Christopher Hitchens hates black people.

It seems excessively silly to talk about false accusations and portrayals of evil in the media in a conversation about Bin Laden and his associates. They admitted to it. They want to do it again. They want to do things far worse.

What was Hitchens supposed to say?

Mos Def comes off as a MORAN. But I still like my Black Star CD because I'm white (new window).

Mos Def would make (might be?) an awesome Fark troll.

MD: Vague rambling question.

CH: Attempt at simplest answer.

MD: Restatement of question.

CH: Attempt to expand question so as to provide more complete answer.

MD: Redirect to specific language used.

CH: Explanation of concept of "synonyms".

MD: Restatement of question stressing importance of specific language used, while at the same time swapping out main subject for completely different proper noun.

You're shiattin' me, right? Am I the only one who has seen this dance a million times on the politics tab?

Hitchens is an ass... you gotta go a way to make him look reasonable. Well done, Mr. Def.

I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

/applicable in any Hitchens thread. No other context required.

i call bullshiat.

if there were a 'terrorist' organization with plans for the demise of the us...they would have had their ducks in a row, long before 9/11.

where is the massive follow up?

certainly they would have had a plan "b".

-they fail our kings test.

where are the suicide bombers when you need them?

the war on terror is as big of a lie as the 'war on drugs'.

-fark this trainwreck.

fear is your mindkiller, not mine.

go israel!...go wal-mart!

Ahhh_Ennui: I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

Hitchens may be an asshole, but he has a tendency to be right about a whole boatload of things.

Mos lost me when he said "I won't believe any of you, the media, or translators". Then why are you there asking questions?

Sybilll: Mos lost me when he said "I won't believe any of you, the media, or translators". Then why are you there asking questions?

Clearly, Mos Def was in over his head, and was trying to nudge the discussion toward making it sound like Hitchens was assassinating his character.

I don't know much about Mr. Hitchens, but he seems logical, blunt and fair.

Sorry, Mr. Def.

/still like your music
//sometimes

Mr. Definitely is a weak thinker.

I don't know why, but this seems somehow somewhat relevant:



/Bill Maher on Al'Qaeda, "They're bad motherf*ckers." NICE.

eqtworld: Can someone explain to me why Hitler was bad and what was his political objective?

* thinks for self *

I can't know. I don't speak German and all the translations of his speeches are probably wrong. Plus I never SAW him do anything bad. Did anybody here SEE him do anything bad? I didn't think so... Even if you did, how do I know YOU aren't biased and lying?

Hitler was probably a cool mofo to hang wit' and smoke a bowl or two. He just got a bad rap, that's all!

/takin' the unpopular line FTW

*brain explodes on taking this line of thinking*

kronicfeld: Ahhh_Ennui: I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

Hitchens may be an asshole, but he has a tendency to be right about a whole boatload of things.

that pretty much sums it up

Mos is awesome and funny, but really really wrong and uninformed on this topic, due to his own religious bias.

I was only able to watch that until Mos Def was talking about if the Taliban had a manifesto and then confused the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

He's a good MC and actor, but definitely not... well informed, let's say? Unless he was deliberately acting... acting like a dumbass.

eddiesocket: Mos is awesome and funny, but really really wrong and uninformed on this topic, due to his own religious bias.

Bullshiat. Religion has nothing to do with it.

That's like someone who says "What was Hitler's manifesto?" is uninformed because they're Christian. They're uninformed because they're lazy at reading history.

bobbette: eddiesocket: Mos is awesome and funny, but really really wrong and uninformed on this topic, due to his own religious bias.

Bullshiat. Religion has nothing to do with it.

That's like someone who says "What was Hitler's manifesto?" is uninformed because they're Christian. They're uninformed because they're lazy at reading history.

I don't think you understand what I wrote. Like, at all. Mos Def is Muslim, so he blindly defends all Muslims, much like Catholics who blindly defend the Pope, and pedophile priests.

