I hardly think it's the job of government step in and solve the issue of a dilapidated school for welfare queens and their children who refuse to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and solve their own problems. This is America, and they should all really move to a better neighborhood if they don't like where they are.


/currently practicing to run for office as a Republican here in Texas

But her governor, Mark Sanford, announced he wouldn't use his share of the stimulus money on projects like rebuilding her school.

"It's easy to fall into the trap of we need to fix this one school," said Sanford, a Republican. "The hat that I wear is to look as best as I can -- and it will be imperfect -- at the state in its entirety."

You. Are. INSANE.

What the hell, is this Governor crazy? How does he expect to win an election in South Carolina when he won't even fix a... *sees the picture in the article* oh... never mind... picture is worth a thousand words in the South some days.

Damn red neck bigots.

Ty'Sheoma Bethea...

I can't believe someone actually named their child that.

I am truly loving the long, slow self-immolation of the Republican party as they doggedly continue the collective stumble toward richly-deserved irrelevancy they've been chasing for years. The depths to which they'll sink to engineer their own demise never cease to amaze me.

Has there ever been any research conducted that looks at the condition of the physical buildings a student learns in and whether or not that effects their ability to learn?

KaponoFor3: Ty'Sheoma Bethea...

I can't believe someone actually named their child that.

I don't want to assume from her name that this girl is someone who has had to start her life with the odds stacked against her, but it pisses me off beyond all measure that here we have a kid who WANTS a decent education, - something that 75% of all teenagers seem to not give a flying fark about - and she can't even farking get that, after recieving a personal nod from the farking president. No one can even find a half-million dollars to fix the farking facilities.

This country is farking. over.

To be fair, Ms. Bethea did go over the Governor's head by asking the Federal Government for assistance before Mr. Sanford had a chance to deny her request for a safe school building.

HotLonelyTeenageGirl: it pisses me off beyond all measure that here we have a kid who WANTS a decent education, - something that 75% of all teenagers seem to not give a flying fark about - and she can't even farking get that

Can we automatically assume that shoddy physical facilities means you can't get a decent education?

KaponoFor3: Can we automatically assume that shoddy physical facilities means you can't get a decent education?

Yes.

JoJoTheIdiotMonkeyBoy: Yes.

Maybe I phrased that incorrectly -- can we automatically assume that shoddy physical facilities are the reason people can't get a decent education?

I'm more than willing to look at some studies if people can link me to them.

KaponoFor3: HotLonelyTeenageGirl: it pisses me off beyond all measure that here we have a kid who WANTS a decent education, - something that 75% of all teenagers seem to not give a flying fark about - and she can't even farking get that

Can we automatically assume that shoddy physical facilities means you can't get a decent education?

Yeah, dude, that is exactly what that means. Please do not be purposefully obtuse and even suggest that a modern, safe, functional building does not directly effect and contribute to a quality education. Because I cannot believe that a person could possibly claim that.

KaponoFor3: Can we automatically assume that shoddy physical facilities means you can't get a decent education?

Yes.

A 1991 correlational study of building condition and student achievement in the Washington D.C. Schools, found that educational building conditions were hampering student performance, and estimated that improved facilities could lead to a 5.5% to 11% improvement on standardized tests (Edwards, 1991).
Link (new window)

KaponoFor3: JoJoTheIdiotMonkeyBoy: Yes.

Maybe I phrased that incorrectly -- can we automatically assume that shoddy physical facilities are the reason people can't get a decent education?

I'm more than willing to look at some studies if people can link me to them.

THE reason? no. A reason. yes.farking republicans. they'll loot the treasury to bomb brown people - but if you spend a goddamn DIME to improve the lot of an american, they freak the fark out. fark them. fark all of them.

FTA:

That means Ty'Sheoma's community is left with its school, whose condition is astonishing.

"The auditorium is condemned," she said on the tour through the crumbling structure. "They use the stage for storage."

She looked around and said the walls are peeling off and debris has fallen from the ceiling. The gymnasium is in such bad shape, the basketball coach has to cancel games when it rains.

"The roof leaks water through the small cracks at the top of the roof," Ty'Sheoma said.

