You know, we have already seen what happens to the economy when the Republicans are in charge. If you don't mind, I would just as soon not have the people who destroyed it make the decisions for a while.

They had their chance. Now let's give the other side a chance and see how it works out.

RosevilleDan: You know, we have already seen what happens to the economy when the Republicans are in charge. If you don't mind, I would just as soon not have the people who destroyed it make the decisions for a while.

They had their chance. Now let's give the other side a chance and see how it works out

False dichotomy. The Republicans are incompetent authoritarians who pursued failed and destructive polices, and the Democrats are doing their best to beat them at their own insane game.

The problems we're just now starting to face are much more deeply entrenched than the partisan circle jerk they put on every four years. That will be more than obvious when the Bush/Obama printing press makes the dollar worthless. It's only a matter of time until the rest of the world stops taking dollars that our government feels free to print more of whenever it wants, and that's when the shiat really hits the fan. The groundwork for this stuff was being laid while Bush and Obama were snorting coke and getting stoned.

Churchill2004: It's only a matter of time until the rest of the world stops taking dollars that our government feels free to print more of whenever it wants, and that's when the shiat really hits the fan.

I hope you won't mind when we mock you endlessly a few years from now. Nothing personal - it's just that you make statements like this all the time with no evidence or historical reference to back it up aside from some Austrian economic theory that has never been tested in the real world.

Churchill2004: The problems we're just now starting to face are much more deeply entrenched than the partisan circle jerk they put on every four years.

There's no room for sane, rational discourse on Fark. Or in politics for that matter.

/been posting for the last YEAR that the deregulation of the markets that is blamed for allowing this whole mess to spiral was championed by BOTH parties. They couldn't get out of each other's way in their scramble to take credit for it.

Maybe once the country is bankrupt we can have some effective Chapter 11 restructuring with the help of the Chinese.

Conservatives don't really want the banks to fail any more than they want abortion banned;
can't have it affect their business or have their daughter/lover produce another mouth to feed.

Wake me up when somebody else on the planet has this:



The real backbone of the US economy. Fark the Gold Standard, we're on the Gray Standard.

Apik0r0s: Wake me up when somebody else on the planet has this:



The real backbone of the US economy. Fark the Gold Standard, we're on the Gray Standard.

Lots of those ships are getting kinda old....

Where we gonna come up with a few trillion to replace them in the next decade or so?

Churchill2004: RosevilleDan: You know, we have already seen what happens to the economy when the Republicans are in charge. If you don't mind, I would just as soon not have the people who destroyed it make the decisions for a while.

They had their chance. Now let's give the other side a chance and see how it works out

False dichotomy. The Republicans are incompetent authoritarians who pursued failed and destructive polices, and the Democrats are doing their best to beat them at their own insane game.

The problems we're just now starting to face are much more deeply entrenched than the partisan circle jerk they put on every four years. That will be more than obvious when the Bush/Obama printing press makes the dollar worthless. It's only a matter of time until the rest of the world stops taking dollars that our government feels free to print more of whenever it wants, and that's when the shiat really hits the fan. The groundwork for this stuff was being laid while Bush and Obama were snorting coke and getting stoned.

Don't most economists in this country support Obama's plan. "Libertopia" is a nice idea, but that Randian philosophy has no basis in reality.

MacEnvy: Churchill2004: It's only a matter of time until the rest of the world stops taking dollars that our government feels free to print more of whenever it wants, and that's when the shiat really hits the fan.

I hope you won't mind when we mock you endlessly a few years from now. Nothing personal - it's just that you make statements like this all the time with no evidence or historical reference to back it up aside from some Austrian economic theory that has never been tested in the real world.

heres a nice shiat-your-pants terrifying chart. its US total credit market debt as a % of GDP. that gigantic spike is the bubble of cheep credit we've been riding since the 80s. we are massively underwater even with GDP still chugging along(or even massively over-inflated if some people are to be believed).

once things come unglued its all going to fall apart spectacularly.

The original CNN article is still on their front page and someone submits a link to this lame-ass website? Sheesh.

Basically Gregg said that fixing the banking system (after Clinton broke it and Bush didn't fix it) is the right thing to do. But bankrupting the country with all the other absurd proposals Obama is pushing is a huge mistake. Submitter doesn't see the difference?

Ned Stark: MacEnvy: Churchill2004: It's only a matter of time until the rest of the world stops taking dollars that our government feels free to print more of whenever it wants, and that's when the shiat really hits the fan.

