Not a surprise. Banal to the point to hardly being worth mentioning.

I don't see why you call them "free market" lobbyists. By definition, neither lobbyists nor their clients are interested in a free market.

notmtwain: I don't see why you call them "free market" lobbyists. By definition, neither lobbyists nor their clients are interested in a free market.

Hence the quotes around free market. Hell, Henry David Thoreau and Ayn Rand would kick the shiat out of most "free market" fundamentalists for their dependence on public property.

notmtwain: I don't see why you call them "free market" lobbyists. By definition, neither lobbyists nor their clients are interested in a free market.

Most folks who tout the idea of a "free market" are proponents of shutting off the markets for anyone but themselves. It would be nice to see folks lobbying for fair and open markets, but that would introduce too much pesky competition and drive their profits down...

Ah, free marketers - the social darwinists of the 21st century.

DamnYankees: Ah, free marketers - the social darwinists of the 21st century.

The idea of free markets as entirely laissez faire rough and tumble isn't even what most of these folks are looking for even. They're looking for entirely skewed and captive markets, and backed up by a captive Fed as well.

None of them are looking at the kind of markets that exist in Singapore, Hong Kong, or even New Zealand or Canada--because while relatively free, they do carry some serious baggage in competition. And competition is NOT what most "free marketeers" are looking for.

They are happy enough to have regulation, so long as that regulation protects their interests, and can be used to stifle competitors. Most of the regulation that has been written in the last 16 years has been to enumerate, define, and limit damages and responsibilities. It's not an interest in freedom, but controlling their market.

A push towards actual free and fair markets would scare the bejeebus out of most of folks who tout the idea--because it would mean introducing real competition, as well as exposure to the risk of being held accountable to the public and their employees.

National interests before corporate interests? What a country!

But seriously, lobbyists are a huge reason why we can't have nice things. Like affordable healthcare, port security, and modern electrical grids.

Hey, I say let them have a seat at the table....

The Aerospace Industries Association of America has spent $2 million so far on an ad campaign urging that defense spending shouldn't be slashed to offset shortfalls in other areas.

....but must leave their pocketbooks at home.

Input, good. Influence peddling through $$$, bad.

Teat, god damn it.

If I know one thing, it's teats.

Hot Carl To Go: Teat, god damn it.

If I know one thing, it's teats.

I came here to point out this fact.

/Carry on.

Nobody's going to even comment on the missing preposition?

Code_Archeologist: Ayn Rand would kick the shiat out of most "free market" fundamentalists for their dependence on public property.

Then write about the experience as a sex scene.

He ought to give 'em a few hard smacks across the face with said teat, take their wallets and leaving sobbing on the floor like the $2 whores they are...

notmtwain: I don't see why you call them "free market" lobbyists. By definition, neither lobbyists nor their clients are interested in a free market.

This. If they're in the government, they're nothing to do with free markets.

The lobbyists are in their last throes.

Lobbyists aren't all bad. Everyone deserves a voice.

/former lobbyist.

jesdynf: Nobody's going to even comment on the missing preposition?

You mean the lobbyists aren't lining up a bunch of whimpers?

Is a teet one half of a teeter-totter? Or is it like the upswing of the teeter-totter, and the downswing is the tot?

Honestly, there is SO damn much money in Healthcare ... I can't see it ever being about the patient again. We have the most expensive system in the world .... yet our outcomes are terrible.

/American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

jesdynf: Nobody's going to even comment on the missing preposition?

Mammary glands of any sort always take precedence over grammar. I just flew my congressman out to Vail for a weekend to make sure he pushes this agenda properly.

Call it special interest, call it lobbying, call it what you will. . .


If Obama can break government of supporting private interest over the public good -- even moderately, it will be a tremendous victory for America.

If he fails. I'm not sure much else matters.

Why is it assumed that someone who is pro-industry is pro-free market? Most pro-industry people WANT the Government to interject on their behalf at the expense of someone else. Pro-free market folks do not.

Health Care, Agribusiness, Mining and Defense Groups Raise War Chests to Sway Legislators and the Public

Sorry. Your days of raping us and our national treasure to feed your insatiable, gluttonous maws are over.

bacccc: /American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

My co-worker just got a notice from a collection agency stating that she did not pay her copay, and now it's on her credit report. Armed with her canceled check for the co-pay, and a head full of steam, she started calling around.

Eventually she got to hospital billing, who said "Oh, yes. We see that you paid this bill on the date of service, but we're really far behind on updating our records."

So now she has to get this spot off of her credit report, because the hospital didn't have time to note that she'd paid her bill, but they were real quick to report her to a collections agency.

bacccc: Honestly, there is SO damn much money in Healthcare ... I can't see it ever being about the patient again. We have the most expensive system in the world .... yet our outcomes are terrible.

/American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

This study would disagree. If you take out stupidity and homocide. then the US stacks up well.

Link (new window)

what_now: bacccc: /American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

My co-worker just got a notice from a collection agency stating that she did not pay her copay, and now it's on her credit report. Armed with her canceled check for the co-pay, and a head full of steam, she started calling around.

