Seven and a half years into their Afghan invasion, the Soviets were planning their withdrawal. You know what we're doing?

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Produce more flags?

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Do tell. Is it a full scale invasion? Global thermonuclear war?

Oh drat. Isn't Iran is a shovel-ready project?

Wasn't their economy effected?

I have come to the conclusion that a long-term presence in Afghanistan is a wase of time.

A: The primary tasks, defeating the Taliban and shattering Al-queda, have been completed.

B: Culturally, the people there are very primitive and cannot maintain a proper government.

C: There is no reason or benefit for a long-term occupation. Get the hell out and concentrate on Iraq, which offers a better way to deal with Islamic terrorism.

You forgot to add "that's change we can believe in" to the end, subby.

I'm trying really hard to figure out why this merits the "scary" tag.

Is it because we're talking about withdrawing from sort-of-dumb occupation before the dumb-as-all-fark occupation?

/ Was never convinced an occupation was the only way to achieve our goals in Afghanistan.
// Was against the war in Iraq way, way before that was a popular position.
/// Is against several other wars, but they're so indie you probably haven't heard of them yet.

fallingcow: I'm trying really hard to figure out why this merits the "scary" tag.

Is it because we're talking about withdrawing from sort-of-dumb occupation before the dumb-as-all-fark occupation?

/ Was never convinced an occupation was the only way to achieve our goals in Afghanistan.
// Was against the war in Iraq way, way before that was a popular position.
/// Is against several other wars, but they're so indie you probably haven't heard of them yet.

Iraq is critical to the war on terror.

We're planning to increase troops... a surge, if you will. We have a military venture with no concrete goals and no clear exit strategy. My only question is: Why does subby hate America?

Swampthing in Korea: I have come to the conclusion that a long-term presence in Afghanistan is a wase of time.

A: The primary tasks, defeating the Taliban and shattering Al-queda, have been completed.

fallingcow: /// Is against several other wars, but they're so indie you probably haven't heard of them yet.

Oh that's just foxy. A+ would lol again.

I was also in mute horror during the drumming for the Iraq invasion. Good thing that liberal media came and saved the day.

HempHead: Swampthing in Korea: I have come to the conclusion that a long-term presence in Afghanistan is a wase of time.

A: The primary tasks, defeating the Taliban and shattering Al-queda, have been completed.

Would you care to offer a reason as to why I am wrong, or do you just want to post pictures and act snarky?

Making room for the taco?

PoopStain: Does subby even realize they left because the US was waging a proxy war? Probably not, because subby is a goddamn retard.

Absent setting up bases that will help us take care of Pakistan, this is a pretty good assessment of the country:

Swampthing in Korea: B: Culturally, the people there are very primitive and cannot maintain a proper government.

They're at least 200 years behind anything that could be considered "modern". Are they really worth saving? Let's just poison the land and withdraw. Spend money to close off the borders from neighboring countries.

Considering that the modern era basically began with the enlightenment, I would say being 200 years behind is a somewhat forgiving number.

fallingcow:
/// Is against several other wars, but they're so indie you probably haven't heard of them yet.

psh...you're just a poser. I was watching the Colombian Civil War war back when they were playing clubs in Brooklyn in 64.

I was once pulled on stage by Burundi Civil War Experience during a gig in Philly. I totally got to sing Tutsi Nearer to my Heart with the lead singer Pierre Nkurunziza, but I don't listen to them anymore after they sold out in 2005.

I think the Burma (Myanmar) Civil War Boys had a lot of pep until they hit the mainstream. Now I can't even listen to their original dubs I got offa eBay last year.

sarcastrophe: We're planning to increase troops... a surge, if you will. We have a military venture with no concrete goals and no clear exit strategy. My only question is: Why does subby hate America?


wtf are you talking about?

Cmon man, if you're going to waargarbl, make it barely comprehensible at least.

I thought we were bringing these people Freedom from Islamic oppression? Now that Obama is President you tools are taking shots at the Bush programs and policies he chooses to continue with?

Enjoy your ride as the GOP circles the bowl folks, you earned it.

