GM sends letter to suppliers asking them to lobby congressmen for bailout. One supplier replies back with a few unplesant facts Rush Limbaugh talking points. Hope he has other customers

I'd like to read the urgent "calls to action" he's spent the last 3 decades writing.

It wouldn't surprise me one tiny bit if this was another attempt at a Joe-the-Plumber-esque spokesperson placement attempt, except the Republican party is getting better at it.

Pocket Ninja: It wouldn't surprise me one tiny bit if this was another attempt at a Joe-the-Plumber-esque spokesperson placement attempt, except the Republican party is getting better at it.

No. It sounds like a guy from Ohio who is not part of the union.

The truth hurts so bad, you have to dismiss it as a Republican plot?

Stay in your denial.

FTFA:

I have six children, so I am not unfamiliar with the concept of wanting someone to bail you out of a mess you have gotten yourself into.

*snerk*

Read it, but he lost 60% of his credibility with the first "messiah." It also appears he's one of those folk who believe the union contracts were only the fault of the unions.

Pocket Ninja:
It wouldn't surprise me one tiny bit if this was another attempt at a Joe-the-Plumber-esque spokesperson placement attempt, except the Republican party is getting better at it.

I respectfully disagree. Having consulted for various auto supply and other industries, I do see the abuse of union labor. Not to mention the fact that practically every car that came from Detroit during the mid 70's, the entire 80's, and 90's were junk.

Our company used to use Ford Tauruses as fleet cars. The 1995 Taurus had the following problems: At 20,000 miles, the speedometer would break - cost to repair = $1000. At 75,000 miles, the heater core would crack and spew antifreeze into the cabin of the car - cost to repair = $600. We had 5 of the POSs and each of them broke at the same mileage. It was bad enough that I swore off fords forever and I now drive a Honda.

Let them go under and into bankruptcy. They have been earning it for over 35 years.

2wolves: but he lost 60% of his credibility with the first "messiah."

You mean whose plague is now sweeping the nation, awaiting our new "messiah" to wave his magical wand and make all our problems go away?

He's spot on.

Mr. Knox has beat the crap out of the head of the nail with his well crafted if poorly articulated hammer of indignation and blue collar righteousness. Clumsily crushing and reshaping the head of this proverbial nail with blow after frustrated blow of indignation and anger. (read this paragraph in the voice of The Tick)

Having worked with union electricians, drivers, and line workers I can indeed verify that they are busy daily reinforcing the negative stereotype given to American Unionized labor.

Unfortunately, because many of the talking points this guy has ejaculated onto his letter ARE Republican talking points it will be soundly ignored by anyone other than the wingnuts who will surely listen to it over and over again being read by Rush, Hannity, and Boortz.

If a bunch of nuts are microwaving babies and telling everyone how much fun it is, regardless of how right they may be, you still do not want to be associated with a bunch of nuts.

SouthernManDunWrong: Let them go under and into bankruptcy. They have been earning it for over 35 years.

I don't disagree. But to think that this is all the fault of unions is utter, pandering stupidity.

And regarding the letter, I mistrust anything that has the smack of populist media campaign to it, as this does. Maybe he is just a guy who just happened to write this letter and it happened, without any effort on his or a his organizer's part, that it became widespread. But I doubt it.

That last sentence about turning back to god... yeah, that made any good things he said previously completely worthless. Counting on a president to save you, though stupid in it's own right, is at least more rational than counting on a god to save you. One at least exists.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: Having worked with union electricians, drivers, and line workers any typical worker I can indeed verify that they are busy daily reinforcing the negative stereotype given to American Unionized labor. any lower level worker.

FTFY. I always find it amusing that people are so quick to denigrate union laborers in this country, when pretty much everybody I have ever known in any job field qualifies for that stereotype. Union members want to go home at 5 pm sharp to see the kids? Lazy. Bankers stereotyped for leaving at 3pm to play golf? Heroes. Wealth producers. Entrepreneurs.

The problem in this country isn't unions. The problem is that most American workers are too stupid to realize that they are being overworked, and have realized none of the gains for being the most productive nation on the planet. Guess what? Providing health care and mandatory time off for your workers isn't an abomination- it's a basic tenet of being human!

Rhetorically alluding to Obama as the "messiah" does not fit in either ideologically or logically with the primary argument of the letter. I am calling shenanigans. This is just another attempt to inject anti-Obama hysteria into the dialogue

.

