Sometime you just get sick of hearing "Tom Sawyer."

He gets right on to the friction of the day.

Full of win.

It's interesting how 50 years ago there were liberal evangelicals and Baptists all over. Yet as arch-conservative evangelicals and Baptists started to tie themselves more and more to the GOP, not only did the GOP become more and more their platform, but liberal evangelicals and Baptists became rarer and rarer. It's gone so far that today it's assumed an evangelical is conservative and in the mind of the public ditto for Baptists. Which sucks for Baptists not aligned with the Southern Baptist Convention.

It's a rather interesting slice of history, how as certain religious groups aligned themselves with one party, part of those religious groups basically ceased to exist. For how they treated the liberal elements of their groups they deserve much scorn, the political side of it just adds to it.

If the GOP follows the advice in that article as well as that in Frum's recent article, I might actually return.

So much win in here. For the first time in television history, an interviewee has convinced me to get their book.

NO, it's the LIBS that are ATTACKING the Good, Godly Republicans!!! If you're not WITH US, YOU'RE a TRAITOR! And GODLESS!! And whatever Anne Coulter's next book title may be!

/Actually, it's interesting that we have more than one example of an evangelical who calls shenanigans on the Rep party. I genuinely didn't think they had it in them. I kinda feel a renewed faith in the human race.

// a little bit... :)

I do have kind of an interesting question...

Once upon a time there was a republican party that looked upon education and intelligence favorably. They were conservative, believing in small government. Some were religious, some were not religious... but what they all had in common was their desire to keep government small and unobtrusive in their lives.

Now there is a republican party that is filled with christian zealotry. They are extremely xenophobic in terms of race, religion, ethnicity, language, nationality, sexual preference, and pretty much anything that makes people different from American-raised with western European background. Education is seen as something negative, their figureheads spout talking points that are poorly fact-checked (because nobody cares if they're actually accurate or not), and big spending on things like the military and Iraq are what's in.

So, down to the question:

What happened to the educated and conservative former republicans? Did they become politically apathetic? Are they just trying to ignore the disease that has crept into their party? Did they bail from the republican party?

This somehow seems relevant...

hearty lulz

PoopStain: liberal evangelicals 50 years ago weren't also racist

A lot of liberal evangelicals weren't racists. Reinhold Niebuhr was praised by Martin Luther King Jr. And Niebuhr wasn't alone. Yet today he, or someone like him, wouldn't even get to speak up at a meeting of evangelicals.

It's worth noting one of the most reprehensible religious figures of the early to middle 1900s was Charles Coughlin, a Catholic priest. Who among other lovely things thought fascists were swell, Jews deserved to be treated badly and other fun stuff. At least the Catholic church did eventually get him to STFU.

Xetal: Did they bail from the republican party?

They didn't exactly bail. They pretty well got pushed out and overwhelmed.

While not exactly inline with the question, but it does address some of the issues though from a viewpoint of almost 50 years ago, there's the book Anti-Intellectualism in American Life by Richard Hofstadter. He actually foresaw, to some degree, what came to transpire in the years after. Another book of his, The Paranoid Style in American Politics, a collection of essays, is also worth reading. While Hofstadter may be a bit light on rigorous research, he also isn't off base in his observations either.

Actually for the interested you can read the titular essay from Paranoid Style in American Politics online thanks to Google (pops)

WhyteRaven74: Actually for the interested you can read the titular essay from Paranoid Style in American Politics online thanks to Google (pops)

That's a fantastic read so far, I'll have to check it out in the morning to finish, but damn interesting.

As a Christian who is fed up with the "God is a Republican" mentality, and sick of non-religious people thinking that because I am Christian I must be of that mindset, this really made my day.

Plus he's funny. Also seems to have drank 8 espressos before going on the show, hope he's not always that wound up.

ninjakirby: but damn interesting

glad you like :)

Xetal: What happened to the educated and conservative former republicans?

They examined the situation, thought about it, realized they could not exist, said "oh", then went poof in a puff of logic.

