"I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races...

I am not nor have ever been in favor of making voters or jurors out of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."

Abraham Lincoln; Lincoln-Douglas debate.

Suck it revisionist historians. Americas past is bleak, there is no hero in the stove-pipe hat.

Waiting for the other IL president to make a comeback...

Grant

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: there is no hero in the stove-pipe hat.

Agreed. He's a racist rethuglican like all the others.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: "I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races...

I am not nor have ever been in favor of making voters or jurors out of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."

Abraham Lincoln; Lincoln-Douglas debate.

Suck it revisionist historians. Americas past is bleak, there is no hero in the stove-pipe hat.

Um, he freed the slaves. And 140 years later, we're still not living together in perfect harmony. Hell, it took 100 years before federal laws were even passed attempting equality.

Freeing the slaves was step 1. The language you quoted was step 500. Perhaps he knew the public wouldn't swallow the whole pill at once.

This is the reason he is soooo cool!
(new window)

Not an endorsement of the piss that is Mountain Dew.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: Suck it revisionist historians.

Every history of Lincoln I've ever read has addressed his bias. As I understand it he came around to a different way of thinking before he died. And the fact that he possessed a racism that was characteristic of his times does not negate the good he did.

Worst president ever. He's on the penny for a reason. Think ass-pennies.

WaltzingMathilda: Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: "I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races...

I am not nor have ever been in favor of making voters or jurors out of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."

Abraham Lincoln; Lincoln-Douglas debate.

Suck it revisionist historians. Americas past is bleak, there is no hero in the stove-pipe hat.

Um, he freed the slaves. And 140 years later, we're still not living together in perfect harmony. Hell, it took 100 years before federal laws were even passed attempting equality.

Freeing the slaves was step 1. The language you quoted was step 500. Perhaps he knew the public wouldn't swallow the whole pill at once.

He was a Racist and he was corrupt. The Emancipation Proclamation was for keeping European nations from recognizing the CSA and becuase all the poor white northerners were sick and tired of fighting a Rich man's war for railroads and profit. Draft riots anyone?

Lincoln himself believed that the institution of slavery would be phased out of the American system naturally through economic and industrial advances over the next 50-80 years and that it was important to begin the preperations for the future deportation of freed African slaves to ensure the longevity of the union and the continued employability of the white industrial worker.

He was just like modern politicians, he was in the pocket of big industry and the railroads and he was unfortunate enough to get into office at the same time that the previous 16 years of mismanagement came to head. That's the only comparison that could be made to Obama.

Oh, he was also a raging Rascist and Corpratist.

And as far as his policies go he was much more like Bush than Obama. Arresting journalists, cancelling Habeus Corpus, threatening to disband Congress and have the Supreme Court Justices arrested, etc etc.

Making a hero out of Lincoln for freeing the slaves would be like praising a common convenient store robber for accidentally murdering Hitler. With the proper adjustments to Space-Time of course.

Yay! He's a hero!

Every country need's a hero though right?

mryoop789: Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: Suck it revisionist historians.

Every history of Lincoln I've ever read has addressed his bias. As I understand it he came around to a different way of thinking before he died. And the fact that he possessed a racism that was characteristic of his times does not negate the good he did.

Nothing would ever negate the fact that he did indeed make people free. But to raise him to his current level in the Pantheon of National heroes is a disservice to many more good and honest men who came before and after him and did great deeds for the sake of doing right as opposed to doing great deeds for political expediency.

From what I have come to understand is that he was a RASCIST even for that time period but that his motivations for preventing the continued spread of slavery were moral. He does have that going for him.

But he also did say that if he could save the Union without abolishing slavery within the States that it already existed he would.

I've always loved Lincoln; I read that extremely long book "the Day Lincoln died" when I was about 12. I think I liked him because he was so sad and had so many personal demons, but still did great things with his life.

Now that I'm old and traumatized, I admire that even more.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach

Look, no one thinks Lincoln wanted a black man to be a senator, or a judge, or even having the same voting rights that that a white man did. But he also didn't think white WOMEN should have those rights.

The man was a product of his times. Of course he was racist. And Sexist. And a creationist.

Lincoln was for Union power over States Rights.

