Seems like this is going to turn into a very interesting situation..

So basically, Netanyahu is worried that he's going to lose his international moral and political cover in Israeli moderates if the government is obviously controlled by the right wing, so he wants Livni to provide him with at least a semblance of that cover so he can use it to push policies only the Israeli (and the American) right support while pretending to represent Israeli moderates?

Correct? incorrect?

Prospero424: Correct? incorrect?

That's how I'm reading it. Livni knows this, and she is trying to leverage her hand to the fullest extent. I like her.

Gaza was an atrocity. Remember placing white phosphorous on people? How fun was that?

Personally i hope Israel suffers for their crimes.

Prospero424: So basically, Netanyahu is worried that he's going to lose his international moral and political cover in Israeli moderates if the government is obviously controlled by the right wing, so he wants Livni to provide him with at least a semblance of that cover so he can use it to push policies only the Israeli (and the American) right support while pretending to represent Israeli moderates?

Correct? incorrect?

Not sure. I'm waiting on Tatsuma to show up and give me an idea which side I should be supporting.

Phil Moskowitz: Gaza was an atrocity. Remember placing white phosphorous on people? How fun was that?

Phil Moskowitz: Personally i hope Israel suffers for their crimes.

yes, but do you have anything relevant to this article...

Tenebreux: Prospero424: So basically, Netanyahu is worried that he's going to lose his international moral and political cover in Israeli moderates if the government is obviously controlled by the right wing, so he wants Livni to provide him with at least a semblance of that cover so he can use it to push policies only the Israeli (and the American) right support while pretending to represent Israeli moderates?

Correct? incorrect?

Not sure. I'm waiting on Tatsuma to show up and give me an idea which side I should be supporting.

this is pretty much what I was thinking. Wait for Tatsuma to show up and express his opinion, then feel the opposite of whatever he advocates.

Tenebreux: Not sure. I'm waiting on Tatsuma to show up and give me an idea which side I should be supporting.

Smacky the Frog: this is pretty much what I was thinking. Wait for Tatsuma to show up and express his opinion, then feel the opposite of whatever he advocates.

/Laughs and shakes head

Smacky the Frog: Phil Moskowitz: Gaza was an atrocity. Remember placing white phosphorous on people? How fun was that?

Phil Moskowitz: Personally i hope Israel suffers for their crimes.

yes, but do you have anything relevant to this article...

I'll try to be more on topic, honey.

Phil Moskowitz: Personally i hope Israel suffers for their crimes.

But only Israel, right? No other nation has ever committed atrocities, especially not in the middle east. Not trying to be Tatsuma here, but anyone who is stupid enough to try to cut down the Israel/Gaza/Palestine conflict to a single statement of "It's all Israels/Palestines fault." is too stupid to be allowed to pass on his or her genetic material.

Prospero424: /Laughs and shakes head

Tats has chosen to present himself as a sadly typical 'BOMB THEM TILL THEY LOVE US OR LEAVE US' hardliner. It's been his own choice. If he's lost all credibility by supporting actions including using WP, Cluster Bombs and heavy ordinance indiscriminately in densely populated areas, it's his own damn fault.

Bored Horde: Tats has chosen to present himself as a sadly typical 'BOMB THEM TILL THEY LOVE US OR LEAVE US' hardliner. It's been his own choice. If he's lost all credibility by supporting actions including using WP, Cluster Bombs and heavy ordinance indiscriminately in densely populated areas, it's his own damn fault.

Oh, I agree. I just think some people give him too much influence here, jokingly or not. Like Bevets.

But this isn't something I want to argue about.

Prospero424: Bored Horde: Tats has chosen to present himself as a sadly typical 'BOMB THEM TILL THEY LOVE US OR LEAVE US' hardliner. It's been his own choice. If he's lost all credibility by supporting actions including using WP, Cluster Bombs and heavy ordinance indiscriminately in densely populated areas, it's his own damn fault.

Oh, I agree. I just think some people give him too much influence here, jokingly or not. Like Bevets.

But this isn't something I want to argue about.

Tats is ubiquitous here on Fark for being the mouthpiece of the pro-Israel faction. Blind allegiance is just that - blind. So rather than follow the blind guy, I'll see which direction he wanders off in and then take a different road.