I hope you won't mind when we mock you endlessly a few years from now. Nothing personal - it's just that you make statements like this all the time with no evidence or historical reference to back it up aside from some Austrian economic theory that has never been tested in the real world.

heres a nice shiat-your-pants terrifying chart. its US total credit market debt as a % of GDP. that gigantic spike is the bubble of cheep credit we've been riding since the 80s. we are massively underwater even with GDP still chugging along(or even massively over-inflated if some people are to be believed).

once things come unglued its all going to fall apart spectacularly.

I wonder what the inflation-deflation lines would look like on the same chart.

smeegle: Ned Stark: MacEnvy: Churchill2004: It's only a matter of time until the rest of the world stops taking dollars that our government feels free to print more of whenever it wants, and that's when the shiat really hits the fan.

I hope you won't mind when we mock you endlessly a few years from now. Nothing personal - it's just that you make statements like this all the time with no evidence or historical reference to back it up aside from some Austrian economic theory that has never been tested in the real world.

heres a nice shiat-your-pants terrifying chart. its US total credit market debt as a % of GDP. that gigantic spike is the bubble of cheep credit we've been riding since the 80s. we are massively underwater even with GDP still chugging along(or even massively over-inflated if some people are to be believed).

once things come unglued its all going to fall apart spectacularly.

I wonder what the inflation-deflation lines would look like on the same chart.

they would probably track with the debt line except for that first spike. that was GDP falling rather then Debt rising.

Hat Madder: But bankrupting the country with all the other absurd proposals Obama is pushing is a huge mistake.

When my son was born a friend got him a bunch of novelty drool bibs and one stated "Future Millionaire". Thanks to the Obama administration this will be possible. All jr needs to do is get a pizza delivery job in 18 years.

/Yes I know the hyperinflation will not be that bad.

Saiga410: When my son was born a friend got him a bunch of novelty drool bibs and one stated "Future Millionaire". Thanks to the Obama administration this will be possible. All jr needs to do is get a pizza delivery job in 18 years.

/Yes I know the hyperinflation will not be that bad.

Jeez I hope it is that bad. How else am I going to get out from under my underwater mortgage?

/there's always a silver lining, just like Germany in the 20's

Klingon Penis
Hat Madder: But bankrupting the country with all the other absurd proposals Obama is pushing is a huge mistake.

Citation is right there in my post moran.

Obama is not going to bankrupt the country. And our debt is not going to cause a spectacular collapse. You should never underestimate the American people. People are not all going to stop paying off their debt. Obama is not betting on bad things, he is investing in some really worthy plans that could bring us all out of where we are in incredibly great shape. It is just that his critics want to scare people into believing that because Obama's plan is a disaster because it will make changes that some people are not going to like. Cars will have to change. Oil tycoons will have to get a new career. Bible thumpers will have to wear Depends because no one is going to stop the non-secular laws from passing now. Who knows what changes will happen to medical insurance and insurance in general. There are going to remain a lot of unhappy campers out there. I just wish all the whining would stop so we can at least see what happens.

Remove all Republicans: Apik0r0s: Wake me up when somebody else on the planet has this:

Yes, because those were so effective against a dozen guys with box-cutters.


That's be frank. While 9/11 was horrible in it's way, it, and attacks like it, will never defeat this country. It did little accept scare and anger us in the long term.

modestlivinglegend: Obama is not going to bankrupt the country. And our debt is not going to cause a spectacular collapse. You should never underestimate the American people. People are not all going to stop paying off their debt. Obama is not betting on bad things, he is investing in some really worthy plans that could bring us all out of where we are in incredibly great shape. It is just that his critics want to scare people into believing that because Obama's plan is a disaster because it will make changes that some people are not going to like. Cars will have to change. Oil tycoons will have to get a new career. Bible thumpers will have to wear Depends because no one is going to stop the non-secular laws from passing now. Who knows what changes will happen to medical insurance and insurance in general. There are going to remain a lot of unhappy campers out there. I just wish all the whining would stop so we can at least see what happens.

I see what you did with that unicorn. That's a multifunctional horn you got there.


Hundreds of billions spent is hundreds of billions wasted, if the peiple spending it somehow think that the act of spending is in itself a solution to every problem. People have no confidence in these plans because they make no sense, not because they hate Obama or want to see him fail. I want to see him succeed, but this idea that massive spending programs are a panacea is a disaster in the making. The idea that doing this in an economic crisis is a good idea is terrifying.

He's green and inexperienced, with very little expertise in finance in his inner circle, and between him, Pelosi, and Reid, we have a diaster to end all disasters in the making.

Animatronik: People have no confidence in these plans

Speak for yourself -- and you will still see only one plan on the table and the naysayers.

Animatronik: He's green and inexperienced, with very little expertise in finance in his inner circle, and between him, Pelosi, and Reid, we have a diaster to end all disasters in the making.