Satyagraha: Seven and a half years into their Afghan invasion, the Soviets were planning their withdrawal. You know what we're doing?

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Produce more flags?

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Over in one.

FTFA: Another myth is that the west "walked away" after the Russians left. If only it had. Instead Washington and Pakistan broke the Geneva agreement by maintaining arms supplies to the mujahideen. They encouraged them to reject Najibullah's repeated efforts at national reconciliation. The mujahideen wanted all-out victory, which they eventually got, only to squander it in an orgy of artillery shelling that left Kabul in ruins and produced the anger that paved the way for the Taliban. If western governments are now paying a high price in Afghanistan, they have brought the disaster on themselves.

The Taliban will not drive Nato out militarily. The notion that Afghans always defeat foreigners is wrong. The real lesson of the Soviet war is that in Afghanistan political and cultural disunity can slide into massive and prolonged violence. Foreigners intervene at their peril.

Seemed to be the most important part of the column. Probably can sum it up into something about never fighting a land war in Asia.

It seems a lot like the West's involvement in Afghanistan is caught between a rock and a hard place. We're screwed if we leave, and we're screwed if we stay.

Also had trouble in Afghanistan.

Rickerkioz: I totally got to sing Tutsi Nearer to my Heart with the lead singer Pierre Nkurunziza, but I don't listen to them anymore after they sold out in 2005.

I know you feel. The Hutu Nation has been dead to me since 1972 and that whole Burundi Genocide collaboration.

starsrift: FTFA: Another myth is that the west "walked away" after the Russians left. If only it had. Instead Washington and Pakistan broke the Geneva agreement by maintaining arms supplies to the mujahideen. They encouraged them to reject Najibullah's repeated efforts at national reconciliation. The mujahideen wanted all-out victory, which they eventually got, only to squander it in an orgy of artillery shelling that left Kabul in ruins and produced the anger that paved the way for the Taliban. If western governments are now paying a high price in Afghanistan, they have brought the disaster on themselves.

The Taliban will not drive Nato out militarily. The notion that Afghans always defeat foreigners is wrong. The real lesson of the Soviet war is that in Afghanistan political and cultural disunity can slide into massive and prolonged violence. Foreigners intervene at their peril.

Seemed to be the most important part of the column. Probably can sum it up into something about never fighting a land war in Asia.

It seems a lot like the West's involvement in Afghanistan is caught between a rock and a hard place. We're screwed if we leave, and we're screwed if we stay.

True. But we're less screwed if we leave, and enough people now have seen through the "war on terror" hoax that it is politically feasible.
I hope we get out, and soon. We need our troops here at home, providing the constitutionally mandated service of protecting American soil, and American soil alone.
Let's face it - the "war on terror" has never been anything but a slogan, like "war on poverty" or "war on drugs". You can fight a war against a nation or a people. You can't fight a war against a tactic. Modern technology has made terrorism a reality we are going to have to learn to live with. It is not a hostile, foreign force - it is a tactic. And it is a tactic that ANYBODY with an ax to grind can utilize. Yes, foreign religious fanatics are going to employ it - so are our domestic religious fanatics (McVeigh, Rudolph), lunatics (Kozynski) and common criminals (Mediene Cartel, Arrellano Felix, etc.). It can't be "stamped out", and it won't be, and anyone who tells you it can is either a liar or a fool.
We need to abandon this false paradigm and return to the (real) conservative policy of using our armed forces to protect our own nation from invasion and attack. As it stands now, despite all the money and lives we've pissed away in shiatholes like Korea, Vietnam, Bosnia, Afghanistan and Iraq, we are less safe than at any time in my life since the cold war days of the early sixties, and have lost almost all of our international goodwill.
I don't know all the solutions to our problems - but I do know when what we're doing ain't working. It's time to try something else.

Seven and a half years of getting nowhere and getting their butts kicked is not quite the same as seven and a half years of getting a lot done and kicking the Taliban's arse.

randomjsa: Seven and a half years of getting nowhere and getting their butts kicked is not quite the same as seven and a half years of getting a lot done and kicking the Taliban's arse.