The 'union' of revisionist Confederacy (the one that says stuff like "they would have freed the slaves themselves" and "they were out for protecting the constitution!") always has hated Lincoln, to this day.

I suspect a lot of the butt-hurt over his less-than-perfect stance against slavery is, discovered fully, more Rebel latter-day noise than anything.

We had a war over ideas, 17th century pastoral versus 18th century industrial. Immigrant friendly versus old money rule. Slavery outlawed versus slavery tolerated.

WHICH SIDE WON.

And which side hasn't STFU'd about whining over it since.

Note: School kids in the north don't call it "The War of Northern Aggression."

Generation_D: Note: School kids in the north don't call it "The War of Northern Aggression."

I didn't know there were any southern schoolkids.

Fark is troll-a-rific today

Generation_D: Lincoln was for Union power over States Rights.

The 'union' of revisionist Confederacy (the one that says stuff like "they would have freed the slaves themselves" and "they were out for protecting the constitution!") always has hated Lincoln, to this day.

I suspect a lot of the butt-hurt over his less-than-perfect stance against slavery is, discovered fully, more Rebel latter-day noise than anything.

We had a war over ideas, 17th century pastoral versus 18th century industrial. Immigrant friendly versus old money rule. Slavery outlawed versus slavery tolerated.

WHICH SIDE WON.

And which side hasn't STFU'd about whining over it since.

Note: School kids in the north don't call it "The War of Northern Aggression."

Nah, the CSA would not have freed the slaves themselves.

It would have happened after the United States, German Empire, Austrian Empire, Ottoman Empire Alliance defeated the CSA, Britain, France, and Russia in World War 1. Then the newly freed slaves would have been struggling against the poor white southern farmers in a rapidly industrializing wasteland, causing eventually race riots and another Civil War.

oh and FYI, we call it "The War of the Industrial Capitalist Lap Dog Lincoln against the Racist Slave Mongering Inbred Agrarian Oligarchs" where I come from.

In the books, Abe's cool. In the movies, he's a pussy.

Generation_D: I suspect a lot of the butt-hurt over his less-than-perfect stance against slavery is, discovered fully, more Rebel latter-day noise than anything

Pretty much this. Yes, his stance on slavery varied from time to time, but he was not stupid and knew you had to play the game and be smarter than who you're dealing with. For how much he supposedly thought black people were inferior and needed to be deported, it seems strange that on record, Frederick Douglass called Lincoln, "the only white man who I ever felt like I was being treated as an equal by" and Frederick Douglass was not instantly enamored with Lincoln for no reason, as the records in the archives show. Another anecdote was how Lincoln was talking to Douglass at the white house and the governor of Connecticut walked in. Lincoln told him to wait while enjoying a talk with his "good friend Douglass". In summary, lincoln's views on black folk and slavery is significantly more nuanced than zero-sum southern revisionists like to prefer for their ridiculous propaganda.

It is also true that in the course of the Lincoln-Douglas debates that Lincoln destroyed Douglas' credibility for a presidential run (and thus solidifying his victory two years later) by prodding him into saying that it is the states' choice to be free or slave state, which didn't go over too well with the 'states rights' crowd in the south whose idea of states rights only applied if it was those of their choosing.

I find it funny how all of the contemporary accounts of this from enemies and friends never doubt Lincoln's sincerity in these things, yet furious anti-lincoln revisionists cherry-pick cynical campaign statements as "proof" that Lincoln was no better than the rest.

The "war of northern aggression" was a typical war for control of influence over an area both sides wanted. The south had spent the last 20 years agitating to split and one would be idiotic to think that the split south and north would both just come to common ground on their manifest destinies. It also didn't help that Richmond's version of Rush Limbaugh was saying every day that once the south split, they would destroy the north. Lincoln took these threats seriously because they were shaping public agitation of the south and influencing the political decisions of those such as Jeff Davis and others. He saw preservation of the union as not being really relevant to states rights and all that but as a more basic preservation of the compact of the people of the united states ensuring the liberties and opportunities of the people and felt obligated as the executive to do everything in his power to preserve those liberties and opportunities.

For those who always invoke the revocation of Habeas Corpus -- how about reading the actual order and how many times it was used. Please, don't make statements about subjects of which you have no relevant understanding of.