Smacky the Frog:this is pretty much what I was thinking. Wait for Tatsuma to show up and express his opinion, then feel the opposite of whatever he advocates.

Was that the guy who basically said Hamas's use of human shields absolved Israel of any blame for killing civillians? That guy was fun.

The real fear I have about this is that the rejection of agreement with the moderates will push Netanyahu into the arms of the right-wing loonies to make the necessary majority. This then gives them the power to twist his arm on all sorts of things regarding the Arab minority in Israel (some of them want to flat out throw them out), the Palestinian peace process (some of them want to flat out reconquer the area and drive the Palestinians into the sea), and so on and so forth.

It would certainly be a propaganda victory for Hamas, who then get to use the actual positions of actual members of the Israeli ruling coalition as a tool to further recruit from and radicalize the Palestinian people. I simply do not see this ending well.

I need Tatsuma to pls come in here and tell me how this is all ok.

sonnyboy11: I need Tatsuma to pls come in here and tell me how this is all ok.

Isn't it the shabbat?

Smacky the Frog: Tats is ubiquitous here on Fark for being the mouthpiece of the pro-Israel faction. Blind allegiance is just that - blind. So rather than follow the blind guy, I'll see which direction he wanders off in and then take a different road.

Okay, I'll rephrase: I think some here give him too much attention. I guess influence was the wrong word...

But really, this is all I have to say about that. Don't want to threadjack.

legion_of_doo: sonnyboy11: I need Tatsuma to pls come in here and tell me how this is all ok.

Isn't it the shabbat?

/swoon

Yea.... sigh... but he's so knowledgeable about all things Israel! He could never be wrong about what's best for Israel... could he?

legion_of_doo: Isn't it the shabbat?




Yum!

Did someone say Zippy?

Aaron Haynes: Was that the guy who basically said Hamas's use of human shields absolved Israel of any blame for killing civillians?

And that Jews are going extinct in the US despite an increase in population by both number and demographic percentage.

And that the Jewish temple was "sinned" into rubble.

And that the only acceptable form of Judaism is the sort that agrees with his fundamentalist leaning viewpoint.

And keeps parroting the "zOMG, Persians want newks/will have newks soon" line every time there's a thread about Iran.

He'd be a source of great amusement if he weren't taken seriously by so many as an 'expert' on Israel and/or Judaism as a whole.

Murkanen: Aaron Haynes: Was that the guy who basically said Hamas's use of human shields absolved Israel of any blame for killing civillians?

And that Jews are going extinct in the US despite an increase in population by both number and demographic percentage.

And that the Jewish temple was "sinned" into rubble.

And that the only acceptable form of Judaism is the sort that agrees with his fundamentalist leaning viewpoint.

And keeps parroting the "zOMG, Persians want newks/will have newks soon" line every time there's a thread about Iran.

He'd be a source of great amusement if he weren't taken seriously by so many as an 'expert' on Israel and/or Judaism as a whole.

I put him in the same class as Pat Buchanan: Informed, smart, well spoken (well, written I guess), willing to explain his position, and coming to a conclusion absolutely the opposite of mine on basically everything while viewing the same facts.

Prospero424: So basically, Netanyahu is worried that he's going to lose his international moral and political cover in Israeli moderates if the government is obviously controlled by the right wing, so he wants Livni to provide him with at least a semblance of that cover so he can use it to push policies only the Israeli (and the American) right support while pretending to represent Israeli moderates?

Correct? incorrect?

Yes, but there's more.

Netanyahu isn't dumb. He knows that sooner or later (probably sooner) he'll have to start some type of negotiations with the Palestinians. He knows he'll have to make some sort of concessions. If his government is based on purely right wing parties it will fall as soon as that happens. Having Labour or Kadima in his government will give it a lot more stability, and give him more leeway to do things that might piss off the right.

It also makes Shas less influential which makes it a lot easier to pass same budgets.

shpritz: It also makes Shas less influential which makes it a lot easier to pass same sane budgets.

shpritz: He knows that sooner or later (probably sooner) he'll have to start some type of negotiations with the Palestinians. He knows he'll have to make some sort of concessions. If his government is based on purely right wing parties it will fall as soon as that happens.