Many classes are taught in trailers on the school grounds. But the walls are so thin, teachers have to pause when trains roll by, which happens about five times a day.fark this subhuman scumbag piece of republican garbage.

Code_Archeologist: Yes.

The link is not actually to the study you list, so I can't really comment directly on it unfortunately. But I wonder if improvement on standardized testing truly reflects a better education, or just better teaching to the test?

Also, if better buildings mean better student performance, shouldn't we see increased student performance at newer schools? At schools that have recently been remodeled?

KaponoFor3 Can we automatically assume that shoddy physical facilities means you can't get a decent education?


While your compassion is overwhelming, the building is not just "shoddy", it is partially condemned. Link (new window)

It's a nice story that the President picked out her letter as an example of what the stimulus money would do. Her story however is not unique. This is a perfect opportunity to remedy an obvious inequity, but the governor will not take federal money to repair leaking schools because, in his words, he would be falling into a trap. Between Mark and Ty'Sheoma, it's pretty obvious which one is acting like a teenage girl.

My concern, in a broad, overarching sense, is that our government has spent billions of dollars on education spending in the last 20-30 years or so, and we haven't seen a corresponding rise in student performance/academic achievement. If the problem was simply making more money available for school funding, shouldn't we have seen the benefit by this point? The fact that we haven't means that money/availability of funds is not the problem.

HotLonelyTeenageGirl: Yeah, dude, that is exactly what that means. Please do not be purposefully obtuse and even suggest that a modern, safe, functional building does not directly effect and contribute to a quality education. Because I cannot believe that a person could possibly claim that.

That's asking a lot from the 3 time MVP for Independent Farking^TM.

Only Republican schools can save this girl. Only Republican money can help her learn.

KaponoFor3: The link is not actually to the study you list, so I can't really comment directly on it unfortunately. But I wonder if improvement on standardized testing truly reflects a better education, or just better teaching to the test?

You are being obtuse now, by not reading the whole article. The referenced documents are at the bottom of the page.

Link 1 (new window)
Link 2 (new window)

I want to know how this asshole paid for his house and car.

Code_Archeologist: What the hell, is this Governor crazy? How does he expect to win an election in South Carolina when he won't even fix a... *sees the picture in the article* oh... never mind... picture is worth a thousand words in the South some days.

Damn red neck bigots.

He's probably setting himself up for a shot at the national title in 2012. I'm guessing he figures it will play well with the "OMG!! Secret Muslin!!" crowd in *other* Red States.

I_Love_Verdi: I want to know how this asshole paid for his house and car.

I hear bootstraps is a very lucrative business. Or, you would think so, listening to republicans.

I don't even bother putting a capital letter on that word now.

Sgt Otter:
He's probably setting himself up for a shot at the national title in 2012. I'm guessing he figures it will play well with the "OMG!! Secret Muslin!!" crowd in *other* Red States.

He can't run for reelection. This makes him look good ideologically, while still giving his legislature and opportunity to request and receive the money. (Though he will likely have to sign the budget).

Sgt Otter: He's probably setting himself up for a shot at the national title in 2012. I'm guessing he figures it will play well with the "OMG!! Secret Muslin!!" crowd in *other* Red States.

Look how well that worked in 2008. We can clearly see that the strategy worked and NObama stole the election by using ACORN and welfare queens like Oprah.

NObama is not legally President. He stole the election and he was born in Afghanistan.

/I really suck at this trolling thing.

KaponoFor3: Excellent discussion about education spending and academic achievement

The Heritage Foundation? I always turn to "think tanks" for my daily dose of retard.

Why not post an article by Thomas Sowell next? The Hoover Institute is a hoot.

I don't give a rats ass about whether your kids think their school looks nice, but this is a health and safety issue. The auditorium is condemned, so essentially it's illegal to even go in there.
How one part of a building can be condemmed, but not another, is beyond me.

Leaky roofs are a health hazard, as is peeling paint, because even though it might not contain lead, it can't be cleaned properly.

NewportBarGuy: The Heritage Foundation? I always turn to "think tanks" for my daily dose of retard.

Oh noes a "Fark Independent" think tank!

A good portion of the statistics that they quote is from the Department of Education, another noted "Fark Independent" think tank.