PoopStain: He changed his views later

At the time for an evangelical to even acknowledge Jews was unusual. That was largely a Catholic and Lutheran thing. And Niebuhr would go on to criticize Christians of all stripes for pushing Jews around or trying to. As nice as it is for someone to get it right from the start, there's much to be said for someone who goes from being a product of his time to going beyond it.

We're still here, but your idiot summary of the party belies your own bias.

A bias is a favoring of one side over another. If you loathe both sides then you are not biased. The two best things that could happen to this country are (not in any particular order):

1.) The Republican and Democratic parties dissolve and our political system is based largely on the beliefs and views of individual candidates.

2.) Religions cease to have any political impact at any level.

Interesting reads, WhyteRaven74. Way more than I can burn through in one sitting at 6 in the morning, but I've got it scribbled down and intend to read through it =)

Xetal: A bias is a favoring of one side over another. If you loathe both sides then you are not biased.

....this is a joke right?

....this is a joke right?

Loathing both the Republican and Democratic parties?


Let me perhaps phrase it a different way:

Are you happy with the two-party system that the United States currently has? Are you satisfied that our two-party system has deteriorated to the point where it is basically a sporting event: Team A wants to do this, Team B wants Team A to fail. GO TEAM!!! This idiotic mentality completely ignores the fact that we're stuck in this country together and wanting the other side to fail instead of trying to find some middle ground has consequences that will affect everyone.

No, it isn't a joke. I have a strong dislike for both major parties.

PoopStain: Xetal: What happened to the educated and conservative former republicans? Did they become politically apathetic? Are they just trying to ignore the disease that has crept into their party? Did they bail from the republican party?

We're still here, but your idiot summary of the party belies your own bias.

We are screaming, we are working locally, and we are dismayed that national party effectively quit listening when they found it easier to go for the southern chump vote. The neo-cons are a relatively new phenomenon we've all had to deal with, and I've been saying they spend money like a liberal for years.

National is ruined for the time being. Steele isn't going to turn anything around - he doesn't have the talent or the smarts. He wouldn't have the job if he wasn't black. Some people are going to think that's racist, but it's not. It was a poor play by the RNC to be more "inclusive". He's the best argument against affirmative action the Republican party could possibly have.

The Republicans don't have to reinvent themselves. They have to get back to their libertarian basics. Bush spent so much goddamn money that the Democrats got to pretend to be a fiscally conservative party right up until they got into power, at which point they spent a trillion dollars on pet projects.

The religious wing either needs to shut up or be gone. Social considerations are the exercise of a larger government, not a smaller one. Democrats are comfortable with this. Republicans should not be. That's where I fight from.


This, so much.

We have basically been told to tow thee line or GTFO of the party in the last year. Sarah Palin was an insult to every intellectual Republican in the party. She was essentially a piece of meat thrown to the knuckle-dragging "Go Home Moran" part of America, the part I think should have to prove they are intelligent and informed enough to vote. Call me an elitist, but Rome and Greece didn't stick around for nearly 1000 years because every unwashed, uneducated plebeian numbskull got a crack at picking their next leader. You had to prove some worth to society to vote.

I've spent the last week watching Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip and when D.L Hughley showed up on screen I briefly thought that this was some kind of parody(I don't get CNN and I'm pretty sure his show isn't on in Australia anyway).
Instead it was interesting. I've always found it interesting how closely tied up Religion and politics are in the US, in most countries a politicians religion isn't really an issue(that could be because most Western countries lack the Religious diversity you get in the US with its forty flavours of Christians), but letting any group that is unable to adjust their views and perspectives in the face of a changing environment take over a political party was a risky move that's only served to damage the Republican party.
Flexibility is vital in Politics if only to get things done.

On CNN.

Saw that and closed the window.


You let me know when someone on CNN has something positive to say about either religion or Republicans.

Crude: On CNN.

Saw that and closed the window.

You let me know when someone on CNN has something positive to say about either religion or Republicans.

What's the matter, Spunky? Don't like it when one of your own tells the truth? Go ahead and hide your head in the sand and wail your butthurt at the world. If you can't at least bother to listen to what the man had to say then no one here will give a wet turd what your opinion on the matter is.