That is, unless he engages in serious log-rolling with the far-right. And that gets messy, as "you scratch my back I scratch yours" arrangements always do. Because it's basically promising them to later undo everything the negotiations might accomplish to keep the coalition from collapsing.

Drakkenmaw: Because it's basically promising them to later undo everything the negotiations might accomplish to keep the coalition from collapsing.

I doubt that would be good enough for them. It was the right wing parties that led to the collapse of his first government after the Wye accords. The only right wing party he will be able to count on when negotiations start is Lieberman's Israel Beytenu because they are in favor of giving back land and creating a Palestinian state.

Hard to figure out the solution. Tats really needs to give us some inside thinking.

However, it's hard to deny that the land for peace thing hasn't really worked. The Pal. Authority was given control of Gaza and the West Bank and they just used them as launching pads. The Pal. leadership doesn't want land or peace. They want the peace that comes after every Jew on the land is gone. In the interim, it hasn't mattered much whether the right or left is in control in Isreal. Political changes in Isreal haven't resulted in political changes on the Pal. side.

T-Boy: However, it's hard to deny that the land for peace thing hasn't really worked. The Pal. Authority was given control of Gaza and the West Bank and they just used them as launching pads. The Pal. leadership doesn't want land or peace. They want the peace that comes after every Jew on the land is gone. In the interim, it hasn't mattered much whether the right or left is in control in Isreal. Political changes in Isreal haven't resulted in political changes on the Pal. side.

'Land for peace', with real sovereignty, rather than semi-occupied puppet state, has never been offered by any government of Israel. Of course, removing the military occupied posts or even a shared Jerusalem is easy compared to getting 'settlers' out of the West Bank...the US government couldn't stop that kind of land grabbing by it's citizens, I'm not sure any democracy can.

Waiting for a Tatsuma "I have more knowledge of candidate name and climate in Israel, therefore you must listen to me without question" post.

Drakkenmaw: The real fear I have about this is that the rejection of agreement with the moderates will push Netanyahu into the arms of the right-wing loonies to make the necessary majority. This then gives them the power to twist his arm on all sorts of things regarding the Arab minority in Israel (some of them want to flat out throw them out), the Palestinian peace process (some of them want to flat out reconquer the area and drive the Palestinians into the sea), and so on and so forth.

It would certainly be a propaganda victory for Hamas, who then get to use the actual positions of actual members of the Israeli ruling coalition as a tool to further recruit from and radicalize the Palestinian people. I simply do not see this ending well.

Yep. I actually blame Livni on this - the people of Israel decided they wanted to Nazify the country, and she should have looked for a chance to join the government and try to forestall it the best she could. Instead, she's pretty much being completely blind to the political situation.

For the good of the country, the world, and the Palestinians, she needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Lusiphur
Not trying to be Tatsuma here, but anyone who is stupid enough to try to cut down the Israel/Gaza/Palestine conflict to a single statement of "It's all Israels/Palestines fault." is too stupid to be allowed to pass on his or her genetic material.

T-Boy
The Pal. leadership doesn't want land or peace.

this is what happens when you listen to leaders. When people see a flag they go all retarded. I wonder if the waving actually induces a hypnotic effect. Dividing humanity into nation-states creates the phenomenon of 'national ego', the feeling that personal fortune rises or falls with the fortune of the State.

Specialization puts people into 'roles'- a firefighter, a doctor, a politician. When you read each of those words you saw an image- a tough guy with a helmet and a red outfit; a person wearing a long white lab coat; a fat outspoken white man in a suit. These roles are much more in-depth than that, though, based entirely on stereotypes that are perpetuated by a media system that is streamlined by cheap content (such as stereotypes). Thus when a person votes for a politician, they vote for the person who best expemplifies the idea of 'politician', regardless of whether or not that person is the best candidate, or whether or not their ideas will create perpetual war and insecurity.

The same goes for everything in a Spectacular society. When those polls came out saying that 98% of Israelis supported Operation Cast Lead, what those people were thinking was, "How am I supposed to answer?". So what has happened in most Western countries is that irrational nationalism has become synonymous with politicans, and people vote for the most irrationally nationalistic politician because that is the stereotype that best exemplifies the idea of what a politician is 'supposed' to be.