I just can't get over the level of ignorance and willful stupidity exhibited thus far. Absolutely pathetic.
/citation list in profile
//Ol' Barack is no Lincoln

WaltzingMathilda: Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: "I am not nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races...

I am not nor have ever been in favor of making voters or jurors out of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the races which I believe will for ever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality."

Abraham Lincoln; Lincoln-Douglas debate.

Suck it revisionist historians. Americas past is bleak, there is no hero in the stove-pipe hat.

Um, he freed the slaves. And 140 years later, we're still not living together in perfect harmony. Hell, it took 100 years before federal laws were even passed attempting equality.

Freeing the slaves was step 1. The language you quoted was step 500. Perhaps he knew the public wouldn't swallow the whole pill at once.

Lincoln did not free the slaves. He issued (illegally) the Emancipation Proclamation which only "freed" slaves in the states in "rebellion".

The passage of the 14th ammendment freed the slaves: Link (new window)

Section 1:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

And the 13th:

Link (new window)

Sorry, 13th freed the slaves, the 14th made them citizens

eddyatwork: He's on the penny for a reason.

His father touched his butthole.

AiryAnne: Lincoln did not free the slaves. He issued (illegally) the Emancipation Proclamation which only "freed" slaves in the states in "rebellion".

Which law was broken? It was an executive order of the commander in chief of the US military in a time of declared war against another country. It was an effort to undermine the military effort of the opponent. WIth Robert E. Lee knocking on the door from across the Potomac, it would be silly to think that a few expediencies might be if not 100% correct, at least somewhat justified. America should consider itself lucky the the civil war happened under Lincoln and not Buchanan or Johnson.

Conservationist: We're too tolerant of stupidity in this society. We all biatch about how dumb things are, but then when some total idiot comes along, we're all charged up to defend his "rights."

Most people want the states to have more rights, but then they condemn the Confederacy because, among many other things, they wanted to keep slavery legal.

Life gets good for humans at about 120 IQ points. I would have no problem living in a society that enslaved people under 100 IQ points on the basis that they lack the ability to make decisions on their own.

As someone who recognizes that diversity/multiculturalism/globalism (same thing) has never worked throughout history, I would prefer those slaves to be from the same rough genetic background as other citizens.

4/10. It's still early so this might rise as the thread goes on, and I'm giving a couple of bonus points because some people actually believe thhat shiat.

My great great granddad is the Douglas of the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Which he actually beat Lincoln in the first time, for Senate.

But when the war broke out he stood with Lincoln, and for the Union.

Lincoln lived 150 years ago. The farkers complaining about old Abe, if they lived 150 years ago, would take the Injun's land away if gold was found on it.

Woohoo, my favorite thing. Lincoln flame-war. Was he a traitor for allowing the civil war which caused more americans to die ever and by setting free unskilled, uneducated, begrudged, and (as Lincoln described) inferior Africans that were sold as slaves by fellow Africans, as was customary around the world, upon the land, whose ancestors now want reparations, and ruin neighborhoods in record fashion or a hero?
I say traitor. He would be a hero if he had avoided the War of Northern Aggression, and freed all the slaves back to their native lands.

/anyone wanna see a video of Rwandans burning fellow Rwandans alive for beig witches? It's quite disturbing(or funny). Link Probably NSFW

I see these threads as a great opportunity to update my list of the stupidest/least read/trolliest farkers on fark.

006andahalf:
//Ol' Barack is no Lincoln

Lincoln and Obama are very much alike

1. Lincoln placed his hand on the Bible for his inauguration. Obama used the same Bible.

2. Lincoln came from Illinois . Obama comes from Illinois .

3. Lincoln served in the Illinois Legislature. Obama served in the Illinois Legislature.

4. Lincoln had very little experience before becoming President. Obama had very little experience before becoming President.

5. Lincoln rode the train from Philadelphia to Washington for his inauguration. Obama rode the train from Philadelphia to Washington for his inauguration.

6. Lincoln was a skinny lawyer Obama is a skinny lawyer.

7. Lincoln was a Republican. Obama is a skinny lawyer.

8. Lincoln was highly respected. Obama is a skinny lawyer.

9. Lincoln was born in the United States . Obama is a skinny lawyer.

10. Lincoln was called Honest Abe. Obama is a skinny lawyer

TheMiddleFinger: Probably NSFW

Submit that with the Amusing tag, guaranteed greenlight right there.

