Metallica sold out when they started writing pussy rock.

Also, 80% of their best music happened before Cliff Burton died.

Also, 100% of the only music of theirs worth listening to happened before Load.

Also, the notion of selling out is basically when you stop creating art for art's sake. Not necessarily getting paid for it, but more specifically when you compromise your art due to market data and focus groups and label decisions.

Trent Reznor is a great example of not a sellout.

Metallica, you have sold out several times and ways. It doesn't make you bad people. Putting out crappy music makes you bad people.

Well...nothing left to be said after Hyperbolic Hyperbole nailed it in one.

Except FOADIAF, Metalliwhores.

Hyperbolic Hyperbole: Also, 80% of their best music happened before Cliff Burton died.

Cliff actually knew music theory, much moreso than most bass players. Very often he doesn't get the credit he deserves for that.

Beautiful, subby. Just beautiful.

Selling out requires that you trade your core ideals for money.

If money was your core ideal to begin with, it's hard to sell out.

But all i have to say is that their cover of "Loverman" could not have sounded more homosexual if they had been having sex with each other when they recorded it.

Not that there would be anything wrong with that.

He's just saying they won't sell out to Live Nation. They are merely maintaining control of: when, to whom, and for how much.

Is this a story from 1988? If so, I might believe him.

However, the past 20 years of Metallica are basically a primer as to how to sell out.

Go away Metallica, you have long since ceased to be relevant.

Hyperbolic Hyperbole: Metallica sold out when they started writing pussy rock.

Also, 80% of their best music happened before Cliff Burton died.

Also, 100% of the only music of theirs worth listening to happened before Load.

Also, the notion of selling out is basically when you stop creating art for art's sake. Not necessarily getting paid for it, but more specifically when you compromise your art due to market data and focus groups and label decisions.

Trent Reznor is a great example of not a sellout.

Metallica, you have sold out several times and ways. It doesn't make you bad people. Putting out crappy music makes you bad people.

i agree with everything here EXCEPT the 100% comment. death magnetic is, in my estimation, their 3rd best album and certainly worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as MOP and RTL.

bales: i agree with everything here EXCEPT the 100% comment. death magnetic is, in my estimation, their 3rd best album and certainly worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as MOP and RTL.

See, a lot of people told me Death Magnetic would bring me back to Metallica. I stopped listening in 1996 when they dropped one of the biggest musical disappointments ever; Load. So this wasn't going to be an easy task at all.

I listened to Death Magnetic and it sounds like exactly what it is, a desperate attempt to re-live the days of old.

FAIL.

Hyperbolic Hyperbole: Trent Reznor is a great example of not a sellout.

I'm going to the NIN / Janes Addiction June 5th in Camden / Philadelphia.

You?

Rev.K: I listened to Death Magnetic and it sounds like exactly what it is, a desperate attempt to re-live the days of old.

FAIL.

couldn't disagree more. hammett puts on a show in this album. the energy is back, the growl is back, and lars is STILL a one dimensional twat! too bad ya can't get into it.

blah blah blah. i'm so angry that a band stopped making music that i like that i wish they would die. rarr rarr rarr, i don't want to pay for music. cliff was the only talented one. dave mustaine and his biatchy little vocals and affinity for crying on documentaries was the best guitar player they had. yadda yadda.

miss anything?

I remember seeing Metallica on the Ride The Lightning tour - in a tiny club, at that. I'd never heard of them before, and was at the show to see WASP and Armoured Saint. LOL

I liked Death Magnetic. St Anger should have been called St Anky, though.

DaShredda: I'm going to the NIN / Janes Addiction June 5th in Camden / Philadelphia.

You?

That would be awesome. I saw NIN a couple of times, but never had the chance to see Jane's.

I think his constant whining about the subject makes him a sell out.

WaltzingMathilda: blah blah blah. i'm so angry that a band stopped making music that i like that i wish they would die. rarr rarr rarr, i don't want to pay for music. cliff was the only talented one. dave mustaine and his biatchy little vocals and affinity for crying on documentaries was the best guitar player they had. yadda yadda.

miss anything?

I...I love you, man. I love you.

bales: Rev.K: I listened to Death Magnetic and it sounds like exactly what it is, a desperate attempt to re-live the days of old.

FAIL.

couldn't disagree more. hammett puts on a show in this album. the energy is back, the growl is back, and lars is STILL a one dimensional twat! too bad ya can't get into it.