Video's too long. I'm busy. Can someone sum up the debate? Mos Def is a rapper, Hitchens is living proof that you don't have to be a religious fanatic to be a neocon tool. He's like Mr. Garrison on the South Park episode where he's f*cking Richard Dawkins. What kind of exchange do these 2 pathetic weasels have?

That was painful to watch. I don't understand why Maher often has guests on who he could reasonably assume before hand will not - or could not - discuss the topics intelligently.

Hehe... Mr. Definitely. Well done on that.

I didn't hear him defend anything. I heard him ask a (yes, simplistic) question and heard Hitchens basically call him a moron. At great, exhausting, boring length.

Would rather drink with Mos Def than Hitchens.

kronicfeld 2009-03-28 01:38:56 PM
Ahhh_Ennui: I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

Hitchens may be an asshole, but he has a tendency to be right about a whole boatload of things.

Yup but he was on the POS Maher's show so -1 for that.

You know why Maher is a POS? Because he says outrageous things, expecting people to go along with him and when he's called out for BS he says 'Well, I'm just a comedian'.

That farker Stewert does the same thing.

And yet they expect to be taken seriously.

I know where he's coming from.

He's saying there's a lot of mistrust in the black community of the 'official' version of events because there is a historical reality in america of framing black political dissidents for acts they didn't commit in order to shut down legitimate political dissent. He's referencing the black panthers, and about that he was right, and both Maher and Hitchens were ignorant of that.

Granted he wasn't exactly expressing it well. And he came off sounding like a troofer with the "how do I know bin Laden exists" b.s. But I think it's safe to say there was ignorance on both sides of that argument.

bobbette:
That's like someone who says "What was Hitler's manifesto?" is uninformed because they're Christian. They're uninformed because they're lazy at reading history.


Demanding an explanation on what a groups "manifesto" is while stating that every conceivable method of learning or communicating what that may be is irredeemably corrupted is, well, an example of extreme bias. You ask for information, make it impossible to retrieve said information, and then use that as evidence to support a vague implication of a conspiracy to frame a particular group. That's an agenda.

I like Mos Def, and it was saddening watching that.

Went back and watched the video.

I thought Mos Def was a pretty good actor - Hitchhiker's Guide, A Thing that God Made - and had a favorable impression of him (never listened to his music) but the guy is a farking idiot and sounds dumb as a box of rocks.

mfaby: That farker Stewert does the same thing.

give us an example of an "outrageous thing" Stewart said that he has been called out on?

gilgigamesh: I know where he's coming from.

He's saying there's a lot of mistrust in the black community of the 'official' version of events because there is a historical reality in america of framing black political dissidents for acts they didn't commit in order to shut down legitimate political dissent. He's referencing the black panthers, and about that he was right, and both Maher and Hitchens were ignorant of that.

Granted he wasn't exactly expressing it well. And he came off sounding like a troofer with the "how do I know bin Laden exists" b.s. But I think it's safe to say there was ignorance on both sides of that argument.

Thread over.

otherginger: I didn't hear him defend anything. I heard him ask a (yes, simplistic) question and heard Hitchens basically call him a moron. At great, exhausting, boring length.

Would rather drink with Mos Def than Hitchens.

Yeah, I'd rather share a bowl with Mos Def over a glass of scotch with Hitchens.

However, Mos Def comes off incredibly uninformed here. I know nothing about his religious beliefs or politics, but he seems to be arguing that al-Qaeda and the Taliban (which he couldn't make a distinction between) aren't necessarily "bad motherfarkers" because he doesn't believe what the "Man" tells him.

Now, I can completely understand that Mos Def might have that attitude in light of his coming up poor and black in Brooklyn. I wouldn't trust the "Man" either.

But, if you go on a show and want to be "provocative" by espousing "unpopular ideas," then do some reading and get some facts to back it up.

The whole bit about not trusting the English translation of Bin Laden tapes makes him sound like a conspiracy nutter.