SouthernManDunWrong: It was bad enough that I swore off fords forever and I now drive a Honda.

While I realize that the plural of anecdote is not data, my experience with Big 3 vehicles is best crystallized by a vehicle my parents purchased in 1998.

I thought I'd converted them to The Church of Saints Honda and Toyota, but they had been using a GM credit card and had something like $600 in rebates toward a GM vehicle. I told them that they'd end up paying more in the long run, but my mom didn't want to lose the rebates. They bought a 1999 Pontiac Grand Prix GT. It was the biggest piece of crap I've ever seen. The climate control and power windows died, conveniently just after the warranty expired. The fit and finish were almost comically bad for a vehicle at that price point. The V6 engine was loud and inefficient.

Needless to say, they're about as likely to buy an American car at this point as I am. They have a Toyota Camry and Honda Odyssey. Both built in the US, as are my wife's Toyota RAV4 and my Honda Accord.

Pocket Ninja: I don't disagree. But to think that this is all the fault of unions is utter, pandering stupidity.

Please note that he rightly spread the blame around.

I should add to this that the myth of the "self-correcting market" is another rhetorical brick in the wall of Free Market as Ideology. It is through the abject worship of Free Market in the abstract that we managed to label every person in favor of reasonable oversight of the markets a socialist or a communist lo these last three decades, thus setting the stage for the largest theft in world history.

It's just more wharrgarbl


.

Pocket Ninja: SouthernManDunWrong: Let them go under and into bankruptcy. They have been earning it for over 35 years.

I don't disagree. But to think that this is all the fault of unions is utter, pandering stupidity.

And regarding the letter, I mistrust anything that has the smack of populist media campaign to it, as this does..

The letter writer does not imply that it is solely the Unions efforts at failing that have caused the failure. He merely states it as a primary cause. The Companies, Congress, and the Unions share the blame equally in the case of US auto comapanies and Boston Market.

The comparison between the K-car and the Accord did it for me.
He also does a bit of George Bush bashing in there too.

I am thinking more along the lines of this is some guy who wants to be heard so he voiced his message in a manner that would be well communicated through populist talking points and that his message would translate well to various forms of continued media dissemination. Like talk radio. They are gonna eat this up.

It does not make him wrong though.

Of course, it could just be another nefarious GOP plot! The wicked wicked bastards..

Dancin_In_Anson: Please note that he rightly spread the blame around.

Yes, he did strike at least a couple of small non-union-related chimes in between the deafening crashes on the non-union gong which together comprise the beginning, middle, and end of the entire piece.

Pocket Ninja: the deafening crashes on the non-union gong which together comprise the beginning, middle, and end of the entire piece.

I sent the link to an oldtimer Farker that works for a supplier. She posted a rant a while back that echoed some of the things that he said when it came to the unions...I have asked her to either repost it or allow me to.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach:

I am thinking more along the lines of this is some guy who wants to be heard so he voiced his message in a manner that would be well communicated through populist talking points and that his message would translate well to various forms of continued media dissemination. Like talk radio. They are gonna eat this up.

This points to another problem--the tendency for talk radio and what passes for media these days to Rule by Slogan, which, as you know, worked real well for Mao. There is more to articulating a position or lodging a disagreement than repeating a bunch of tired old phrases you hear on AM radio two decades ago.

People think they can whomp up a bunch of righteous indignation based on slogans, completely unaware that what they are saying is a logical trainwreck. All you gotta do is wharrgarbl for a while--your premises do not need to add up to your conclusion

.

He's half right. The products haven't been competitive. But the anti-union fervor is idiocy because US assembly workers at Honda/Toyots, etc. make wages that are competitive with or in some cases more than union shops. I think the big difference is that the foreign manufacturers don't have a huge legacy workforce or retiree base that is also being pummeled by the second biggest group of thieves in this country after the banking industry, the health insurance industry.

Too bad our current crop of politicians don't have that man's common sense & ability to articulate his message.

Well..looks like people are going to get what they want, the death of GM. Maybe it will become part of the D.O.T.

Don't you just hate it when the truth comes out?

2wheeljunkie: I think the big difference is that the foreign manufacturers don't have a huge legacy workforce or retiree base that is also being pummeled by the second biggest group of thieves in this country after the banking industry, the health insurance industry.

This thievery is still underway through AIG and secret hundreds of Billions being funneled to European recipients. Bust open AIG and smoke out the rats so the world can have confidence again.