PoopStain: That said, he's right about the Jesus freaks - they need to go. I disagree with his assessment of the Republican base, not everyone is a biblical literalist trying to welcome in the end times. They're just the farking loudest and probably because that's all the press pays attention to.

Um, that's what he said. He said that the leadership was kowtowing to the nutjobs, not that all Republicans are crazy.

Crude: On CNN.

Saw that and closed the window.

You let me know when someone on CNN has something positive to say about either religion or Republicans.


If there was ever a way that you could have driven this gentleman's point home more clearly, I can't think of it.

In fact, the man did have several good points about both the Republican Party and religion - but you'll never know - because you are a close-minded moron with predetermined values that will never consider any information that might disagree with your preconceptions.

In short, you are a perfect example of everything that is wrong with this country, encapsulating both sides of the political aisle as well as any religious twist that falls outside of the mainstream.

Bully for you.

I see CNN as much closer to the center then either FOX or MSNBC.


About the only thing I like on NBC is morning joe.

FOX is in pure loony bin mode most of the time.

Crude: On CNN.

Saw that and closed the window.


You let me know when someone on CNN has something positive to say about either religion or Republicans.


Ah, we have a moran among us everyone. Let us welcome the moran in general neo-fascist style, by telling him everything he wants to hear to amplify his heightened sense of aggression during the daily 2 minute hate.

/Orwell, he wasn't so far off there for awhile.
//Think people! Its free and good for the environment, not to mention a great way to meet hot women.

Actually Red Eye is pretty good on FOX come to think of it.

WhyteRaven74

In the mid-20th century there was no Republican party in the South. In retrospect, arbitrarily banning a party from a region helped reduce polarization in politics.

Today, imagine if Californians took offense at Democrats to the extent that a Democrat couldn't get elected. The state would be solid R on paper, but you'd have a lot of liberal Republicans and the Green and Moonbat parties would have a real chance of winning elections. Congress could count on these California Republicans for routine party line votes only; on substantive issues they would break ranks. What could the party leadership do? And unions and other traditionally liberal groups would have a hard time unless they played nice with their traditional foes.

What is this guy's fark handle???

I love the fact we have someone who writes for HuffPo, acting like the typical blogger thinks he is some how an expert on the Republican Party.

This is about as useful as the black pastor who rails on Obama and Obama's mama... And DL Hugley??? Nija please!

ninjakirby: So much win in here. For the first time in television history, an interviewee has convinced me to get their book.

DITTOS! Oh, no, wait...

jpo2269 regardless of his conclusions, what part of his assesment did you disagree with?

Corbin Bernsen should play this guy in the movie version.
They even have the same voice.

Random Reality Check: Crude: On CNN.

Saw that and closed the window.

You let me know when someone on CNN has something positive to say about either religion or Republicans.


If there was ever a way that you could have driven this gentleman's point home more clearly, I can't think of it.

In fact, the man did have several good points about both the Republican Party and religion - but you'll never know - because you are a close-minded moron with predetermined values that will never consider any information that might disagree with your preconceptions.

In short, you are a perfect example of everything that is wrong with this country, encapsulating both sides of the political aisle as well as any religious twist that falls outside of the mainstream.

Bully for you.

He's probably the kind of person who would claim that if this guy went on Fox news and said the exact same stuff that Fox News was liberal.

He's just another jerk making money from religion, but this time he's managed to get the left to pay. Some people get paid to tell conservatives Jesus loves them, apparently now some people get paid to tell liberals that God - if he exists - would never, ever alove conservatives. Pretty clever if you ask me.

At this point, I'm kind of where Frank Schaeffer is. I was involved in that part of the right wing growing up, and what became clear over the last 8 years is that while my own family was much more balanced and nuanced, the majority of that crowd is not. If I'd known then what has become clear now about them all being wingnuts and not just a small fringe element, I wouldn't have supported the people I'd supported. I wish that I'd listened more to the discomfort that I'd had with the whole crowd.