Yes, because hiring the former texas oil man and the former CEO (Bush and Cheney) just was a smashing success.

Get over it, you lost. Things will be run differently for the next 8 years.

Churchill2004: RosevilleDan: You know, we have already seen what happens to the economy when the Republicans are in charge. If you don't mind, I would just as soon not have the people who destroyed it make the decisions for a while.

They had their chance. Now let's give the other side a chance and see how it works out

False dichotomy. The Republicans are incompetent authoritarians who pursued failed and destructive polices, and the Democrats are doing their best to beat them at their own insane game.

The problems we're just now starting to face are much more deeply entrenched than the partisan circle jerk they put on every four years. That will be more than obvious when the Bush/Obama printing press makes the dollar worthless. It's only a matter of time until the rest of the world stops taking dollars that our government feels free to print more of whenever it wants, and that's when the shiat really hits the fan. The groundwork for this stuff was being laid while Bush and Obama were snorting coke and getting stoned.

So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

RemyDuron: Churchill2004: RosevilleDan: You know, we have already seen what happens to the economy when the Republicans are in charge. If you don't mind, I would just as soon not have the people who destroyed it make the decisions for a while.

They had their chance. Now let's give the other side a chance and see how it works out

False dichotomy. The Republicans are incompetent authoritarians who pursued failed and destructive polices, and the Democrats are doing their best to beat them at their own insane game.

The problems we're just now starting to face are much more deeply entrenched than the partisan circle jerk they put on every four years. That will be more than obvious when the Bush/Obama printing press makes the dollar worthless. It's only a matter of time until the rest of the world stops taking dollars that our government feels free to print more of whenever it wants, and that's when the shiat really hits the fan. The groundwork for this stuff was being laid while Bush and Obama were snorting coke and getting stoned.

So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

No, because Keynesian economics = epic fail.

DarnoKonrad: Animatronik: People have no confidence in these plans

Speak for yourself -- and you will still see only one plan on the table and the naysayers.

I was speaking for a lot of people I know, a LOT - obviously not including you.


Yeah, Obama won and he gets to put his plan out there, but we can only borrow so much money. Since he seems only tangentially interested in the banking system, having waited this long to fill key posts in treasury...

He, or his successor in a few years are going to be really surprised to discover that running larger and larger deficits, to the point where they are 10-20% of the GDP just ISN'T GOING TO WORK, because people will stop buying paper from the treasury to finance it. Then, we'll have nothing to show for this craptastic budget plan except a bankrupt government and crazy inflation worse than the early 80's.

modestlivinglegend: Obama is not going to bankrupt the country. And our debt is not going to cause a spectacular collapse...I just wish all the whining would stop so we can at least see what happens.



Wow. That's a great argument. When people warn you that something is going to blow up in your face, you repudiate it with "you just don't like his ideas - life will go on, let's just see what happens."

Here's an idea: go stick your hand in the garbage disposal and flip the switch. Life will go on and I want to see what happens.

I guess your post was faster than trying to think about the second- and third-order effects of his ideas, but I can't blame you with the example that's been set by the new administration. That last "stimulus" needed to be passed fast, otherwise the economy would collapse. That's what the TOTUS told us, right? That's why "no more earmarks" turned into "well, we need to pass this today, so we'll take those earmarks this time."

Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

godofusa.com: No, because Keynesian economics = epic fail.

Yes, and ironically, what Obama wants to do isn't Keynesian economics. Keynesian economics doens't mean throwing money at a zillion different things and calling it stimulus.

the idea that planning on years of huge deficit spending for things like health care and education are critical to short-term economic recovery is just a bunch of Democrats "trying not to waste a good crisis". Anyone who believes that is "Keynesian" needs to wake up.

saintstryfe: Things will be run differently for the next 8 years.

Perhaps, but will Democrats take responsibility if their plan fails? Or will it always be "B... b... b... Bush!"

Ned Stark: big-ass chart

Yeah, but can't we just call one of those debt counseling hotlines and get out from under that in a year?

RemyDuron: So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

The people who reject "Keynesianism" (a term which has meant many different things at different times and which may or may not actually be tied to anything Alfred Maynard Keynes ever wrote at this point) includes a lot more than just those who could be described as libertarian. But it's probably safe to say the vast majority of libertarians can be included in the non-Keynesian camp.

Also, "belief" is a pretty good way to describe the idea that the government printing money can make us all richer.

Subby, do you know wtf "bankruptcy" is? Do you know the difference between Keynesian and Friedman economic theory is? Do you understand how far we would have to go from our current position to become "bankrupt" (which you technically can't be in a fiat economy)?