This situation is perpetuated by Israel's media, military, and political leaders, because individuals that are empowered by a given system want to keep that system. Therefore, the enemies of the Israeli people are not in Gaza or Ramallah, but in West Jerusalem. But the Israeli people are so totally fooled by that country's Spectacle that I doubt they'll figure it out on their own.

this wasn't exactly what I wanted to say but I think the point is there

RanDomino: Wow... thanks for reminding me why I read Fark threads.

I clicked for non-kosher Tzipi Livni pictures, leave disappointed. Fark you.

"oh woe" in English subby.

Lusiphur: Phil Moskowitz: Personally i hope Israel suffers for their crimes.

But only Israel, right? No other nation has ever committed atrocities, especially not in the middle east. Not trying to be Tatsuma here, but anyone who is stupid enough to try to cut down the Israel/Gaza/Palestine conflict to a single statement of "It's all Israels/Palestines fault." is too stupid to be allowed to pass on his or her genetic material.

Shouldn't get away with it != solely responsible.

Both have their lists of farkups, and each new farkup just makes any kind of reconciliation between the two more and more impossible.

Does Israel have a right to exist? Damn right it does. Does this mean Israelis have a free pass to do what ever the hell they want? Nope.

You can replace Israel with "Palestinian nation" in the above sentence and it's still equally valid.

They're actually very similar - rocket attacks strengthen the resolve of Israelis and military attachs strengthen the resolve of Palestinians. Seems pretty dumb for both sides to keep pursuing the same course of action.

I read that headline quick as "Benjamin Netanyahu cold-cocked by Kadima leader Tzipi Livni. Oy vey" and was hoping that a BBC photographer got a shot of her mid-swing.

/Oh well.

Prospero424: So basically, Netanyahu is worried that he's going to lose his international moral and political cover in Israeli moderates if the government is obviously controlled by the right wing, so he wants Livni to provide him with at least a semblance of that cover so he can use it to push policies only the Israeli (and the American) right support while pretending to represent Israeli moderates?

Correct? incorrect?

That's pretty much right on the money, I think.

Alex Sanders: I read that headline quick as "Benjamin Netanyahu cold-cocked by Kadima leader Tzipi Livni. Oy vey" and was hoping that a BBC photographer got a shot of her mid-swing.

/Oh well.

I read it as "Benjamin Netanyahu cock-punched by Kadima leader Tzipi Livni."

Phil Moskowitz: Gaza was an atrocity. Remember placing white phosphorous on people? How fun was that?

Remember Hamas hiding in and behind hospitals and schools (women and children) ???

How fun was THAT? You douchebag terrorist apologist.

Royal Vodak: Remember Hamas hiding in and behind hospitals and schools (women and children) ???

1. The IDF uses Palistinians as human shields as well.

2. Hamas using human shields, assuming that they actually were human shields in the above mentioned scenario (yes it is possible, but it still wouldn't account for every civilian death), it is still Israel who is ultimately responsible for the deaths of all involved because their military is dropping the bombs/firing the weapons.

Prospero424: So basically, Netanyahu is worried that he's going to lose his international moral and political cover in Israeli moderates if the government is obviously controlled by the right wing, so he wants Livni to provide him with at least a semblance of that cover so he can use it to push policies only the Israeli (and the American) right support while pretending to represent Israeli moderates?

Correct? incorrect?

I suspect this is nothing but endgame negotiation posturing. Everyone knows that the final government will include a coalition between Kadima and Likud, with Yisrael Beiteinu (more likely) and/or Labor (less likely) thrown in. Netanyahu has the "nuclear option" of forming a government with ultra-zionists and religious kooks without including Kadima, and Livni's playing chicken with him to see how many concessions he'll give her before he uses it.

Re: Yisrael Beiteinu, it's common to call them an "ultra-nationalist" party, but it misrepresents where they stand. Bascially YB doesn't want Arabs to be citizens--or at least too many Arabs with too divided of loyalties. But YB so willing to keep Arabs from being citizens that they're willing to make geographical concessions of areas heavily populated by Arabs to their neighbors. This includes a two-state solution in Israel/Palestinian relations. They're also a secular, non-socialist party as far as domestic policy. Having them as a coalition partner in the government wouldn't be the end of the world.