I've been having a running disagreement with my mom for years about whether modern conservatives were predominantly the wingnut, anybody-who-disagrees-with-me-is-an-evil-liberal camp or the more reasonable variety, my mom kept insisting that I was making over-generalizations and that the majority of people weren't like that. I wish this had been one occasion when I was wrong.

As it stands, the only ones who are left are the anti-intellectual extreme fringe. They've driven the rest of us, even those of us who thought we agreed with them, away.

I really wish I had followed my gut a long time ago.

Ah, the left loves a good turncoat.

No big revelations, but no sugarcoating either. I like it.

manduwala: jpo2269 regardless of his conclusions, what part of his assesment did you disagree with?

I'd be very interested in hearing his opinions, as well.

NeverDrunk23: He's probably the kind of person who would claim that if this guy went on Fox news and said the exact same stuff that Fox News was liberal.

<Guffaw>

USP .45: Ah, the left loves a good turncoat.

I would like to think we all love people who make sense.
Please feel free to disagree with me or prove me wrong.

rynthetyn: I really wish I had followed my gut a long time ago.

You're forgiven by this evil liberal.
And keep on being a conservative. Just think for yourself once in awhile.

xkillyourfacex: He's just another jerk making money from religion, but this time he's managed to get the left to pay. Some people get paid to tell conservatives Jesus loves them, apparently now some people get paid to tell liberals that God - if he exists - would never, ever alove conservatives. Pretty clever if you ask me.

Hmm, what video did you watch?
Because the one I watched had nothing to do with your little tirade.
I'll bet you've been saving that screed up for a while, haven't you?

jpo2269
I love the fact we have someone who writes for HuffPo, acting like the typical blogger thinks he is some how an expert on the Republican Party.

Didn't pay close attention to the video, huh?

Funny how you caught the 'writes for HuffPo' but evidently missed: my father was key to the formation of the religious right....

/or just a classic example of confirmation bias

Random Reality Check: USP .45: Ah, the left loves a good turncoat.

I would like to think we all love people who make sense.
Please feel free to disagree with me or prove me wrong.


What are you TALKING about? We cannot have a glorious fourth reich without loyalty! Loyalty is the most important trait!

USP .45:

Ah, the left loves a good turncoat.



Ah, the Right is forever on the wrong side of history.

So has he apologized yet?

Coelacanth: rynthetyn: I really wish I had followed my gut a long time ago.

You're forgiven by this evil liberal.
And keep on being a conservative. Just think for yourself once in awhile.

Yeah, well, I think that most conservatives wouldn't be happy with me if they found out that my objections to things like socialism are far more pragmatic than they are philosophical.

PoopStain: He grew up in an evangelical household, but I don't think the man spent most of his adult life as an actual evangelist. His father did.

That said, he's right about the Jesus freaks - they need to go. I disagree with his assessment of the Republican base, not everyone is a biblical literalist trying to welcome in the end times. They're just the farking loudest and probably because that's all the press pays attention to.

It's a false argument to assume that because the religious right is so noxious that fiscal conservatives have left the party. It's not like we're automatically going to start loving unions and taxes. Politics are still very much local. For every San Francisco there's going to be a Cincinnati.

Not so false as you think.

What do I have to do in a liberal world to maintain status or grow. Make more money. Hey, I have a proven track of that. I'm a developer. I can find new paradigms if that what it takes. In this world, I may get a smaller piece of the pie, but I can still make the pie larger.

What do I have to do to survive in the new conservative world? Reject good science for superstitions and watch us fall behind the world. Here, I get a larger piece of a shrinking pie.

I'll go back to the party when the ideal Republican is not some fool throwing money to televangelists for scams.

Oh,and we need to lose the fear of unions as well. Capitalism is not Mr. Burns owning the power plant. Its numerous individuals investing capital collectively. Labor operating as numerous individuals negotiating for the best return for their investment is NO different ideologically than capital investors negotiating for their best bargain. More labor payments resulting in more capital investments resulting in more laborers with a hope for a profitable retirement will be the only achievement where conservatism can WIN the game.

We're stuck in stupid because our paradigm is "Those who rightfully own vs. those who work by privilege".