About damned time.

Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?

That's change we can bereave in.

/stolen from my failed submission

OldScotch: About damned time.

Stole my exact words.

I wasn't aware America had forgot how to honor the war dead. Maybe submitter should talk to the kid from the Old Guard I met over the weekend. They are well aware of how to honor their soldiers, with or without flashbulbs going off.

Not a good idea. We honor the dead, we dont need pictures of C-30s packed with them. What's next flashing pictures of them lying in the desert on tv?

How many days has he been President so far? About 40? Well... I can say this much. No President, that I have seen take office, has managed to keep my respect this long. Bravo President Obama. Bravo! :D

It's so nice to have a President with real American values and not some flunky oil man pretending to give a shiat about anything other than oil.

lunchinlewis: I wasn't aware America had forgot how to honor the war dead. Maybe submitter should talk to the kid from the Old Guard I met over the weekend. They are well aware of how to honor their soldiers, with or without flashbulbs going off.

Veterans and military families will never forget how to honor war dead. But that no longer describes the vast majority of American citizens, who will continue to allow our military to be treated like dirt because they have a little magnet on the SUV.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Not a good idea. We honor the dead, we dont need pictures of C-30s packed with them. What's next flashing pictures of them lying in the desert on tv?

What's wrong with that? Assuming the family permits it.

I never agreed to the Bush II administration's enforcement of a rule that the Bush I administration made.

You shield the public from that part of war - you know the actual Americans who gave their lives part - and there will be a disconnect from whatever war we happen to be fighting and the American people as a whole. If you agree or not about what it is we are doing in Iraq or Afghanistan - I think we all owe it to them to at least recognize their ultimate sacrifice for us.

Watch "Taking Chance" if you dont think the war dead are unhonored if some newspaper doesn't have a picture of the coffin.

This is not going to do a lot. Why? Because we are more efficient now at keeping people alive on the battle field. If you want to make an impact, show the VA hospitals, where the survivors are packed into. Minus legs and arms and hands and eyes and the like. Today the battlefield survival rate is close to 90%, but it is not an easy recovery. My father is a Vietnam vet and he is at a VA hospital for issues related to his service, and I see the vets when I visit him. The dead are sad, and should be shown, but the true cost of these wars will be the crippled survivors, who gave everything but their lives for this country.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Watch "Taking Chance" if you dont think the war dead are unhonored if some newspaper doesn't have a picture of the coffin.

It's not a question of honor. It's a question of being honest in our understanding of the costs of war. It's much easier to see "4000 dead" in text and not blink twice.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Watch "Taking Chance" if you dont think the war dead are unhonored if some newspaper doesn't have a picture of the coffin.

We Tivo'd this, but so far the BF hasn't been able to watch it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's an issue of honoring them. But I do agree with this.

Part of Bush's problem with Iraq, at least, is that he tried to keep the country insulated from it (bear with me, I'm trying to be as gracious as possible to make my point).

We were told to be in a perpetual state of readiness cause the next attack could happen at any time. And yet the wars were largely an unreality to us - or at least to those with no family in or connections to the military. It was something happening far away, and we were told at home to go shopping. And we used private contractors to supplement our forces. The financial cost of the war was largely off the books since it was out of the budget. And the human cost was intangible, party for reasons like this ban.

Personally I think it was a big mistake on Bush's part to not engage the country more. To make us feel that we had a personal stake in Iraq. That we owned part of it - good or bad.

During World Wars I & II, the average citizen was much more engaged. And they didn't need saturation coverage in the media to maintain that engagement. They volunteered, they grew victory gardens, they conserved resources, and they transformed industries to support the war.

We went to the GAP.

internutthead: I think we all owe it to them to at least recognize their ultimate sacrifice for us.

I agree completely. But more than just recognizing their sacrifice, attempts at sweeping their sacrifice under the rug and out of view certainly wasn't the right thing to do. Bush knew that too, he just didn't care about doing the right thing. For him they were a glaring example of what he had to know (that sending those soldiers to fight and die in the war he started was wrong). He didn't want everyone to see it for themselves... shame is a mutherfarker, no?

DamnYankees: What's wrong with that? Assuming the family permits it.

They can do whatever they like once their love one is returned to them. But access to the base and pictures like that should be tightly controlled. Names and numbers are released to the public (I think that's a bad idea too) so we know who and how many are being killed. We fight wars with more than just bullets. Images like this don't help.