Eventually she got to hospital billing, who said "Oh, yes. We see that you paid this bill on the date of service, but we're really far behind on updating our records."

So now she has to get this spot off of her credit report, because the hospital didn't have time to note that she'd paid her bill, but they were real quick to report her to a collections agency.

Billing /= Quality of Care Provided.

someonelse: jesdynf: Nobody's going to even comment on the missing preposition?

You mean the lobbyists aren't lining up a bunch of whimpers?

Is a teet one half of a teeter-totter? Or is it like the upswing of the teeter-totter, and the downswing is the tot?

And a Helter Skelter is a playground slide. Who knew?

Well if corporations are legally "people" [something I see as one of the gravest mistakes of our time] There must be Rules and Laws to govern their actions like everyone else.

globalwarmingpraiser: Billing /= Quality of Care Provided.

True. But when you're recovering from something serious, it doesn't help to worry about bills that you have already paid.

what_now: globalwarmingpraiser: Billing /= Quality of Care Provided.

True. But when you're recovering from something serious, it doesn't help to worry about bills that you have already paid.

The Level Of Care(LOC) given by none MD/DO in the US is higher than anywhere in the world. Our medics do things in the street that in the UK it requires an MD for. I know this from experience dealing with a UK Dr. over level of care on a job I was on.

vernonFL: Lobbyists aren't all bad. Everyone deserves a voice.

/former lobbyist.

BURN THE WITCH

globalwarmingpraiser: This study would disagree. If you take out stupidity and homocide. then the US stacks up well.

Based on this study: http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/0/5/9/4/5/p59458_ind ex.html

Healthcare is the leading cause of bankruptcy in the US. That might have changed with the mortgage crisis.

Any time healthcare comes up though, Americans tend to say, "well yours might be cheaper, but you don't have access to the new or experimental procedures, so ours is better". There's one simple question I ask, after having lived in the US, so knowing what it's like... how many people do you know who had something major happen that didn't have to fight tooth and nail with their insurance company for just basic coverage, nevermind new or experimental procedures. Having experienced both the US and Canadian systems, and having friends with major health issues in both countries, the American system sucks ass. Having to worry about not only your health, but fighting your insurance provider just so you can actually get the coverage you'd been paying for is a crappy system.

globalwarmingpraiser: bacccc: Honestly, there is SO damn much money in Healthcare ... I can't see it ever being about the patient again. We have the most expensive system in the world .... yet our outcomes are terrible.

/American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

This study would disagree. If you take out stupidity and homocide. then the US stacks up well.

Yeah, ya know... and only two things kept me out of the NBA: height and talent.

Besides the fact that life expectancy is pretty far from the only metric for "decent healthcare", you can make an argument for any position if you want to argue hypothetical exclusions of data.

I could be banging Megan Fox right now if I were younger, cuter and more wealthy.

globalwarmingpraiser: bacccc: Honestly, there is SO damn much money in Healthcare ... I can't see it ever being about the patient again. We have the most expensive system in the world .... yet our outcomes are terrible.

/American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

This study would disagree. If you take out stupidity and homocide. then the US stacks up well.

Link (new window)

You're point is true. American healthcare exceeds or is on par with the western world.

It's also the most expensive. But most importantly, it's not a system. However often it's referred to as a system.

It's not systematic. And as such, it has inefficiencies that are endemic to disorderly conglomerations.

Consider sanitation collection. A pipe goes to your house and one goes to bill gates house. You both pay for the same service -- as such it's cheap and effective. It's systematic.

Today, health care in the U.S. is more like an open cesspool, where the rich folks live on the top floor -- as that's the best place to be when everyone throws out their chamberpot.

It's a stinking messy unsystematic solution that still gets rid of the waste, albeit inefficiently and expensively.

Many costs could brought down for all by a reworking health care to be systemic.

1 person 1 vote.

Behead the lobbyists.

maniacbastard: 1 person 1 vote.


You don't like a floating exchange rate between 1 vote and x amount of dollars?

jesdynf: Nobody's going to even comment on the missing preposition?

I only care if they're at the end of a sentence or not.

You had near thirty years to prove you were responsible enough to regulate yourselves, you blew it, cry me a river.

bacccc: Honestly, there is SO damn much money in Healthcare ... I can't see it ever being about the patient again. We have the most expensive system in the world .... yet our outcomes are terrible.

/American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

The healthcare itself is top-notch, actually. We're one of the number one producers of new medical devices, science and techniques in the world and have been for a while now.

The associated financial system, though, sure. It's gotten too messy for roughly the same reason the real estate to capital investment system has screwed up -- too many middlemen with too little actual dependence on product quality. Except it's probably worse, because we can't really let medical services crash like we can most other industries (yes, even lending. it'll bounce back soon enough). It just seems like there's only a certain amount of middle management any system can take before it starts grinding to a halt.

//I'm fully in support of instituting something similar to the proposed controls on lending in the Health-care industry.

mmm... pancake: Why is it assumed that someone who is pro-industry is pro-free market? Most pro-industry people WANT the Government to interject on their behalf at the expense of someone else. Pro-free market folks do not.

