Sweet, now if only I didn't own my car, I wouldn't have to pay all those tickets.

this won't work since it is the driver they target, just like a rental

The law's unconsitutional.

he's a lawyer, nuff said

maybe I should add JRTFA
/local loophole, won't help in other jurisdictions

Worth a shot, I suppose. In the same sense that desperately clawing at the ice around the hole is worth a shot if you fall into a frozen lake.

Robots will decide what is right and wrong!

/sorry mam, you're gonn ahave to prove you were in labor. The cameras didn't pick that up.

NYRBill: this won't work since it is the driver they target, just like a rental

The problem is that they chose to define the driver as the "owner of the vehicle" and not simply the person operating it.

Face facts people you can't stop the red-light camera money grab.

Hmm... Even though I am buying my car, I don't legally own it yet, the finance company does.

Well this is interesting.

1.- Ask a friend if you can soup up his/her car
2.- Streetrace
3.- PROFIT!

It's good that once again a Lawyer has triumphed on a badly written piece of legislation and the only cost is the daily carnage caused by farkwit red-light runners.

bingo the psych-o: The problem is that they chose to define the driver as the "owner of the vehicle" and not simply the person operating it.

I already corrected myself ;-)

My bank owns my car. For the time being. Send the bill to them.

I owe about 4 more payments on the car so I technically don't own title, wonder if this will work for me...

OK, so by TFA, for $225 in fees you can jump through the loophole.. So how much is the ticket for running redlights.

Um, did anyone else see this:

every driver might have a case if they want to pay $225 in fees to appeal.

So this fine state charges you to utilize the criminal justice system.

the $225 might be worth not getting 2 points

vgss: Um, did anyone else see this:

every driver might have a case if they want to pay $225 in fees to appeal.

So this fine state charges you to utilize the criminal justice system.

Yeah, it's pretty sweet. I faced something similar when I wanted to argue a running-a-red ticket. Clean record (save one accident at 16 / black ice), and it was a fork in the road, and the light was directly over the other side of the damn fork.

/BS, the whole system

Even if he's right, I'm surprised his argument went anywhere. Last year a friend of a friend asked me to get them a deal on a parking-in-handicap-zone ticket. The guy's wife was driving; the cops never even saw her, they just saw a car in the parking spot and put a ticket on it, made out to him (as registered owner).

I show up and tell the DA, 'he wasn't driving the car.'
The DA: 'I hear ya, but the judge will fine him $500 if we go to trial.'
Me: 'well if I don't put him on the stand, all you can produce is a cop who will testify he put a ticket on an empty car. The law prohibits parking the vehicle- you can't prove he parked it. How do you propose to win?'
The DA: 'All I can tell you is, the judge has been convicting people when they go to trial. However we'll offer you a $150 deal with a non-moving violation right now.'

That is the way it goes in traffic court: they don't care what the story is, or what happened. They just want the money.

vgss: Um, did anyone else see this:

every driver might have a case if they want to pay $225 in fees to appeal.

So this fine state charges you to utilize the criminal justice system.

You forgot to add in the ~$125 (depending on pay scale) that you won't be making by taking the day off from work to fight this thing. So even if you are found to be innocent you will still be out $350.

/England Prevails

mama's_tasty_foods: The DA: 'All I can tell you is, the judge has been convicting people when they go to trial. However we'll offer you a $150 deal with a non-moving violation right now.'

I thought we had an adversarial system here, not the attorney and judge playing good cop/bad cop.

vgss: Um, did anyone else see this:

every driver might have a case if they want to pay $225 in fees to appeal.

So this fine state charges you to utilize the criminal justice system.

I doubt a traffic offense is part of the "criminal justice system." In most states, in most cases, a violation or infraction is handled more like a civil case. The fine is a civil penalty, a judgment against the defendant, but you cannot be put in jail for non-compliance. The burden of proof of the offense is only a preponderance of the evidence, not "reasonable doubt."

If you didn't charge a fee to appeal, there would be no justice for anyone because the asshats would clog up the system with frivolous arguments. In my state, you must first pay the fine imposed by the court, plus a fee to take your case to the appeals court (coincidently, it is also $225). If the judgment of the court is reversed, you get the fine paid refunded, but not the filing fee to the appeals court.

$350 might be worth it in the long run, if it removes the points. Remember, points are what make your insurance double. Course, with insurance I guess you can pay your penance monthly for a few years instead of all in one shot by appealing :)

Depends on how you want to pay it I guess-either way you'll pay. Either the insurance company, the city or state, or both :)

Anyone think that the company that leases him the cars is not going to be too pleased about getting tickets showing up in their mailbox? Seems like he'd be putting himself in jeopardy of having all of his cars revoked...

Wait, they can give you points on your license for traffic camera infractions?

I was under the impression that (in Ohio) the traffic cameras were made constitutional by placing them under the same authority as meter maids, so that the infractions could be handled by a machine instead of being witnessed by an officer. Because of this, there could be no points involved.

Either way, sooner or later someone's going to just start taking them out with a rifle from long distance.