Disagree. Hammett sounds like he's trying to top himself, but falters and severely disappoints. Energy does not equal better. Death Magnetic sounds better than St. Anger, but not as good as Black IMO. Definitely not Master or Kill 'Em All.

They suck now. I try so hard to like them but the music is so sad and uninspiried. Sirius has a Metallica station right now and when you hear the old stuff right befor the new it makes it sound that much worse. There is no speed in the music anymore. No more pain. No more aggression. No more good. It sucks because I want them to be good.

Another Metallica thread today? WTF? Are they paying Drew for the mentions?
/although I can admit I like their cover of "Tuesday's Gone"
//still, enough Metallica for one day IMO

As an attorney once told me: "It's not selling out - it's buying in".

Oh...so that's how it works.

Freaking whiners. Boo hoo, Metallica didn't cater to my exact specifications about what metal should be.

bales: Hyperbolic Hyperbole: Metallica sold out when they started writing pussy rock.

Also, 80% of their best music happened before Cliff Burton died.

Also, 100% of the only music of theirs worth listening to happened before Load.

Also, the notion of selling out is basically when you stop creating art for art's sake. Not necessarily getting paid for it, but more specifically when you compromise your art due to market data and focus groups and label decisions.

Trent Reznor is a great example of not a sellout.

Metallica, you have sold out several times and ways. It doesn't make you bad people. Putting out crappy music makes you bad people.

i agree with everything here EXCEPT the 100% comment. death magnetic is, in my estimation, their 3rd best album and certainly worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as MOP and RTL.

I more or less agree:
1. RTL
2. MOP
3. Justice
4. Death Magnetic
5. Kill Em All

"Who was Shawn Fanning, Alex?"

Sergent D: Freaking whiners. Boo hoo, Metallica didn't cater to my exact specifications about what metal should be.

Metal is about having good riffs. I have power metal, progressive metal, doom metal, death metal, thrash metal, heavy metal, and even a tiny bit of black metal.

A good lot of it doesn't have growling. I have metal that uses aspects of classical and I have metal that uses didgeridoos. There's one real connecting feature between all of it: good riffs.

Metallica hasn't been able to consistently pump out the riffs since Justice. Everything else is just window dressing.

someone please inform Mr Lars Constantly Late to the Current State of the Music Industry Party Ulrich that no one is "selling out" anymore ...

They're Buying In

Pesto is no longer the new Salsa

We Landed on the Moon

My Grandmother is more in touch with the music biz than you

Illidan: Metallica hasn't been able to consistently pump out the riffs since Justice. Everything else is just window dressing.

Riffs have never been their problem, even Load/Reload was full of good riffs that fit the style they wanted on those albums.

Sergent D: Freaking whiners. Boo hoo, Metallica didn't cater to my exact specifications about what metal should be.


This IS the Metallica bashing thread, yes? You are excused from the conversation. Go sit over there and be lame.

Hyperbolic Hyperbole: Trent Reznor is a great example of not a sellout.

I lol'd a lot.

Sergent D: Illidan: Metallica hasn't been able to consistently pump out the riffs since Justice. Everything else is just window dressing.

Riffs have never been their problem, even Load/Reload was full of good riffs that fit the style they wanted on those albums.

Too much repetition.

They sucked before it, but with St. Anger they created a whole new kind of suck. Does anyone know where 1980s Metallica is buried?, I'd like to visit the grave.

What happened to the "we sell out... every night" mantra that Hetfield cranks out ad nauseum? I guess they had to stop using it when they had to give away a few thousand tickets each show to keep the nosebleeds from being empty.

Bargains
Imprisoning me
All that I see
Absolute savings
What a great deal
What a great find
Look at these jeans
Damn I look sexy as
Helllllll

I laugh every time I see this pic - thanks jrshull!

Sergent D:
Riffs have never been their problem, even Load/Reload was full of good riffs that fit the style they wanted on those albums.

This. Notably, riffs in songs like Devil's Dance, Slither, Carpe Diem, 2x4, King Nothing... this is pre-"nu:metal" and at the time barely anyone was making slow, grinding hard rock like this (AiC is the only band I can think of). To all those who say they hate anything after AJfA or MoP, I assume you don't listen to any modern rock because the next 15-20 years of hard rock radio after Black/Load/Reload has all been predicated on Metallica's 90s template. In essence, they perfected metal in the 80s, and then went on to completely re-define hard rock in the 90s.