006andahalf: I see these threads as a great opportunity to update my list of the stupidest/least read/trolliest farkers on fark.

It's Saturday, it's a whole day for trolling!

Why is Lincoln cool? Because he always has been. His writing is easily the best by any US president (pace Jefferson).

Why is he hot now? It's his 200th anniversary.

I like Barry O, but let's not get carried away.

The Lincoln threads always remind me how Libertarians' brains are full of tumors.

Conservationist:
Life gets good for humans at about 120 IQ points. I would have no problem living in a society that enslaved people under 100 IQ points on the basis that they lack the ability to make decisions on their own.

Well that's a load of crap right there. I took the WAIS III I.Q. test and my score puts me in the top 5%. I pass 100 people on the street and I'm smarter than 95 of them. This has in no way made my life "good". In fact I only know that my I.Q. is in the top 5% because I was given the I.Q. test the first time I was committed to a mental hospital. I suffer Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, my high I.Q. is a side effect of having OCD. "Suffer" being the key word here as at times OCD makes my life a miserable living hell. While there have been many positives to having a high I.Q. there have been many more times where I would have gladly had it shaved to below average if it meant getting a little peace and finally being able to be happy.

Anyone who thinks having a high I.Q. automatically guarantee's someone a better life and makes them a better person is, quite frankly, an idiot.

Robert1966: Why is Lincoln cool?

His stance on RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE...

Ghastly: Conservationist:
Life gets good for humans at about 120 IQ points. I would have no problem living in a society that enslaved people under 100 IQ points on the basis that they lack the ability to make decisions on their own.

Well that's a load of crap right there. I took the WAIS III I.Q. test and my score puts me in the top 5%. I pass 100 people on the street and I'm smarter than 95 of them. This has in no way made my life "good". In fact I only know that my I.Q. is in the top 5% because I was given the I.Q. test the first time I was committed to a mental hospital. I suffer Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, my high I.Q. is a side effect of having OCD. "Suffer" being the key word here as at times OCD makes my life a miserable living hell. While there have been many positives to having a high I.Q. there have been many more times where I would have gladly had it shaved to below average if it meant getting a little peace and finally being able to be happy.

Anyone who thinks having a high I.Q. automatically guarantee's someone a better life and makes them a better person is, quite frankly, an idiot.

Indeed, read Flowers for Algernon?

Also, no offense intended of course, but as I read that I kept picturing you touching your chin every time you hit a "."

Conservationist: 006andahalf: I see these threads as a great opportunity to update my list of the stupidest/least read/trolliest farkers on fark.

Why would you even bother to say that?

Wishing doesn't make it so, and you don't know how many people out there read each poster.

You didn't think of that, I know.

1)Because I felt like it.

2)this statement is ambiguous to the point of being unintelligible

3)lol wut?

and to continue the above:

11)Lincoln was the son of a farmer from Kentucky and his mother was an illegitimate daughter of a virginia plantation owner -- Barack is a tall skinny Kenyan national

12)Lincoln worked as a railsplitter - Barack was a skinny tall lawyer

13)Lincoln was a flatboat pilot on the MIssissippi -- Barack was a tall skinny lawyer

14)Lincoln was for all intents and purposes a tall skinny self-educated lawyer. Bacack is a tall skinny Harvard-educated lawyer

15)Lincoln won the nomination for president in part by packing the convention with his people. Barack won the nomination by packing the media with his people. And he's a tall skinny lawyer.

16)Lincoln beat one of the most formidable speakers since Patrick Henry in the election for president--two years before the actual election -- Barack could barely fend off Hillary.

17)Lincoln chose his defeated primary opponent for Secretary of State. Barack chose his defeated primary opponent for secretary of state.

18)Lincoln was a borderline agnostic. Barack had Rev. Wright

19)Lincoln was voted out of the House for his questioning of the president's manipulation of evidence in the leadup to the (ostensibly illegal) Mexican American war of 1848. Barack made a lot of ineffectual noise.

20)Lincoln was a tall skinny lawyer and career politician. Barack is a tall skinny lawyer, career politician, Stalinist agent and voice of God himself.

/Why so serious?

006andahalf:

That's a great reading list btw.