Here in Wisconsin, there are big hububs for when soldiers are leaving and when they come home whether or not they're in a box or not. I believe, in general, the population here really has a lot of pride for the soldiers and honor them in any way possible.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: They can do whatever they like once their love one is returned to them. But access to the base and pictures like that should be tightly controlled. Names and numbers are released to the public (I think that's a bad idea too) so we know who and how many are being killed. We fight wars with more than just bullets. Images like this don't help.

They don't help what? How does a picture of a dead body or a casket hurt? This is not an argument - I don't even know what to respond to in your comment. That was nothing but an emotional assertion.

big_pth: If you want to make an impact, show the VA hospitals, where the survivors are packed into

My company does some work up at Walter Reed here in DC. It's quite a sight to see a kid being pushed in a wheelchair by his mom, while his teenage girlfriend walks along side carrying his prosthetic leg.

jonasborg: Here in Wisconsin, there are big hububs for when soldiers are leaving and when they come home whether or not they're in a box or not. I believe, in general, the population here really has a lot of pride for the soldiers and honor them in any way possible.

The problem has never been the local farewells and receptions... that was something that was strictly at the federal level, and more specifically, in the executive branch.

DamnYankees: It's not a question of honor. It's a question of being honest in our understanding of the costs of war. It's much easier to see "4000 dead" in text and not blink twice.

You're one messed up little monkey. Do you really need to see the pictures to know that 10 people died, or 100, or 1000? How are they more honored by taking their coffin's picture? If you want to honor the troops do it when they are alive. Let them and theirs take care of them when they die.

what_now: We Tivo'd this, but so far the BF hasn't been able to watch it.

Watch it. Then get back to me if you think taking the coffin's picture even touches what they do for them. They do that for every fallen Marine.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Do you really need to see the pictures to know that 10 people died, or 100, or 1000?

Have you ever seen a dead body? I mean the kind that died an unnatural, violent death? I sadly have. It changes your view of things. Sort of like how watching video of Nazi's shoveling dead bodies is MUCH more impactful than simply reading the statistics of the concentration camps.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: How are they more honored by taking their coffin's picture? If you want to honor the troops do it when they are alive. Let them and theirs take care of them when they die.

It's not an issue of honor. I didn't write this headline. Although I will say we should honor the wishes of the families and release the photos if they want to.

lunchinlewis:
My company does some work up at Walter Reed here in DC. It's quite a sight to see a kid being pushed in a wheelchair by his mom, while his teenage girlfriend walks along side carrying his prosthetic leg.

That makes me sick to my stomach to imagine. I can only pray that Obama treats the vets better than Dubya did. The stuff with Walter Reed from last year was a slap to the face of every service man or woman. They deserve better, and as long as we are sending them to fight and die or be crippled for life, we should be giving it to them.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: DamnYankees: It's not a question of honor. It's a question of being honest in our understanding of the costs of war. It's much easier to see "4000 dead" in text and not blink twice.

You're one messed up little monkey. Do you really need to see the pictures to know that 10 people died, or 100, or 1000? How are they more honored by taking their coffin's picture? If you want to honor the troops do it when they are alive. Let them and theirs take care of them when they die.

what_now: We Tivo'd this, but so far the BF hasn't been able to watch it.

Watch it. Then get back to me if you think taking the coffin's picture even touches what they do for them. They do that for every fallen Marine.

How does any of what you said justify hiding it? Because a plane of dead soldiers is a bad political image?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Images like this don't help.

They do because we are visual creatures. There's truth in the saying "A picture is worth a thousand words."

Some of our nation's most iconic moments are memorialized in photos. The sailor kissing the nurse in Times Square on VJ Day. The napalmed Vietnamese girl. The dogs attacking the freedom marchers in Birmingham.

As has been said, it's easy to gloss over an article that says "4 soldiers killed in Iraq", especially when the article next to it says "5 killed in motor vehicle accident". But to see the image of a C-141 at Dover AFB, with an honor guard receiving flag draped caskets, that is something that will stay with people, and help to remind us, whether we agree or not, that we sent and continue to send our nation's young men and women into harm's way.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: What's next flashing pictures of them lying in the desert on tv?

And this would be a much better way to honor the dead. Honor is not just a proper funeral. Honor is accepting how someone died, and the causes that led to it. IN this country we seek to ignore war, because it hurts. But that is the cost of war- sweat falling, eyes closed, heart-wrenching pain.

coyote71: Some of our nation's most iconic moments are memorialized in photos. The sailor kissing the nurse in Times Square on VJ Day. The napalmed Vietnamese girl. The dogs attacking the freedom marchers in Birmingham.