That said, it would have been great if Load/Reload was one 15-track album and St. Anger never existed.

jrshull: Armanitallica.

I love that image. It's funny.

I understand the hate for Lars, but I don't really get the hate for Metallica. They're a band with lots of hits and plenty of misses. Their catalog is big enough that they could play multiple shows without repeating anything and still kick ass. If you like metal, chances are, you like SOMETHING that Metallica has done. Why do we feel this need to demand that everything an artist does be exceptional?

They have a great sound and the new stuff is good. Sure, it's not the best, but it's good. There should be nothing to complain about.

As for selling out: Just watch the Metallica: Some Kind of Monster documentary to ruin your image of them forever... or don't. There is one line that encapsulates the total fail of the St. Anger album and that is "guitar solos are out" uttered by Hetfield to Hammett, I think. Totally calculated, non-emotional, bullshiat.

Since this should be about LARS and not Metallica, yeah... he's an idiot. Every time I hear him talk I cringe. He may be a great drummer, but he needs to just shut the hell up.

jiaxiaobo: To all those who say they hate anything after AJfA or MoP, I assume you don't listen to any modern rock because the next 15-20 years of hard rock radio after Black/Load/Reload has all been predicated on Metallica's 90s template. In essence, they perfected metal in the 80s, and then went on to completely re-define hard rock in the 90s.

This might explain why so many of us do hate Metallica. I can't speak for everyone, but hard rock in the 90s grates on me: it I'm just listening to the same 5 or 10 seconds over and over again. I love popular rock produced until some point in the 80s, at which point it seems to start universally sucking (and I'm 20).

In the case of Metallica, I blame it on riffs because they're usually what my mind fixates on in metal-related music, and I know plenty of other bands with terrible drummers and vocalists that are just just fine.

Death Magnetic even seemed to fit the proper thrash formula - especially the Guitar Hero version, which has much less offensive drums. Even so, something was just completely missing.

Accolade: I understand the hate for Lars, but I don't really get the hate for Metallica...

As for selling out: Just watch the Metallica: Some Kind of Monster documentary to ruin your image of them forever... or don't. There is one line that encapsulates the total fail of the St. Anger album and that is "guitar solos are out" uttered by Hetfield to Hammett, I think. Totally calculated, non-emotional, bullshiat.

I don't think you're the only one who picked up on that vibe, and it might explain part of the first quoted sentence.

SELLING OUT WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

Anyone NAIVE enough to think that bands don't sell out is a farking retard. 9 out of 10 bands are in it to SELL OUT.

And sweet jesus is the Metallica butthurt strong in this thread. It's not like they cheated on you, stabbed your mother, and broke up with you via text message.

Illidan,

No offense, but honestly if you are only 20 years old you have no idea what you are talking about and are probably more influenced by the perception of Metallica than the actual works of the band.

If you want to just take riffs, the Black Album was their pinnacle. Holier than Thou has a sick riff. Maybe you are expecting too much from a bunch of guys in their mid-40's. Seriously, can you imagine you Dad and his friends doing what Metallica does on a nightly basis?

People will say what they will about Metallica but they never lost their F-you attitude that got them to where they are. They were never scared to do the unexpected and they stood behind their music. That isn't selling out. Selling out is mailing it in and essentially bending over to the outside influences (be it corporate or 'fans'). People lost their heads over Load and what do they do? They let everyone know that they like it so much they are releasing another album in the same vein. Their album sales took a huge hit from the Black Album, if selling records was all they cared about they could have pumped out more Black Albumish material.

They certainly haven't sold out to corporate interests. Do you see them pimping stupid crap in commercials? Do you see them releasing cash grabs like greatest hits compilations? They also stand up for what they believe in. Lars took copious amounts of crap for standing up against downloading music but he didn't let it stop him from fighting for something he believed in. Disagree all you want with his position but he stood up for him self and took the heat. That's integrity, not selling out.

So they made music videos after swearing they would never do it. I said a lot of things that I wouldn't do when I was in my early 20's. Things change.

Lars... he's just Lars. He's not a great technical drummer but he does what needs to be done. Metallica is about the guitars anyways.

Sergent D: No offense, but honestly if you are only 20 years old you have no idea what you are talking about and are probably more influenced by the perception of Metallica than the actual works of the band.

