of your employer's compensation package?

All things considering, you all have got to find the money somewhere without borrowing anymore (as if that were possible...I still get headaches thinking about how many hoops you all must jump through to keep borrowing money).

eddyatwork: I never understood why benefits aren't taxed. Isn't it part of your employer's compensation package?

Medical expenses above a certain level are tax exempt.

CanadianCommie: you all have got to find the money somewhere without borrowing anymore

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Is there a detailed plan on this whole "tax health care benefits" deal or is this one of those things we don't hear about until it's been made a law?

/Maybe a detailed explanation?

Mordant: bimalc: The best part of all this is that taxing benefits is exactly what McCain proposed in the campaign.

/McCain was right on this one

and the even better part is that we won't have to hear the "conservatives" screaming about this because it was their guy's idea originally.

Er, there's a reason more people didn't vote for McCain. Ideas like this are why he wasn't elected.

EatHam: eddyatwork: I never understood why benefits aren't taxed. Isn't it part of your employer's compensation package?

Medical expenses above a certain level are tax exempt.

Only above 7.5% of AGI. Most people won't get to that level of medical expenses in the average year.

I wonder if they'll have exemptions for military personnel. See how well that goes over. Not that there's anything wrong with exemptions for military personnel, I think they should be excluded from federal taxation entirely, at least on income from the government. But if GS and military don't get taxed on their health benefits, that's really going to piss a lot of people off.

bimalc: The best part of all this is that taxing benefits is exactly what McCain proposed in the campaign.

/McCain was right on this one

No he wasn't. Taxing medical benefits only makes sense when you combine it with federally gauranteed insurance. McCain only wanted to tax it and give you a tax credit in return.

God, this whole health care "reform" is going to be a bloated, impossible to understand, ridiculously expensive cockup.

Why. Can't. We. Just. Go. Single-payer.

I mean, yeah, it'll be a big jump during the switchover, but any other "solution" is going to be labyrinthine in the extreme.

Yeah, the same thing that Barry ripped McCain about except McCain was going to give the tax breaks that employers get to individual workers; Barry is just going to tax us on our insurance and eliminate the tax break.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake,
America

Goddammit. Throw out every illegal and their worthless anchor babies for stealing care and driving up our premiums and we won't need gov't to get involved in heathcare.

Another farking tax to my employer? More layoffs, coming up!

How about to pay for Obama's healthcare overhaul, they just raise business taxes?

Universal health care, if it's done right, will save a lot of money for businesses on providing health insurance for their employees. Basic health insurance shouldn't be a business cost to begin with.

Of course, this will never fly in America because for most Americans, if you say "tax business", for the reaction you get, you may as well be telling them "Hey, can you tell your daughter me and the gay tentacle monster are up for another threesome with her, but only if she promises to dress up as a spider monkey wearing a ballgag? Kthx."

thalassatx: Mordant: bimalc: The best part of all this is that taxing benefits is exactly what McCain proposed in the campaign.

/McCain was right on this one

and the even better part is that we won't have to hear the "conservatives" screaming about this because it was their guy's idea originally.

Er, there's a reason more people didn't vote for McCain. Ideas like this are why he wasn't elected.

Are you sure it wasn't the human parody he chose for a running mate? Or the fact that he was being sandbagged by eight years of the Bush administration, whose chickens started to come home to roost a few months before the election? Or the fact that the man is older than the glaciers? I think all of those had something to do with it.

Why don't you put some more taxes on my taxes there Washington?

And then go Fark yourselves. With this here pitchfork I picked out for you...

bobbette: "Hey, can you tell your daughter me and the gay tentacle monster are up for another threesome with her, but only if she promises to dress up as a spider monkey wearing a ballgag? Kthx."

I lol'd. Thank you!

mfaby: Yeah, the same thing that Barry ripped McCain about except McCain was going to give the tax breaks that employers get to individual workers; Barry is just going to tax us on our insurance and eliminate the tax break.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake,
America

Oh if only we had elected a geriatric basket case with anger management issues and his evangelical sidekick...

Those bastards!

mfaby: Yeah, the same thing that Barry ripped McCain about except McCain was going to give the tax breaks that employers get to individual workers; Barry is just going to tax us on our insurance and eliminate the tax break.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake,
America

So Congress is now Obama?