Hitchens was pissed that he had to have a debate with a guy who didn't have anything substantial to back up his assertion. I don't blame his asshole-ness in this instance. I probably would have been just as frustrated.

On second thought, maybe Mr. Definitely is just really deep in the way that a guy who's just taken Philosophy 101 at his local community college will ponder "ah, but can we really KNOW anything?"

Oxford-educated Christopher Hitchens versus performance arts high school-educated Mos Def. An accomplished author and expert on the subject versus a rapper. Please. Why even put a moron like Mossy on the panel. He does a disservice to all Muslims.

Wagz: That was painful to watch. I don't understand why Maher often has guests on who he could reasonably assume before hand will not - or could not - discuss the topics intelligently.

Hehe... Mr. Definitely. Well done on that.

I've always felt that Mahar, for his excellence, clarity and wit, has a horrible time putting together panels that provoke discussion. Too often they fall into yelling. And not the fun "Mix baking soda and vinegar" type yelling, but just talking over each other.

mfaby: kronicfeld 2009-03-28 01:38:56 PM
Ahhh_Ennui: I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

Hitchens may be an asshole, but he has a tendency to be right about a whole boatload of things.

Yup but he was on the POS Maher's show so -1 for that.

You know why Maher is a POS? Because he says outrageous things, expecting people to go along with him and when he's called out for BS he says 'Well, I'm just a comedian'.

That farker Stewert does the same thing.

And yet they expect to be taken seriously.

First. Stewart. Second, I disagree. Mahar has been a political commentator and comedian for nearly 30 years. He deserves the respect he gets from a lot of quarters. He's thoughtful and patient, and PI, for my dollar, are two of the best shows of the last 25 years. He's a Comedian. Not everything he says should be taken seriously, but a lot of the things he says should be.

gilgigamesh: I know where he's coming from.

He's saying there's a lot of mistrust in the black community of the 'official' version of events because there is a historical reality in america of framing black political dissidents for acts they didn't commit in order to shut down legitimate political dissent. He's referencing the black panthers, and about that he was right, and both Maher and Hitchens were ignorant of that.

Granted he wasn't exactly expressing it well. And he came off sounding like a troofer with the "how do I know bin Laden exists" b.s. But I think it's safe to say there was ignorance on both sides of that argument.

Exactly. And honestly, Hitchens came off very dickish. A person of a mostly-villified minority not trusting the government version of things should not be that shocking, and Hitchens came off personally offended, which was foolish.

kronicfeld: Hitchens may be an asshole, but he has a tendency to be right about a whole boatload of things.

Except Iraq.

kronicfeld: Ahhh_Ennui: I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

Hitchens may be an asshole, but he has a tendency to be right wrong about a whole boatload of things. everything except for religion.

FTFY

Ahhh_Ennui: I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

/applicable in any Hitchens thread. No other context required.

I have recently come to the conclusion that atheism can be an extremely compassionate venture. Many atheists try to convince people that religion is wrong, because they believe the alternative is eventually catastrophe when a religious nut gets a bomb, or they believe that people are enslaving their own logical minds with religion and that it holds back human progress.

So, some atheists are both logical and compassionate. Some are extremely compassionate, in fact.

Christopher Hitchens is not one of those atheists. He gets people pissed to sell books, and however intelligent he is (and I think he's extremely intelligent), he's not a very compassionate man and I think he gives atheism a bad name.

His dance is the same as Anne Coulter's.

regretlesspanda: I like Mos Def, and it was saddening watching that.

me too man me too

mos def looked like a complete fool, jackass, and an angry paranoid black guy. you can tell when people are in over their head in an argument because they start rambling, getting louder, and using cliches. mos def got owned.

mos def is on a song that says
"bin laden didnt blow up the towers, it was you, n*gga!(meaning bush)
bush knocked down towers! bush knocked down the towers!"

im this close to not being a fan anymore..

this makes me as mad as when nas said that the africans taught the greeks and romans LOLOLOLOL

CatJumpJohn: Ahhh_Ennui: I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

/applicable in any Hitchens thread. No other context required.