As far as Imperial Hubris and Mike Scheuer goes,
The fact that his book is so highly admired by so-called "liberals" is comical given his admiration of Robert E. Lee and the Confederate cause (not confederate values) along with his admiration of Reagan.

Reagan was a Classical liberalist and by reading Lee's writings he would have been considered one as well to a much lower degree and the primary difference between Modern "Left" and "Right" in our country at the moment is just how "Progressive" they are. The base of both parties currently, regardless of what they say is Liberalism.

And becuase of your response to my excellent attempt at trolling and the other books in your list I am getting "Kingmakers: The Invention of the Modern Middle East" from the library this week.

Thanks.

So the propable son of former slave traders becoming president has what to do with Abraham Lincoln?

hillbillypharmacist: Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: there is no hero in the stove-pipe hat.

Agreed. He's a racist rethuglican like all the others.

Obama isn't racist?

Griswold: 9. Lincoln was born in the United States . Obama is a skinny lawyer.


Ohhh...damn. Setting up a good joke, and then dropping the ball at the end. Always hate to see that.

Ghastly: "Well that's a load of crap right there. I took the WAIS III I.Q. test and my score puts me in the top 5%. I pass 100 people on the street and I'm smarter than 95 of them. This has in no way made my life "good". In fact I only know that my I.Q. is in the top 5% because I was given the I.Q. test the first time I was committed to a mental hospital. I suffer Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, my high I.Q. is a side effect of having OCD."

Sup. Top 2% here. TAG/GATE education testing. ADHD up the yin yang.

I suspect that the brain is like most processors in that as you increase the complexity and performance, you decrease the stability. Hence, lots of neurological disorders to be found in the brighter crowds.

/I don't have it myself but I find aspergers/neuroticism sort of charming in women, while most others find the associated behaviors intolerable.

RosevilleDan: Griswold: 9. Lincoln was born in the United States . Obama is a skinny lawyer.


Ohhh...damn. Setting up a good joke, and then dropping the ball at the end. Always hate to see that.

Sorry....missed your point. What should it have been?

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: "Kingmakers: The Invention of the Modern Middle East"


Obamas Kingmaker. Might not have won the senate seat without her.

WaltzingMathilda: Um, he freed the slaves. And 140 years later, we're still not living together in perfect harmony. Hell, it took 100 years before federal laws were even passed attempting equality.

He freed slaves to win a war, not to free slaves.

He was never uncool. Dude was a bad motherfakrer:

heinekenftw: WaltzingMathilda: Um, he freed the slaves. And 140 years later, we're still not living together in perfect harmony. Hell, it took 100 years before federal laws were even passed attempting equality.

He freed slaves to win a war, not to free slaves.

Well, it worked. Perhaps we should enslave them again to clean up this mess in Iraq.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: 006andahalf:

That's a great reading list btw.

As far as Imperial Hubris and Mike Scheuer goes,
The fact that his book is so highly admired by so-called "liberals" is comical given his admiration of Robert E. Lee and the Confederate cause (not confederate values) along with his admiration of Reagan.

Reagan was a Classical liberalist and by reading Lee's writings he would have been considered one as well to a much lower degree and the primary difference between Modern "Left" and "Right" in our country at the moment is just how "Progressive" they are. The base of both parties currently, regardless of what they say is Liberalism.

And becuase of your response to my excellent attempt at trolling and the other books in your list I am getting "Kingmakers: The Invention of the Modern Middle East" from the library this week.

Thanks.

Enjoy it. The kingmaker I found most interesting was Harry St. John Bridger Philby. Second place goes to Sir Percy Cox.

I should have been clearer in my review of Scheuer on 'liberals' - I didn't figure anyone would even think of the classical definition. By "liberal" I in the context of my micro-review, I mean, "21st century Democrats and other non-conservative Reagan-bashers."

Why does everyone seem to forget that Lincoln was an avowed racist?

Broadswords in a pit!

I had always understood Lincoln abolished slavery for vote-gaining purposes than rectifying anything proper.

Seamer: I had always understood Lincoln abolished slavery for vote-gaining purposes than rectifying anything proper.

Just as our politicians today are allowing millions of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS to flood our country and do nothing about it. VOTES. It's voter fraud at it's finest.