I wonder if this is why the NYS Thruway authority is sending EZPass violations to the leasing company.

Its not unusual to get a violation notice when the toll fails to properly detect the EZPass. You just fill out the dispute form with your account information, and assuming that the account was active, you're off the hook for the fine - usually $25.

Recently, my father started getting letters from the lease company with demanding payment for violations they received and paid before forwarding. Since they've been paid, there is no opportunity to dispute the fine.

vgss: mama's_tasty_foods: The DA: 'All I can tell you is, the judge has been convicting people when they go to trial. However we'll offer you a $150 deal with a non-moving violation right now.'

I thought we had an adversarial system here, not the attorney and judge playing good cop/bad cop.

Awww... arn't people cute when they're naive? Judges know where their paychecks come from too.

Mister Peejay: Wait, they can give you points on your license for traffic camera infractions?

I was under the impression that (in Ohio) the traffic cameras were made constitutional by placing them under the same authority as meter maids, so that the infractions could be handled by a machine instead of being witnessed by an officer. Because of this, there could be no points involved.

Either way, sooner or later someone's going to just start taking them out with a rifle from long distance.

No, silly, because if you get caught you get a fine for destroying public property. A large plastic bag and a zip tie will du just fine, though. Just remember to APPROACH FROM THE REAR!

vgss: mama's_tasty_foods: The DA: 'All I can tell you is, the judge has been convicting people when they go to trial. However we'll offer you a $150 deal with a non-moving violation right now.'

I thought we had an adversarial system here, not the attorney and judge playing good cop/bad cop.

I hate to contribute to cynicism about the legal system, and often on Fark I combat ill-informed 'the system is a joke' comments. But traffic court is there to get your money, sorry to say. Some people do go to trial and get acquitted; but not many.

The municipalities have been moving away from the criminal model, to the civil infraction model where they penalize the owner of the vehicle. This kind of scheme was recently upheld against a variety of challenges by a federal appeals court in Chicago.

I still maintain that litigants have a fair shot most of the time, if they are charged with a felony, or have a civil lawsuit they must have adjudicated. But show up in traffic court, expecting to have matters resolved against you.

I'm starting a new business that will eventually require I have a vehicle. I plan to have the business buy it but then lease it back to me for $1 or so a month.

These cameras are a burden on any urban residents, another downside for residing in a city. What i've read is that the camera company earns nearly 80% of the profits from these traps.

These hardly benefit any city's budget yet city counsel are stupid enough to have them constructed. Safety my ass.

Where is robin hood when you need him?

The tickets issued by the red-light cameras are civil tickets and there are no points involved. Because there is no contact with the police they can only issue the civil tickets to the owner of the car, thus no moving traffic violation can be cited against the driver. When you receive the notice you can specify the driver or not, but they can't charge points based on camera cases. (At least in Ohio - YMMV.)

FarketyFarkerson: vgss: Um, did anyone else see this:

every driver might have a case if they want to pay $225 in fees to appeal.

So this fine state charges you to utilize the criminal justice system.

I doubt a traffic offense is part of the "criminal justice system." In most states, in most cases, a violation or infraction is handled more like a civil case. The fine is a civil penalty, a judgment against the defendant, but you cannot be put in jail for non-compliance. The burden of proof of the offense is only a preponderance of the evidence, not "reasonable doubt."

If you didn't charge a fee to appeal, there would be no justice for anyone because the asshats would clog up the system with frivolous arguments. In my state, you must first pay the fine imposed by the court, plus a fee to take your case to the appeals court (coincidently, it is also $225). If the judgment of the court is reversed, you get the fine paid refunded, but not the filing fee to the appeals court.
------------------------------------
Okay, here in Ohio, traffic tickets issued by an officer are criminal offenses, generally minor misdemeanors, which have a maximum fine of $100+ court costs and no jail time. Typical fine is $30-$50, plus court costs, which usually makes it work out to $90-$130. If you wish to take the ticket to court, they're not allowed to raise your fine or costs from what's on the ticket if you lose.

Red light cameras, on the other hand, are civil offenses, and they don't result in points assessed to your license, nor are they reported to the BMV or insurance companies. When you receive the citation in the mail, you have 3 choices: appeal, pay it, or name another driver. (this is in Columbus)

Now, I don't particularly care for red light cameras, but, at least in Columbus, you'd have to be a complete idiot to get a ticket from one. The way it works here is this: the intersections that have them are well marked, and the way the cameras are tripped is this: when the light turns red (not yellow... red) there is a short delay period. After that, any car that begins to cross the stopping bar is photographed, and then photographed again in the intersection. It's the photo in the intersection that results in the ticket. Basically, if you enter the intersection on yellow, even if the light turns red just as you reach the stop bar on the pavement, you're fine. You actually have to DELIBERATELY run a red light in order to get a ticket with this system.

Oh, FARK Cleveland's Traffic Cams ...

Got nailed for a speed on green by one of the bastards. I was doing 41 in a 35. Fark Cleveland. Seriously.

/Linky of my cam video.
//Would be cooler if it didn't cost me $100
///Bastards!