If you want to just take riffs, the Black Album was their pinnacle. Holier than Thou has a sick riff. Maybe you are expecting too much from a bunch of guys in their mid-40's. Seriously, can you imagine you Dad and his friends doing what Metallica does on a nightly basis?

I'm not trying to place myself as the Arbiter of Taste and the Judge of Quality, here. W.A.S.P. is one of my favorite bands and they're often derided as hair metal.

I like Holier Than Thou. The Black Album isn't half bad compared to U2, but what about Demolition Hammer, Kreator, Sodom, Sepultura, or any of the other riff monsters that used to be great and are now crap? I don't complain about them because nobody's lauding their newest stuff.

Sure, the Black Album has several songs (and portions of songs I like), but it also has Sad but True. I listen to most music by album, and I've got hundreds of metal bands which have albums I like 90+% of.

I'm fine with Metallica achieving success in the hard rock scene, and I'm incredibly grateful to them for the influence they've had. I think Metallica sucks now, it's a matter of opinion, and it's based on the music they play.

Downloading? That's all publicity crap. Lars doesn't know the first thing about technology and got unlucky with public statements, so I don't fault him for it.

It's cute that people still use the phrase, "sell out," as it relates to music. In other news, have any of you seen that awesome dancing baby thingie floating the 'net?

Illidan: I like Holier Than Thou. The Black Album isn't half bad compared to U2, but what about Demolition Hammer, Kreator, Sodom, Sepultura, or any of the other riff monsters that used to be great and are now crap? I don't complain about them because nobody's lauding their newest stuff.

I liked M-16.

/Everything that can be said has already been said.
// Except that Kill 'em All is their best album. It had something that was missing in everyone of their follow-ups: Energy.
///Each album is worse than the one preceding it.

SPna15: I liked M-16.

WTF? I thought M-16 and the self-titled were 80s albums! M-16 is actually my favorite! I was thinking of their '07 album, actually.

They're basically copying themselves at this point, and getting paid handsomely for it.

why not guitar hero: iron maiden?

or slayer?

/you can throw Suicidal tendencies into either one. it would farking rock.

//original misfits or Danzig would be great too.

mandingueiro: why not guitar hero: iron maiden?

or slayer?

/you can throw Suicidal tendencies into either one. it would farking rock.

//original misfits or Danzig would be great too.

that would be the easiest, most boring game ever.

/Love the (real) Misfits though!!

Illidan: SPna15: I liked M-16.

WTF? I thought M-16 and the self-titled were 80s albums! M-16 is actually my favorite! I was thinking of their '07 album, actually.

Yep. Both of those are awesome examples of recent thrash. The reason that they made a self-titled so late in their career was because, as Tom states: "Every band needs a self-titled album."

My ranking:
1. Persecution Mania
2. M-16
3. Agent Orange

Once again, my friend Chris check in with this:


I'd say Metallica really jumped the shark in the long period between "Metallica" and "Load".

Although many hardcore metalheads hated Metallica Metallica (the black album), I think it remains today the single best example of metal crossing over to a wider audience; and that isn't a bad thing. Metallica was still hard and heavy, but made the music somewhat more accessible to those who were not into the hardcore classical music based speedmetal, or punk based thrashmetal that Metallica had blended so well in previous albums.

I would say that they peaked with "Master of Puppets", which I still consider the greatest metal album of all time. Other than Damage Inc. every single track on that album is brilliant; a perfect example of Metallicas thrash/speed metal fusion (Damage inc. isn't a bad song, but it is more appropriate to an earlier era of Metallicas music. It's a throwaway almost garageband thrash track, and the album would have been better closing with "Orion").

Metallica then plateaued with "And Justice for All" and "Metallica". They were both musically and artistically excellent, but they did not quite reach the height of "Master...", nor were they an artistic stretch for the band. Both were exercises in refining their sound, and their technical abilities rather than reaching for new heights or breaking new ground.

You may attribute this change to the loss of Cliff Burton, but I think it was simply that the band found the peak of their possible achievements in "Master" and simply could do no better. Every band finds their peak, and declines (or breaks up, or both) it's the nature of the beast.

Now that I've said that, I'm going to almost contradict myself, by saying that it WAS Cliffs death that changed the band irrevocably.