The only one of the Big three I am willing to back right now is Ford. I love the looks and performance of the Dodge Challenger SRT-8, but I can't bring myself to buy one right now. Ford deserves support due to its trying to fix things, with their own money and hard work.

GaryPDX: 2wheeljunkie: I think the big difference is that the foreign manufacturers don't have a huge legacy workforce or retiree base that is also being pummeled by the second biggest group of thieves in this country after the banking industry, the health insurance industry.

This thievery is still underway through AIG and secret hundreds of Billions being funneled to European recipients. Bust open AIG and smoke out the rats so the world can have confidence again.

Gary your making sense. Dammit when Trolls start making sense it is scary.

Pocket Ninja: I don't disagree. But to think that this is all the fault of unions is utter, pandering stupidity.

It's the fault of unions AND management. But mostly unions, sad to say.

A lot of American companies had to borrow money back in the 90's and early 2000s. Especially in airlines and low margin businesses that face foreign competition.

Now that we realize those were the "good times" it was virtually inevitable that these companies would face bankruptcy now. But the attitude of the unions is "give labor its share of the profits or else". the unions should have been on board with reducing labor costs to make these companies profitable, but instead they just took away money that should have gone to paying down debt.

After a while management says "fark it" and gives in because they figure if they can just muddle through the next loan payments the company will survive. But those were the good times. There is no muddling through now. Labor costs have crippled American industry.

Unions suck, there's one where I work and I don't belong to it. Unions are staffed by idiots that force management to accept their retarded view of the world. Unions are an obsolete concept, in their current form, in a global economy.

Wow... what a blathering idiot. I mean, he regurgitates some good points that he must have picked up from his intelligent friends/coworkers, but the mish-mash with which he glues it all together is simply staggering in its stupidity.

I hate "republican talking points" as much as anyone else, but this guy is no hack.

He is in the trenches and can see the incredibly inefficiencies of our domestic automakers. It's also no secret that the big 3 tend to treat their suppliers like shiat.

globalwarmingpraiser:
Gary your making sense. Dammit when Trolls start making sense it is scary.

You're a troll too.

DistendedPendulusFrenulum: This points to another problem--the tendency for talk radio and what passes for media these days to Rule by Slogan, which, as you know, worked real well for Mao.

You mean like "Hope and change"? I don't ever want to hear a liberal complain about conservative "bumpersticker politics" again.

Hmmm... this was posted on the intertubes... so it must be true....

Chummer45: It's also no secret that the big 3 tend to treat their suppliers anyone but their shareholders and owners like shiat.

FTFY on behalf of customers, dealerships, suppliers, employees.

sloppy shoes: Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach: Having worked with union electricians, drivers, and line workers any typical worker I can indeed verify that they are busy daily reinforcing the negative stereotype given to American Unionized labor. any lower level worker.

The problem in this country isn't unions. The problem is that most American workers are too stupid to realize that they are being overworked, and have realized none of the gains for being the most productive nation on the planet.

I agree with the parts I left up there,

The difference between a union worker and your typical low level employee is the fact that the union workers are getting paid much more for doing the same work and they are contractually protected from unexpected termination based upon performance. The UAW beyond many others has contracts designed so that the employees can game the system to their own great immediate benefit while causing great harm for the survival of the Company, the Union, and their other members and their employee has no recourse to correct the problem.

Regardless of all the good unions have done for labor in this country they have currently become so political and so motivated to their own existence that they have in fact worked against the best interest of the company and in turn their members. Many current labor unions would have in fact much different contracts in the later part of the twentieth century due to poor performance if not for the US governments intervention in the negotiation process.

The thing most anti-union folks do not seem to understand is that the problem is not the unions, unions can and have done great good, the problem is when the politicians begin legislative interference on behalf of or in favor of either the unions or the companies. It is when laws are passed to influence the negotiation process for politicla expediency that Union-Company relationships tend to become a detriment to both.

Also, the banker-worker comparison does not work . A banker works for himself or someone else like him and they are in a position to dictate their own hours. A low level non-union non-contract employee works for someone else and has his hours dictated to him by his employer. If he wants to go home early it is perfectly within the rights of the employer to let him go home early permanently.

happydude45: Too bad our current crop of politicians don't have that man's common sense & ability to articulate his message.

Yeah, because political discourse should be about whatever nebulous thought happens to wander through your vacuous pate at a given moment

.

fark.

I actually agree with the prick on MOST of what he said.