God, just STFU, crawl under a rock, and mumble to the other grubs and worms about "creeping socialism". You probably don't know the difference between socialism and what is happening anyway, so you would probably do just as well to make up a word. "Scoopadoo", there you go. "I'ma tired of all this Scoopadoo goin' on..."

Churchill2004: RemyDuron: So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

The people who reject "Keynesianism" (a term which has meant many different things at different times and which may or may not actually be tied to anything Alfred Maynard Keynes ever wrote at this point) includes a lot more than just those who could be described as libertarian. But it's probably safe to say the vast majority of libertarians can be included in the non-Keynesian camp.

Also, "belief" is a pretty good way to describe the idea that the government printing money can make us all richer.

Keynesian economic theory relies heavily on the government having a fiat currency system. Otherwise the money would have to be borrowed or already saved to be distributed. Most libertarians are against fiat currency because it empowers the government (and the shadowy banker cabal...the one they haven't found yet) and it affects their personal liberty because the value of their money is not set in stone... or gold.

Churchill2004: Also, "belief" is a pretty good way to describe the idea that the government printing money can make us all richer.

And the government isn't planning to "make us all richer" by printing money. Technically people are richer now because people are saving more instead of spending. They're trying to increase consumer confidence so that people will spend that money to increase circulation.

Churchill2004: RemyDuron: So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

The people who reject "Keynesianism" (a term which has meant many different things at different times and which may or may not actually be tied to anything Alfred Maynard Keynes ever wrote at this point) includes a lot more than just those who could be described as libertarian. But it's probably safe to say the vast majority of libertarians can be included in the non-Keynesian camp.

Also, "belief" is a pretty good way to describe the idea that the government printing money can make us all richer.

Okay, I wasn't challenging the belief, I was just curious.

What do you believe ended the Great Depression?

If it was WW2, what makes WW2 different than government spending on roadways and electrifying regions, etc? It's all deficit government spending going to people for doing work not "sanctioned" by the market (the market has little use for a tank, unless we allow arms dealing to a great degree). While the R&D into manufacturing obviously can help civilian industry, the projects which improved infrastructure also help business, and cleaning up national landmarks (like Mammoth Cave) promote the tourism industry.

And if it was not WW2 or the New Deal, what was it?

Basically I support a lot of social libertarianism, who often outdo the democratic party at being socially liberal, but I can't get by the idea that you seem the think the government can have only a negative effect on the economy. Do you believe the economy could never reach a point of complete collapse without government intervention?

Bunnyhat: Remove all Republicans: Yes, because those were so effective against a dozen guys with box-cutters.

That's be frank. While 9/11 was horrible in it's way, it, and attacks like it, will never defeat this country. It did little accept scare and anger us in the long term.

Yes, you keep believing that comforting line of crap.

Had the terrorists wanted to, they would have extended that attack over several weeks or even months, focusing on our electricity grid, communications infrastructure and transportation systems until they collapsed the entire economy. Hell, it almost happened after 9/11 - but thankfully we all went shopping, built up our debt and, in case you missed it, turned this country into something Ronald Reagan would have labeled the Evil Empire.

Christ, is it that hard to understand how badly you've been lied to and played?

Hat Madder: Klingon Penis
Hat Madder: But bankrupting the country with all the other absurd proposals Obama is pushing is a huge mistake.

Citation is right there in my post moran.

No, it's not and no, it's not.
FAIL is you.

godofusa.com: RemyDuron: So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

No, because Keynesian economics = epic fail.

Let me ask you a direct question.

If this strategy works and the country manages to turn itself around and regain solid economic footing, will you admit that you were wrong or will you instead claim something magical happened?

Seriously.

Random Reality Check: godofusa.com: RemyDuron: So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

No, because Keynesian economics = epic fail.

Let me ask you a direct question.

If this strategy works and the country manages to turn itself around and regain solid economic footing, will you admit that you were wrong or will you instead claim something magical happened?

Seriously.

Of course.

I just don't see how insane deficit spending and further devaluing our currency is going to help the situation. I don't care what Bush did. Obama is making it worse, instead of "change". It's a matter of time before the dollar is seen as a joke investment, if not already. I'm not saying we'll have hyper inflation like in Zimbabwe.. but I will not be shocked if unemployment reaches 15% within 6 months.

Prussian_Roulette: That's what the TOTUS told us, right? That's why "no more earmarks" turned into "well, we need to pass this today, so we'll take those earmarks this time."

So, did you know that you were intentionally distorting the facts so that your point would look valid or are you honestly ignorant but opinionated?