The first major consequence was that Cliffs loss initiated a MAJOR change in James Hetfield... simply put, he lost his art. He had his anger and his pain, but Cliffs death seemed to have take the artistic passion out of him, and replaced it with a towering resentment for Lars, who to this day seems oddly false when discussing how Cliffs death effected him.

In fact, if you look at everything since, it seems clear that Hetfield is happiest, when he's reliving the early days of the band, as in Garage Inc.

You have to remember that Metallica is essentially two bands. James Hetfield and then later Jason Newsted, are thrashmetal punks to their core; whereas Lars Ulrich and Kirk Hammett are quintessentially speed metal.

This tension between artistic elements is what made their music great, and Cliff Burton who was a punk at heart, but was also a great lover of Jazz and Classical music (and speedmetal, which grew out of classical influences); acted as the bridge between these two elements in tension (This can be best heard in "To live is to die" and "(Anastehsia) pulling teeth").

Without that bridge, the balance was lost, and it was simply a tug of war between James and Lars.

"Master..." was the last album where those elements of speed metal and thrash metal were truly blended properly. "Justice..." was an exploration of the excesses of speed metal; complicated by the gigantic ego of Lars Ulrich (and corresponding anger of Hetfield) making the production of the album a sloppy, poorly mixed nightmare.

Bringing in Bob Rock on "Metallica" was really an attempt by the band to put that bridge back in place, and restore some of that "mix" lost when Cliff died; and to an extent it worked. Combined with the far more professional production that Rock provided, and his ability to mediate between Hetfield and Ulrich (mostly by making them hate him wore than each other), "Metallica" was the most balanced production the band had yet made.

Of course, that's the problem with it.

Metallica wasn't great because they BALANCED thrash and speed metal, they were great because they wildly rollercoastered around the entirety of thrash and speedmetal, even within the same song.

Bob Rock gave them a better produced, better packaged, GOOD album, but he also muted the excesses.... the ups and downs that make great art. There was no more rollercoaster... more like a freight train, running down a straight line at 90mph.

Make no mistake "Metallica" is a very good album, and has a couple of really GREAT songs on it... but it is... unmagical? I don't want to say uninspired, because the very personal lyrical content that Hetfield included is in many ways beautiful, painful, and entirely revealing... but it just doesn't have the spark that the first three albums did.

"Metallica" also marks the last significant artistic contributions that Kirk Hammett or Lars Ulrich would make to the music of the band.

The entire post "Metallica" discography is essentially Hetfields artistic choice, fueled mostly by his anger, resentment, and disillusionment. It has also moved deeper and deeper into a grunge and groove metal mode, without the classical speedmetal influences; and only occasionally breaking out into the hardcore thrash that Hetfields artistry and passion is rooted in.

Honestly, I think the last time Metallica did something great, it was on "Garage Inc." where for a few minutes James clearly felt like he was expressing himself fully, even though it was through other peoples music; and he and Lars were able to actually ENJOY playing with each other again.

Load... well, there is some excellent songwriting in load, and a few quite good songs, but overall it's missing inspiration. There's a lot of anger there, but no genius, no life to it. In Load, Metallica essentially abandoned their roots in punk, thrash, and speedmetal; and moved into a more hard rock, blues oriented structure. It's a simpler, more accessible, easier to play, write, produce, and sell music... but it just isn't as good.

It isn't really Metallica, it's almost numetallica.

St. Anger is just more of the same, only... angrier.

I've heard death magnetic, and I agree it's heavier than Metallica has been in years, but again there's no feeling to it other than anger and resentment.

Honestly, I think Hetfield should break up the band and either form a new thrashmetal band, or do some solo work; because this stuff is obviously not satisfying him...

...though really Metallicas artistic output since 1991 can best be thought of as James Hetfield with the support of Kirk Hammett and Lars Ulrich, rather than as Metallica (Newsted was ignored entirely for Load, and Trujillo has very little artistic input at all, though he is certainly a very strong bassist, and writes his own parts).

Illidan: I like Holier Than Thou. The Black Album isn't half bad compared to U2, but what about Demolition Hammer, Kreator, Sodom, Sepultura, or any of the other riff monsters that used to be great and are now crap? I don't complain about them because nobody's lauding their newest stuff.

Most bands only have a few good albums in them. After that they start repeating themselves.

He's right, they haven't sold out yet. "Enter Sandman" is one of the four songs you can't transfer from Rock Band 1 to Rock Band 2.