I have no problem viewing a source with skepticism, but that is not enough reason to outright reject it. Hell, I don't like DailyKos links but I still will read them and not automatically assume they are full of shiat.

KaponoFor3: Hell, I don't like DailyKos links but I still will read them...

You're a better man than I, then. I'd rather suffer a paper cut on my eye...

The kid has exactly the kind of attitude that Republicans don't believe poor black people exhibit. She saw a major problem and tried to do something about it - a problem directly tied to her future.

It's a shame that her name - statistically speaking - means she will be treated as well as people with more normal names, although as a female the impact is less than a male with the same nomenclature issue.

/Freakonomics is a good book if you're into this sort of thing. Or for real world applications, take a quick survey amongst people with hiring powers and ask them if they would hire her based on first impressions of name alone... if they're really honest...

I suggest that the Governor and the school kids swap digs for a week. Let him live in the school. Let a few dozen of the kids live in the Governor's Mansion.

Just for fun, of course ;)

KaponoFor3: Excellent discussion about education spending and academic achievement

ok... but it does not address the specific point of facility spending as it relates to improvements in academic achievement, only general spending. Second his data points do not specifically exclude federal spending per student at the collegiate level (a cost that has doubled to tripled in the past 30 years), and I think that if federal college assistance programs were removed from this we might get a very different picture.

KaponoFor3: I still will read them and not automatically assume they are full of shiat.

I've read so much bullshiat from think tanks in the past decade as to just paint them with a broad brush. All of them, right and left.

There are some nuggets of good out there, but you have to wade through an ocean of crap.

KaponoFor3: Excellent discussion about education spending and academic achievement

It overlooks the issue of funding inequality between school districts, sometimes within the same municipality.

KaponoFor3:
Oh noes a "Fark Independent" think tank!

A good portion of the statistics that they quote is from the Department of Education, another noted "Fark Independent" think tank.

I have no problem viewing a source with skepticism, but that is not enough reason to outright reject it. Hell, I don't like DailyKos links but I still will read them and not automatically assume they are full of shiat.

And they do mediocre analysis at best. The most poignant thing they observe is that there is more to ensuring our kids get a good education than funding. But this should be trivially obvious to anybody who actually passed high school.

If somebody has access, here is a link that suggests we need to target our spending. Link (new window)

Here is a study with some further analysis: The paper studies a typical state-level education finance equalization scheme, and considers two questions. First, what fraction of state education aid is spent on schools? And second, does increased educational funding for historically low-spending districts lead to improved student achievement? Estimates based on variation in spending caused by state aid formulas suggest that 50 to 75 cents of each dollar of education aid were spent on schools. Estimates also suggest that increased spending improved 4th-grade test scores, but show no effect on 8th-grade test scores. Further analysis shows that increases in 4th-grade average test scores were associated with improved performance by low-scoring students. Link (new window)

This study (new window) strongly suggests that many test gaps are in fact do to school quality: In previous research, a substantial gap in test scores between white and black students persists, even after controlling for a wide range of observable characteristics. Using a newly available data set (the Early Childhood Longitudinal Study), we demonstrate that in stark contrast to earlier studies, the black-white test score gap among incoming kindergartners disappears when we control for a small number of covariates. Real gains by black children in recent cohorts appear to play an important role in explaining the differences between our findings and earlier research. The availability of better covariates also contributes. Over the first two years of school, however, blacks lose substantial ground relative to other races. There is suggestive evidence that differences in school quality may be an important part of the explanation. None of the other hypotheses we test to explain why blacks are losing ground receive any empirical backing.

The reality is it's not as simple as saying "Oh, well students haven't shown noticable returns in the past 20 years, so stop funding them." There are multiple variables at play, and policy analysis which fundamentally disregards the roots of the problem is absurd. That is not to say everything the Heritage foundation does is incorrect, but the provided analysis was hardly proving any point.

NewportBarGuy:
I've read so much bullshiat from think tanks in the past decade as to just paint them with a broad brush. All of them, right and left.

This. They are policy driven. They are trying to get things enacted, or persuade public opinion. They aren't necessarily in it for honest analysis.