Very well said. One of the most moving images of American history for me is the one of a soldier in Vietnam (I think) returning home on an tarmac, and you see his wife running towards him crying? Anyone know which one I mean? I can't seem to find the photo.

DamnYankees: They don't help what? How does a picture of a dead body or a casket hurt? This is not an argument - I don't even know what to respond to in your comment. That was nothing but an emotional assertion.

Well I am taking about emotion here. A single picture without and history or context of a bunch of coffins? Who does that help? Does it help the families heal? Does it honor the dead?. All it does is say "hey look a bunch of dead soldiers". It's just a PR tool for those that want to undermine what the soldier died for or just as bad a way to sell a few more newspapers. If this really is about honor talk about their lives and how they died.

I don't understand how showing the coffins all of a sudden means honoring the war dead.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: All it does is say "hey look a bunch of dead soldiers". It's just a PR tool for those that want to undermine what the soldier died for or just as bad a way to sell a few more newspapers. If this really is about honor talk about their lives and how they died.

I honestly can't believe anyone thinks this. Are you serious? This is like a German saying Holocaust photos are merely anti-German propoganda meant to raise hatred of Germans.

What?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Watch it. Then get back to me if you think taking the coffin's picture even touches what they do for them. They do that for every fallen Marine.

I'm aware of what they do for fallen Marines- the boyfriend has participated in this. Which is why he's not yet ready to watch it.

My point is, people in this country need to have their faces rubbed in what they've done.

It would be nice if everyone went to Arlington for a day, but half of them would be like the teenager we saw texting during the changing of the guard at the tomb of the unknown soldier.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: It's just a PR tool for those that want to undermine what the soldier died for or just as bad a way to sell a few more newspapers



Yes. These people are all just attention whores who wish to undermine what the troops died for in Afghanistan. All they care about is getting more newspapers sold.

/sarcasm

The Stealth Hippopotamus: DamnYankees: They don't help what? How does a picture of a dead body or a casket hurt? This is not an argument - I don't even know what to respond to in your comment. That was nothing but an emotional assertion.

Well I am taking about emotion here. A single picture without and history or context of a bunch of coffins? Who does that help? Does it help the families heal? Does it honor the dead?. All it does is say "hey look a bunch of dead soldiers". It's just a PR tool for those that want to undermine what the soldier died for or just as bad a way to sell a few more newspapers. If this really is about honor talk about their lives and how they died.

You know what? While I believe this is a bunch of horsepies, I am going to humour you and say, even if that was true, the ban is worse. It is a PR tool to hide the cost of the war, even just in an emotional way. That, to me, is far worse.

what_now:

But that no longer describes the vast majority of American citizens, who will continue to allow our military to be treated like dirt because they have a little magnet on the SUV.

The "little magnet" on my Mom's car was part of a fund raising drive for my cousins unit to send them care packages.

DamnYankees:
I honestly can't believe anyone thinks this. Are you serious? This is like a German saying Holocaust photos are merely anti-German propoganda meant to raise hatred of Germans.

You're hardly a Yankee if you don't support our troops, Mister Damn!

The Stealth Hippopotamus: It's just a PR tool for those that want to undermine what the soldier died for or just as bad a way to sell a few more newspapers. If this really is about honor talk about their lives and how they died.

And suppressing those photos is a PR tool for those who don't want the nation to think about where their fathers and mothers, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters are going.

Hang On Voltaire: I don't understand how showing the coffins all of a sudden means honoring the war dead.

It doesn't. This is about getting in people's faces, indirectly and from the safety of your keyboard, by exploiting anonymous dead soldiers.

Bill_Wick's_Friend: i10.photobucket.com

I always get a kick out of that picture. Canadian flag, Canadian flag, Canadian flag, Canadian flag, No trucks sign, Canadian flag, Canadian flag.

Truly, photos are merely propoganda:



Of course they don't help us understand the horror of war.

lunchinlewis: It doesn't. This is about getting in people's faces, indirectly and from the safety of your keyboard, by exploiting anonymous dead soldiers.

I have no desire for these soldiers to be anonymous. We should know their names, their family - we should know they are people just like you and me.

coyote71:

And suppressing those photos is a PR tool for those who don't want the nation to think about where their fathers and mothers, sons and daughters, brothers and sisters are going.

I don't think it is a PR tool either way and I understand both sides of the argument but to say that not showing the coffins somehow translates to not knowing that servicemen are dying in war is ludicrous. In my area we have had several men die over there and I can remember their faces because of the local coverage of their funerals.

Hang On Voltaire: I don't understand how showing the coffins all of a sudden means honoring the war dead.