I have recently come to the conclusion that atheism can be an extremely compassionate venture. Many atheists try to convince people that religion is wrong, because they believe the alternative is eventually catastrophe when a religious nut gets a bomb, or they believe that people are enslaving their own logical minds with religion and that it holds back human progress.

So, some atheists are both logical and compassionate. Some are extremely compassionate, in fact.

Christopher Hitchens is not one of those atheists. He gets people pissed to sell books, and however intelligent he is (and I think he's extremely intelligent), he's not a very compassionate man and I think he gives atheism a bad name.

His dance is the same as Anne Coulter's.

Hitchens is a fundamentalist atheist. He's no different than a religious nut trying to force their beliefs down everyone's throats. As a said earlier, he should've been included in those South Park episodes with the 3 atheist factions fighting. I bet Hitchens frequently says things like "Thank Atheism" and "atheism damnit!" He's doesn't represent atheism well, and he makes atheists look like warmonger heartless alcoholic neocons.

Mr. Def = Farking idiot.

Christopher Hitchens is a HUGE douche. Seriously.

/Huge.

It's too bad Mos looked like such an idiot during this part. He was totally right about bin Laden earlier in the show.

I could watch Hitchens call people idiots all day.

Here's the still you get on billmaher.com

Hitchens is usually right, but ALWAYS a total dick.

Mos Def had valid points, but absolutely failed to articulate his meaning. I see where he was coming from. It's kind of the 1984 Goldstein sort of thing... He's wondering if the image of Bin Laden that WE get in our media is truly representative of the real man, or if it's been put through a political filter that serves the interests of Big Brother/The Man in this country.

He's thinking critically ("I don't speak Arabic, so I *can't* know for sure what he's saying.") and he's asking a simple question: "What is their political GOAL?" Not "Who are they?" or "What kind of people are they?" He wants to know if there's an actual end result these people are seeking, or if they're just being propped up as the bad guys by a bunch of white men who have spent the past several hundred years finding ways to hate brown people.

From HIS point of view, the questions are valid and make some sense.

How many Arabic (or Farsi?) speakers do YOU know who could translate Bin Laden for you as he speaks? And do you trust them to tell the truth or do you think they might fudge the words a bit to make him seem a little crazier/less crazy and fit their personal beliefs?

Basically, Mos Def doesn't trust other people to tell him what someone else is saying (or believes) without embellishing it, and he just wants to know if the Taliban and/or Al Queda manifesto is a written-down, etched-in-stone, real thing that says something specific, rather than being an ambiguous collection of general ideas and minor laws they crave as described by outsiders who oppose them.

I can see his point. I can also say he needed to frame it better and maybe not ask that sort of question when someone like Hitchens was on the show. He wasn't saying he DOES or DOESN'T believe; He was simply saying "How do I know WHO to believe?"

My apologies to Mos Def, but I'd rather get drunk and argue with Hitch. And we would argue.

Plus, he knows all the best spa treatments.

Pechorin: Hitchens is a fundamentalist atheist. He's no different than a religious nut trying to force their beliefs down everyone's throats.

Um, yeah, he is, in that Hitchens isn't trying to pass laws based on religious non-belief.

mfaby:

Hitchens may be an asshole, but he has a tendency to be right about a whole boatload of things.

Yup but he was on the POS Maher's show so -1 for that.

You know why Maher is a POS? Because he says outrageous things, expecting people to go along with him and when he's called out for BS he says 'Well, I'm just a comedian'.

That farker Stewert does the same thing.

And yet they expect to be taken seriously.

Do you reserve the same ire for Coulter or Limbaugh? Just curious.

Did not watch the whole clip, but it's safe to say that Hitchens is still a massive douche.