Because either way you choose to go you look like a complete jackass.
I'll let you choose which variety jackass you would prefer to be seen as.

godofusa.com: Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. - Winston Churchill

Damn good thing we aren't heading towards a Socialist country, huh?

Churchill2004: Alfred Maynard Keynes

Oh, one more thing. WHO THE fark IS ALFRED MAYNARD KEYNES?

My favorite part of these threads is where conservatards and libertardians whine over and over about how the black guy who is going to make us all get gay-married and give up our guns is going to wreck the economy, yet have absolutely no counter-plan of their own.

Klingon Penis: My favorite part of these threads is where conservatards and libertardians whine over and over about how the black guy who is going to make us all get gay-married and give up our guns is going to wreck the economy, yet have absolutely no counter-plan of their own.

I have a plan. Do nothing. The government caused all of this, so they will not solve it.

The Congressional Budget Office said doing nothing would be better than passing the spending bill and increasing our deficit.

godofusa.com: Random Reality Check: godofusa.com: RemyDuron: So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

No, because Keynesian economics = epic fail.

Let me ask you a direct question.

If this strategy works and the country manages to turn itself around and regain solid economic footing, will you admit that you were wrong or will you instead claim something magical happened?

Seriously.

Of course.

I just don't see how insane deficit spending and further devaluing our currency is going to help the situation. I don't care what Bush did. Obama is making it worse, instead of "change". It's a matter of time before the dollar is seen as a joke investment, if not already. I'm not saying we'll have hyper inflation like in Zimbabwe.. but I will not be shocked if unemployment reaches 15% within 6 months.

They're not interested in those pesky facts.

I'll tell you how this administration is exactly like the last one.

the last administration used terrorism as the justification for creating more bureacracy and running up larger and larger deficits, not to mention taking on Saddam Hussein.

the current administration is using the economic crisis as an excuse to create huge new government spending programs and increase the national debt by a ridiculous amount.


When Obama was a candidate, he criticized Bush's budgets for adding 2.9 trillion to the debt over 8 years.

The dems are going to add that much to the debt in a single year

There's no change here. It's a liberal fantasy land, where libs who don't have a clue about finance and economics are going batshiat crazy with deficit spending because they believe they can use the economic slowdown as a pivotal issue the same way Bush used terrorism.

It's more of the same, only more. No change here.

godofusa.com: Random Reality Check: godofusa.com: RemyDuron: So, here's a question, do libertarians plain not believe in Keynesian economics?

No, because Keynesian economics = epic fail.

Let me ask you a direct question.

If this strategy works and the country manages to turn itself around and regain solid economic footing, will you admit that you were wrong or will you instead claim something magical happened?

Seriously.

Of course.

I just don't see how insane deficit spending and further devaluing our currency is going to help the situation. I don't care what Bush did. Obama is making it worse, instead of "change". It's a matter of time before the dollar is seen as a joke investment, if not already. I'm not saying we'll have hyper inflation like in Zimbabwe.. but I will not be shocked if unemployment reaches 15% within 6 months.

First off, thanks for the direct and serious response, I do appreciate it.

Okay, my understanding is that Bernanke's thesis explains why this approach works - not that I support Bernanke's ideas.

The idea is that we create hyperinflation, severely devalue the dollar and then pay off our debt with the newly deflated dollar. This, of course, is not without ramifications.

If you take a longer term view of what we have done to our country, perhaps since the 1960s, we have inflated our cost of living to the point where our workforce needs to make more money to live a comfortable lifestyle (not excessive) than our products can bear.

In 1960, my father bought his second house for the equivalent of one year's wages (after taxes) and that is all but impossible today. A brand new, top of the line Chevy, was roughly six weeks pay (after taxes) and my family lived a typical life where my father worked and my mother was a housewife.

That economy no longer exists.

The choice is to either inflate the dollar or deflate our cost of living and I believe both will have to happen.

Now, I am not an Obama supporter, I didn't vote for the guy (after being an early supporter) but I will tell you this, I wouldn't want his job, not for all the money, fame and glory it might bring. There is no road map to follow, no best practices we can turn to and all in all the stakes are incredibly high. If this fails, spectacularly, we might be looking at the beginning of the end for capitalism.

To be honest with you, I don't think I would care which party got into office this last election, I would have prayed just as hard that they could fix this problem.

Or, at least, that's how I read this.
What do you think? I want to know.
What got us here and how do we get out?

godofusa.com:
I have a plan. Do nothing. The government caused all of this, so they will not solve it.

Animatronik: the current administration is using the economic crisis as an excuse to create huge new government spending programs and increase the national debt by a ridiculous amount.

in what way does it benefit Obama to increase the national debt?