**watches my liberal bona fides fly out the window**fark.

This man called Obama the Messiah and then talked about God in the end, so I will now discount his entire message. Of course, I would have found some other random reason to discount his entire reason had he not done either of those things because his message doesn't match my world view. If I am not able to engage in cognitive dissonance then I lose my right as an American. My side is always right now matter how much sense the other side makes, and I'll find some irrelevant point in the other side's argument to discount the entire message.

I like threads like this one.

It is a wonderful opportunity to add to my "ignore user" list. ;)

sloppy shoes: globalwarmingpraiser:
Gary your making sense. Dammit when Trolls start making sense it is scary.

You're a troll too.

.....wait because I disagree with you I am a troll. I am sure there are several farkers on here that will disabuse you of this notion.

radioshack: DistendedPendulusFrenulum: This points to another problem--the tendency for talk radio and what passes for media these days to Rule by Slogan, which, as you know, worked real well for Mao.

You mean like "Hope and change"? I don't ever want to hear a liberal complain about conservative "bumpersticker politics" again.

Oh, blow me. Here we have Rush trying to run the Republican party using slogans that are twenty years old. We have pundits using the term "failed liberal policies" to refer to new policies, not even aware what the policies that tired old saw referred to a quarter century ago, probably because a quarter century ago these geniuses of political science were still walking around with a bag of piss strapped to their ass.

The economy fails because of our abject worship of supposed "free market" principles, and all your boys can do is screech "socialism," not even knowing what socialism is.

.

I'm suspicious, too. It seems just a little too well done, including the parts that don't seem so good. Colour me paranoid, and I'll certainly be glad to be wrong. But there's something that doesn't smell quite right.

Assuming it's entirely legitimate, it's regrettable that he goes for a couple worn-out right-wing whargarble points that detract from the apparent thesis. The use of "messiah" makes him sound like an unthinking dittohead, even if he's entirely right. And what does God have to do with any of it?

I also find it a little hard to believe that someone in this guy's position would really risk pissing off a major client in this way, even if he really believed all this. Many of us would love to tell off the people who butter our bread, but few of us are willing to give up our livelihood for that brief catharsis, however satisfying we might imagine it to be. And I think if I had six kids in a wobbling economy, I'd be even more strongly inclined to avoid risking my fiscal position.

I'm not calling bullshiat just yet, but I'm not quite ready to accept this without question.

Clarification: He's still a douche for the dig at the unions and the who big guy in the sky crap.

Contents of a Space Wasp's stomach

Interesting handle.

DistendedPendulusFrenulum: Yeah, because political discourse should be about whatever nebulous thought happens to wander through your vacuous pate at a given moment

Exactly! I so don't agree with this guy so I will point out that he clearly wrote this as a reactionary response and not thinking it out. That will then make me feel better that my rosy view of the political decisions being made.

globalwarmingpraiser: .....wait because I disagree with you I am a troll.

Dude...this is Fark. That's the way it is.

tonesskin: This man called Obama the Messiah and then talked about God in the end, so I will now discount his entire message. Of course, I would have found some other random reason to discount his entire reason had he not done either of those things because his message doesn't match my world view. If I am not able to engage in cognitive dissonance then I lose my right as an American. My side is always right now matter how much sense the other side makes, and I'll find some irrelevant point in the other side's argument to discount the entire message.

Actually, it seems that GM and Chrysler are looking to the government as a messiah to save them. In the context of this letter it is entirely appropriate. This isn't Gary or NyZOOman.

sloppy shoes: globalwarmingpraiser:
Gary your making sense. Dammit when Trolls start making sense it is scary.

You're a troll too.

You're defending 200 Billion funneled to Europe with an open door for hundreds of billions more...in SECRET? TARP and TARP II and TARP III and on and on and on until someone stops it?

mmmkay

tonesskin: This man called Obama the Messiah and then talked about God in the end, so I will now discount his entire message.

You jest, but I almost closed it at that paragraph. If the man had managed to stick to his talking points and quit going off on tangents, the quality of his letter would have been drastically improved. The entire thing reeks of "failure to proofread", which is a cardinal sin if you're sending to anyone with "President" in their title.

kurfu: I like threads like this one.

It is a wonderful opportunity to add to my "ignore user" list. ;)

Oh, yeah, that too. Any time someone disagrees with my world viewpoint I tend to put them on ignore. It is a more sophisticated way of sticking my fingers in my ear and saying, " I can't hear you!"

/your a idiot