It could be argues that NOT showing them would insulate the public from what is actually going on, thus making the soldier's heroic sacrifice for their freedom seem less meaningful.

DamnYankees: Have you ever seen a dead body? I mean the kind that died an unnatural, violent death? I sadly have. It changes your view of things. Sort of like how watching video of Nazi's shoveling dead bodies is MUCH more impactful than simply reading the statistics of the concentration camps.

I have. It happened before my eyes and yes it does change the way you look at things.

DamnYankees: It's not an issue of honor. I didn't write this headline. Although I will say we should honor the wishes of the families and release the photos if they want to.

Well I'm going with the headline. What other reason would you want them to take those kinds of pictures?!

That and I dont want to have to put people in the position of signing a waver right after they find out a love one is dead. That's what you are asking for right there. "Hey sorry for your loss, could you sign this so we can publish the picture of your son's coffin" Lets say half want to and half don't. Wouldn't be better to be on the side of protect their privacy during a time like this?

No YOU'RE a Towel: How does any of what you said justify hiding it? Because a plane of dead soldiers is a bad political image?

That and it respects the privacy of the families.

sloppy shoes: And this would be a much better way to honor the dead. Honor is not just a proper funeral. Honor is accepting how someone died, and the causes that led to it. IN this country we seek to ignore war, because it hurts. But that is the cost of war- sweat falling, eyes closed, heart-wrenching pain.

And how is our understanding enhanced by seeing a cargo hold full of flag draped coffins?

JohnnyC:

It's so nice to have a President with real American values and not some flunky oil man pretending to give a shiat about anything other than oil.

1/10

The Stealth Hippopotamus: I have. It happened before my eyes and yes it does change the way you look at things.

So don't you see the value (or at least reality) of seeing a dead body as something fundamentally different from just reading an article?

The Stealth Hippopotamus: Well I'm going with the headline. What other reason would you want them to take those kinds of pictures?!

So we know the costs of war.

The Stealth Hippopotamus: That and I dont want to have to put people in the position of signing a waver right after they find out a love one is dead. That's what you are asking for right there. "Hey sorry for your loss, could you sign this so we can publish the picture of your son's coffin" Lets say half want to and half don't. Wouldn't be better to be on the side of protect their privacy during a time like this?

This is a dumb argument. It's about releasing photographs. They can choose to release those photos at any time. You don't need to walk up to them 5 minutes after the person died. Dumb strawman.

Diogenes: During World Wars I & II, the average citizen was much more engaged. And they didn't need saturation coverage in the media to maintain that engagement. They volunteered, they grew victory gardens, they conserved resources, and they transformed industries to support the war.

We went to the GAP.

Could you imagine if us current spoiled Americans were told that we were going to be assigned gasoline ration cards, or be denied the chance to get new clothing, or be told "sorry, there's no sugar today" because those resources needed to be put to the war effort?

"Sorry, no new Ford or Chevy models this year -- the whole factory is making tanks now."

We're at war, but there is little to no impact for those of us who don't have a family member serving. We're not sacrificing, but we can sure as hell stand tangible proof that there are those who are sacrificing.

GooberMcFly:

It could be argues that NOT showing them would insulate the public from what is actually going on, thus making the soldier's heroic sacrifice for their freedom seem less meaningful.

But the public is not insulated. Do you think that now the news will start running photos of the coffins every time a service member dies?

Mr. Coffee Nerves: Diogenes: During World Wars I & II, the average citizen was much more engaged. And they didn't need saturation coverage in the media to maintain that engagement. They volunteered, they grew victory gardens, they conserved resources, and they transformed industries to support the war.

We went to the GAP.

Could you imagine if us current spoiled Americans were told that we were going to be assigned gasoline ration cards, or be denied the chance to get new clothing, or be told "sorry, there's no sugar today" because those resources needed to be put to the war effort?

"Sorry, no new Ford or Chevy models this year -- the whole factory is making tanks now."

We're at war, but there is little to no impact for those of us who don't have a family member serving. We're not sacrificing, but we can sure as hell stand tangible proof that there are those who are sacrificing.

This again. Do you know why we had to ration gas, go without new tires etc.? Because the US was WOEFULLY unprepared for World War II. After World War II it was determined that our military would never again be caught that unprepared so you sacrifice every time you pay your taxes for a prepared military.

Hang On Voltaire: But the public is not insulated. Do you think that now the news will start running photos of the coffins every time a service member dies?

Probably not. CNN might, Fox probably won't. But at least they have the option now.