There are no free-market adherents that actually run businesses.

malorkis: And a Helter Skelter is a playground slide. Who knew?

I did.

/I've got blisters on my fingers!

globalwarmingpraiser: bacccc: Honestly, there is SO damn much money in Healthcare ... I can't see it ever being about the patient again. We have the most expensive system in the world .... yet our outcomes are terrible.

/American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

This study would disagree. If you take out stupidity and homocide. then the US stacks up well.

Link (new window)

From your link: "Maybe these differences have lessons for traffic laws and gun control, but they teach us nothing about our system of health care."

Do shooting victims or people who get in traffic accidents always die instantly? Don't some of them make it to a hospital at some point, and thus will live or die depending on how good our health
care system is?

/Dr: Sorry, ma'am. You're son was shot, and no health care system in the world can handle bullets.

I dunno about y'all, but I see a lot of videos with 3rd world folks that have some horrible disease or dis-figuration, and they always "Go to America, where top doctors can help".

Pricey, but damned good. That pretty much defines the United States.

RockyMtnMan: I dunno about y'all, but I see a lot of videos with 3rd world folks that have some horrible disease or dis-figuration, and they always "Go to America, where top doctors can help".

Pricey, but damned good. That pretty much defines the United States.

Yeah, I saw a guy at the bus stop the other day, and I said, "Dude, why don't you just buy yourself a limosine? It's the best way to get around."

HighOnCraic: globalwarmingpraiser: bacccc: Honestly, there is SO damn much money in Healthcare ... I can't see it ever being about the patient again. We have the most expensive system in the world .... yet our outcomes are terrible.

/American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

This study would disagree. If you take out stupidity and homocide. then the US stacks up well.

Link (new window)

From your link: "Maybe these differences have lessons for traffic laws and gun control, but they teach us nothing about our system of health care."

Do shooting victims or people who get in traffic accidents always die instantly? Don't some of them make it to a hospital at some point, and thus will live or die depending on how good our health
care system is?

/Dr: Sorry, ma'am. You're son was shot, and no health care system in the world can handle bullets.

Trauma is one of the most chaotic things to try and treat. There is no magic cure. Trust and emergent medical provider and they will tell you, serious trauma is a crap shoot.

globalwarmingpraiser: HighOnCraic: globalwarmingpraiser: bacccc: Honestly, there is SO damn much money in Healthcare ... I can't see it ever being about the patient again. We have the most expensive system in the world .... yet our outcomes are terrible.

/American "healthcare" = joke of the world
//duh

This study would disagree. If you take out stupidity and homocide. then the US stacks up well.

Link (new window)

From your link: "Maybe these differences have lessons for traffic laws and gun control, but they teach us nothing about our system of health care."

Do shooting victims or people who get in traffic accidents always die instantly? Don't some of them make it to a hospital at some point, and thus will live or die depending on how good our health
care system is?

/Dr: Sorry, ma'am. You're son was shot, and no health care system in the world can handle bullets.

Trauma is one of the most chaotic things to try and treat. There is no magic cure. Trust and emergent medical provider and they will tell you, serious trauma is a crap shoot.

Right, but it's not like you can just say "trauma is hard, so it shouldn't be used at all when considering the quality of health care." And very often people who suffer trauma survive the emergency room and end up getting long term care, so again, those people should be counted when measuring the effectiveness of our health care system. Sure, serious trauma is difficult, but it's not impossible. There's no magic cure for cancer; should we ignore how our system deals with cancer patients?

DamnYankees: Ah, free marketers - the social darwinists of the 21st century.

I missed something about "free marketers" wanting to pay off politicians to get slush funds in my dictionary. Is I not learning?

Came here for the remarks about the term "free market", leaving happy.

"Free marketers," my ass. There's no such thing. Every capitalist is an authoritarian, it's just a matter of who should be the tyrant. "Libertarians" attack unions and want the government to intercede against organized labor. "Objectivists" think of themselves as the final authority and declare anyone who can take enough money/power to be a proper authority.

Capitalism is all about manipulation of power; a "free market" is no more free than anarchy. None of this should surprise anyone.

So capitalists are supporting anarchists? Sweet.....
No rules?
Ah, only the rules that make you rich and keeps your head connected to your body...

vernonFL: Lobbyists aren't all bad. Everyone deserves a voice.

/former lobbyist.

Fine. Let the special interests speak for themselves. If they have to hire someone to tell them what to say, or even to speak for them, they're not worth listening to.

notmtwain: I don't see why you call them "free market" lobbyists. By definition, neither lobbyists nor their clients are interested in a free market.

Uh. . . yes, they can be. Lobbying for less regulation. If a freer market is more advantageous to one group (and it clearly is in some cases) then lobbying for it is perfectly reasonable. A free market cannot be a perfect meritocracy, and even that would favor someone.

/Saw the author of Outliers do an interview on PBS last night, fascinating stuff about the random nature of success and how almost all systems based on merit fail horribly.

if we could just Free the Market completely, then this Country would finally finish itself off.

crony capitalists always end up feeding on each other. let them feed!