I have an even better plan that will make it more affordable to provide health coverage.

Dump the old folks. That's right, cut them off. At age 65 you're off private care and you are now on a Federal Health Maintainence Organization. Because at that point, health problems go from being unlikely events from which you can be made whole to chronic ailments that will plague you until you are pushing up daisies. The risk associated with this group is extreme and the likelihood of major, expensive, problems is almost certain.

Personally I'm all about taxing benefits simply because it will create a more level playing field. Right now many big employers provide large health care plans simply because they aren't taxed. Providing these plans allows you to pay X+Y but only get taxed at level of Y for social security taxes and other purposes. For the smaller business who can not afford to be paying out insurance they get taxed on the full amount of compensation even if their employee goes out and purchases insurance themselves. What more working for an employee that does pay for insurance its rare that the employee will let you out of the insurance program and pay you comparable wages even if you are already covered by your spouce or something else.

Things just keep getting more and more interesting!
RevMercutio: mfaby: Yeah, the same thing that Barry ripped McCain about except McCain was going to give the tax breaks that employers get to individual workers; Barry is just going to tax us on our insurance and eliminate the tax break.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake,
America

So Congress is now Obama?

Good point. In my honest opinion I think that Obama isnt at fault for alot of the farkups that have happened under his very young administration. It honestly seems to me that alot of it is Nancy Pelosi and to a lesser degree Harry Reid that are pushing through alot of this.

Lets give Obama an honest chance, but throw Pelosi and Reid out on their asses at the first opportunity.

How else would he pay for the unicorns? Those things aren't that expensive but it's the shipping that gets ya.

RevMercutio: So Congress is now Obama?

So Fark Independents^TM are now capable of rational thought?

/think about who you're dealing with, and manage your expectations

Considering taxing worker's healthcare benefits? Sure-fire political suicide. It's not going to happen. I've considered bending Salma Hayek over and slamming her like a screen door in a hurricane, but that's not gonna happen either.

MindStalker: Right now many big employers provide large health care plans simply because they aren't taxed.

Yes, boardrooms across America are filled with chatter about how their company may as well go ahead and spend an extra $25,000 per family because, hey, it's not taxed!

Enjoy Cons.

You earned it.

mfaby: Yeah, the same thing that Barry ripped McCain about except McCain was going to give the tax breaks that employers get to individual workers; Barry is just going to tax us on our insurance and eliminate the tax break.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake,
America

You sound like you need a nappie, poor wittle butthurt ditto head

The End is Near: bobbette: Of course, this will never fly in America because for most Americans, if you say "tax business", for the reaction you get, you may as well be telling them "Hey, can you tell your daughter me and the gay tentacle monster are up for another threesome with her, but only if she promises to dress up as a spider monkey wearing a ballgag? Kthx."

That's because broadly taxing businesses is essentially the same thing as raising the cost of doing business. By cutting their after-tax revenue, you give them a clear and present incentive to raise prices for the consumer to counter-act their losses to the taxman.

It'd be better to do away with all income taxes, corporate and personal, and go with tariffs and a progressive capital gains tax. The corporate income tax is a regressive tax on consumers, much like a flat sales tax.

Yes, but if you are simultaneously LOWERING the cost of doing business by allowing companies to scrap health insurance costs, they will actually SAVE MONEY. Which means there is no excuse or rationale to push increased costs on to the consumer.

Not to mention, there will be the economic benefits to employers of a healthier and more productive labor force, which you can expect if everyone had access to primary health care. And the overall reduction in costs to all taxpayers from people switching away from using emergency rooms as primary health care when they don't have insurance.

Finally, businesses receive quite a lot of government subsidization in the US. It's not unreasonable to expect them to pay their share in, as well as taking out bailouts, subsidies, tax incentives and credits, patents on products developed with federal R&D funding, etc.

I voted for Obama in 2008, would consider Palin in 2012 if he starts doing shiat like this. Of course, by 2012, unemployment might be 30%, so it might not matter.