Pechorin: I bet Hitchens frequently says things like "Thank Atheism" and "atheism damnit!"

Oh, crap, I should have read this sentence before I wasted my time responding to you.

saintstryfe: Exactly. And honestly, Hitchens came off very dickish. A person of a mostly-villified minority not trusting the government version of things should not be that shocking, and Hitchens came off personally offended, which was foolish.

That's because he's a dick. And presumptuous, and he's close-minded (pretty funny for an atheist).

He's so wrapped up in what he *thought* Mos Def was saying that there was no way he was going to be convinced the guy had a real point no matter what. You could actually see the moment when he shut down and mentally circled the wagons, so to speak. After that nothing was going to get through.

Not exactly a good quality in a debater. It is a very easy weakness to exploit for anyone paying attention.

regretlesspanda: I like Mos Def, and it was saddening watching that.

Why? He's a musician and an actor, not a political figure or talking head. If he chooses to avoid the media, but still puts out enjoyable tunes and fun movies, does it matter?

Personally, I agree to some point, the media, in general, is out to make money and has long since dropped the persona of being quality news suppliers. They focus on death, destruction, terror, mishaps, accidents, gaffes, and whatever else creates tension and thrill.

Unlike Mos, I filter the news information, seeking out various sources to locate the spin each reporter puts on their facts, as most everything has become an op-ed despite being labeled otherwise. Op-eds are engaging, pure information becomes entirely too academic for today's society. If they reference a poll, I look up said poll in its entirety. If they mention a paper, I look up the paper. If I don't have immediate access, I do my damnedest to filter everything out that is laced with opinion.

Is it 100% effective? No. Is it easier than just going with whatever someone says? Hell no. Do I feel more informed? Definitely.

However, in Mos' case, he shuts off he valve, which was a primary counterpoint against his statements. That being said, the typical aggressive reaction followed, instead of reaching out to offer education. There was no, "Here, this is a source, and if you're worried about translation, I know an objective translator", it became an increasing pressure for his method to crumble, which was a direct confrontation with his beliefs. Certainly not effective at all when dealing with someone who is dedicated to their method.

Again, he's an actor/musician. That's his strong point, he's also a community activist, focusing on inner city situations. Do I trust him as a source of Inner City information? No, I filter his words as well because he has a particular task/image to perform/uphold. However, had the discussion been about that particular topic instead of a global topic, I believe we'd see a much more composed counter-argument coming from Mos.

Again, he's an actor/musician! Focus on his strengths.

ZeroCorpse: I can see his point. I can also say he needed to frame it better and maybe not ask that sort of question when someone like Hitchens was on the show. He wasn't saying he DOES or DOESN'T believe; He was simply saying "How do I know WHO to believe?"

That's fine as far as it goes but hasn't this guy had, I don't know, ten years or so to learn what Al Qaeda was about? Or that there is a difference between Al Qaeda and the Taliban/

Rushdie and Hitchens explained it to him perfectly and couldn't bring himself to accept their explanation. This would have involved abandoning his hope of drawing a moral equivalence between the United States and a bunch of fascist theocrats. He doesn't really want anything explained to him.

kronicfeld: Ahhh_Ennui: I hate Hitchens. He's a farking asshole.

Hitchens may be an asshole, but he has a tendency to be right about a whole boatload of things.

Ah, but where he is wrong he is so painfully, stubbornly and arrogantly wrong that his snideness threatens to collapse in on itself in a giant, sucking singularity of smug.

Pechorin:
He's doesn't represent atheism well, and he makes atheists look like warmonger heartless alcoholic neocons.

Only to idiots who can't separate a person from an idea. Hitchens likes to drink, therefore all atheists like to drink? HItchens believes the war in Iraq was a good thing therefore all atheists believe it was a good thing?

Next you'll be saying that the Pope makes all Catholics seem like celibate, scientifically illiterate, ex-Nazi Youth ideologues . . .