This is really not your finest hour, KaponoFor3.

Obdicut: This is really not your finest hour, KaponoFor3.

The Obama thread (last week: crisis, this week: not as bad as we think) wasn't yours, Fluffy.

Throwing money at the problem hasn't solved anything in the last 20-30 years, yet some people continue to believe that is the best way to improve academic achievement. Isn't that the definition of insanity -- doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result THIS time?

If this school is in crappy shape then she'll not only get an academic education, but she'll learn to adapt to negative environments and overcome disadvantages as well. Win/win.

If anything we should be yanking funding from nicer schools so that better off students can get these advantages also.

Can we all agree that there is a certain percentage of parents and students who do not care about getting an education? I don't think that's really saying anything controversial.

Then why don't we start allowing those kids who happen to live in lower SES areas who DO give a crap about education the right to choose the school they go to?

KaponoFor3: Can we all agree that there is a certain percentage of parents and students who do not care about getting an education? I don't think that's really saying anything controversial.

Then why don't we start allowing those kids who happen to live in lower SES areas who DO give a crap about education the right to choose the school they go to?

Why don't we fix the parenting problem with targeted education programs, including public funding for parenting classes, mandated public broadcasting on issues about education and parenting, and try to uplift all of our society rather than just write off a bunch of kids because their parents don't know what to do?

Stop trying to avoid problems because you think they aren't solvable. If you actually make an effort, things can improve. Republicans are the laziest bunch of people, especially considering how much they whine about earning every penny through the grit of their teeth.

KaponoFor3,

Congress doesn't need a huge building of their own. They could just as easily do their work in a large steel hangar with no climate control. We could save untold millions by ending all upkeep funding for their building.

Would you have a problem with that?

KaponoFor3: Then why don't we start allowing those kids who happen to live in lower SES areas who DO give a crap about education the right to choose the school they go to?

Because a child does not choose their parent's, and a child should not be punished with a lack of opportunity because they have neglectful parents that are too lazy to see that their child gets a good education.

SchlingFocker: Congress doesn't need a huge building of their own. They could just as easily do their work in a large steel hangar with no climate control. We could save untold millions by ending all upkeep funding for their building.

Would you have a problem with that?

Absolutely not. I think the Capitol Building is a really cool piece of architecture, don't get me wrong, but it's not a necessity.

sloppy shoes: Why don't we fix the parenting problem with targeted education programs, including public funding for parenting classes, mandated public broadcasting on issues about education and parenting, and try to uplift all of our society rather than just write off a bunch of kids because their parents don't know what to do?

Because you can't force parents to care about their kids' educations unfortunately.

KaponoFor3: Absolutely not. I think the Capitol Building is a really cool piece of architecture, don't get me wrong, but it's not a necessity.

Oh, well then, carry on :)

As long as we're arguing for cutting unnecessary expenses at all levels, I'm game.

KaponoFor3:
Because you can't force parents to care about their kids' educations unfortunately.

Except you can! There are literally hundreds of ways to build community, foster growth, and promote education. And part of our public policy dollars need to be spent towards achieving these goals.

KaponoFor3: Obdicut: This is really not your finest hour, KaponoFor3.

The Obama thread (last week: crisis, this week: not as bad as we think) wasn't yours, Fluffy.

Throwing money at the problem hasn't solved anything in the last 20-30 years, yet some people continue to believe that is the best way to improve academic achievement. Isn't that the definition of insanity -- doing the same thing over and over again but expecting a different result THIS time?

Ask that of anyone who voted Republican this last time out.

sloppy shoes: KaponoFor3:
Because you can't force parents to care about their kids' educations unfortunately.

Except you can! There are literally hundreds of ways to build community, foster growth, and promote education. And part of our public policy dollars need to be spent towards achieving these goals.

You know, that sounds like a lot of work. It's a lot easier to just assume that brown people with funny names can't learn and/or parent. The ones that live in this country, we have to live with. The ones elsewhere, we can bomb.

/Amirite?

SchlingFocker: As long as we're arguing for cutting unnecessary expenses at all levels, I'm game.

Hell yes, I'm all for cutting unnecessary expenses no matter WHAT level they are at.