Except of course if you look at what happened in Massachusetts private companies will bail out of the health care arena and employers will be buying up the state insurance policies

those taxes will have to come from somewhere folks...

Mordant: and the even better part is that we won't have to hear the "conservatives" screaming about this because it was their guy's idea originally.

Hahaha, no. McCain was not "our guy", you are not sticking Conservatives with McCain. Republicans sure, but not Conservatives.

I think it's not "Obama's" healthcare overhall. I don't think he's anything but a puppet for the democrat's entrenched Washington power structure. The guy has next to no political experience. He was somebody the democrats could run against McCain. He'll get the credit or take the blame for the next 4 or 8 years, but he won't be making the decisions.

AGH.

For fark's sake! This is why the Democrats piss me off. They'll make haphazard improvements but twist themselves and their work into knots to keep the Republicans (and Blue Dog Dems) from crying socialism, so we end up with these half-implemented "market-based" abominations that end up costing more than doing it the right way would.

Dems, guys: They are already calling you commies. They will keep doing it no matter what you do. Suck it up, do it right, the country will thank you and you won't end up having to make unpopular moves like this to keep the shambling monstrosities on life support.

chicagogasman: mfaby: Yeah, the same thing that Barry ripped McCain about except McCain was going to give the tax breaks that employers get to individual workers; Barry is just going to tax us on our insurance and eliminate the tax break.

One
Big
Ass
Mistake,
America

You sound like you need a nappie, poor wittle butthurt ditto head

His argument isn't simply refuted by stooping to his level. Both of you are the reason that political discourse in this country has devolved from true statesmen debating topics of the greater good to SUNDAY NIGHT MUDWRESTLING ON THE HILL! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!

Both of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Anonymity on the internet can be a great thing, but to use it in a political discussion to do nothing but offer up your own stupid rebuttal to a point that shouldn't have even been discussed given the way that he ended his comment, is stupid in and of itself.

/And now i've spent wayyy more time on this than I should have.
//Back to your regularly scheduled poo flinging and flame war.

KiwDaWabbit: I voted for Obama in 2008, would consider Palin in 2012 if he starts doing shiat like this. Of course, by 2012, unemployment might be 30%, so it might not matter.

And by "doing shiat like this", I of course mean "signs a bill that Congress passes", let alone set a policy or otherwise make a suggestion that Congress should construct or pass such a bill on top of that.

mfaby: Yeah, the same thing that Barry ripped McCain about except McCain was going to give the tax breaks that employers get to individual workers; Barry is just going to tax us on our insurance and eliminate the tax break.


Sounds like a bipartisan compromise to me.

KiwDaWabbit: I voted for Obama in 2008, would consider Palin in 2012 if he starts doing shiat like this. Of course, by 2012, unemployment might be 30%, so it might not matter.

I would vote for Palin in 2012 under the following conditions:

1. Voting was made mandatory under penalty of PMITA prison

2. The choice was between her, Rush Limbaugh, and Michelle Bachman only.

The_Six_Fingered_Man: His argument isn't simply refuted by stooping to his level. Both of you are the reason that political discourse in this country has devolved from true statesmen debating topics of the greater good to SUNDAY NIGHT MUDWRESTLING ON THE HILL! SUNDAY SUNDAY SUNDAY!

Both of you should be ashamed of yourselves. Anonymity on the internet can be a great thing, but to use it in a political discussion to do nothing but offer up your own stupid rebuttal to a point that shouldn't have even been discussed given the way that he ended his comment, is stupid in and of itself.

/And now i've spent wayyy more time on this than I should have.
//Back to your regularly scheduled poo flinging and flame war.

While I agree with you that political discourse in this country is fickle and mind-numbing, I disagree with the implication that there was such a thing as "the good old days". "The good old days" consisted of only white land owners having the right to vote. Maybe we need the electorate whittled down to an oligarchy of some kind and that will make things better. I mean, everyone sees how that general mode of operation in the power department has done for the country.

My general opinion, and I hope I'm wrong, is that the U.S. has had it's run and it's all downhill from here. There's no Superman who is going to save the day. The rest of the world caught up while we got fat, dumb, and lazy. Call me someone with a lack of vision, but I just don't see it turning around. My generation will do worse than their parents and so on.