No. But how is that relevant? We aren't "kicking the Taliban's ass" - they're kicking ours. They have us mired up to the short hairs in their shiathole of a country, draining our resources and killing our soldiers, and they will never stop. Ever. For one thing, there is an endless supply of them right over the border in Pakistan, where they are LITERALLY breeding terrorists faster than we can kill them. Shall we invade and occupy Pakistan too? And when that fails, then what?
Primate behavior is perverse. The Malaysians have a very effective traditional monkey trap. It consists of a coconut shell with some cooked rice in it, tethered to a tree, and with a hole in it just large enough for the monkey to put his hand into. When a monkey discovers it, he reaches inside and grabs a handful of rice, and then tries to withdraw his hand - but he can't, because his fistful of rice won't fit through the hole that would only admit his extended hand. And even as the hunters approach, and grab him for their cookpot, he clings to his handful of rice, and refuses to relenquish it and save himself.
And just like our primate cousins, we humans too will cling to outmoded and bad ideas even as it becomes abundantly evident that they are threatening our survival. Stubborness is not character. It is not tenacity. It is not courage. It is simply primate stupidity expressed in human terms - and it is a threat to our survival.

We're not fighting a proxy with another global superpower?
Yeah, that would be the key difference.
The only people gunning for us in Afghanistan are a bunch of right wing religious a-holes.

jso2897: Primate behavior is perverse. The Malaysians have a very effective traditional monkey trap. It consists of a coconut shell with some cooked rice in it, tethered to a tree, and with a hole in it just large enough for the monkey to put his hand into. When a monkey discovers it, he reaches inside and grabs a handful of rice, and then tries to withdraw his hand - but he can't, because his fistful of rice won't fit through the hole that would only admit his extended hand. And even as the hunters approach, and grab him for their cookpot, he clings to his handful of rice, and refuses to relenquish it and save himself.

nice analogy

rathoth: We're not fighting a proxy with another global superpower?
Yeah, that would be the key difference.
The only people gunning for us in Afghanistan are a bunch of right wing religious a-holes.

And that's an important difference. The former type of conflict can actually be (kinda) won. The latter - essentially a war of occupation - cannot.
The only way to win a war of occupation is to do what the Spanish, Dutch, and English did in the Americas - basically, genocide. The only way we could ever "win" in Afghanistan would be to exterminate her people, and about two thirds of Pakistan, and colonize it. And I don't think that's going to fly in today's world.

the soviets lost like 15,000 soldiers in that war, if we lost that many I'm sure we'd be pulling out too

All I want to know is what happened to Bin Laden. Is he really still alive, dead, what?

ski_adk115: All I want to know is what happened to Bin Laden. Is he really still alive, dead, what?

Barack Obama suggested in an interview with CBS that removing Osama bin Laden from the battlefield was no longer essential and that America's security goals could be achieved merely by keeping al-Qaeda "on the run".

"My preference obviously would be to capture or kill him," he said. "But if we have so tightened the noose that he's in a cave somewhere and can't even communicate with his operatives then we will meet our goal of protecting America."

There you have it, he's under House arrest in a cave somewhere in Pakistan and can't leave the country.

Swampthing in Korea: A: The primary tasks, defeating the Taliban and shattering Al-queda, have been completed

I'm guessing you watch Fox news.
Taliban is not defeated. Soldiers are still dieing in Afghanistan from freedom fighters. Some communities prefer the Taliban as they are not as corrupt as the Afghan Army.

But it doesn't surprise me that you believe this if you are from USA. Your media is crap and they censor the truth.

"You fell victim to one of the classic blunders! The most famous is never get involved in a land war in Asia,"

or a little more high brow...

When you're lying out there on Afghanistan's plains
And the women come out to cut up your remains
Then roll on your rifle and blow out your brains
And go to your God like a soldier
Kipling

Afghanistan cannot be conquered. It is where Empires go to die.
The USSR and the British empire are both buried there.

Obama's gonna change it, he's gonna rearrange it! He's gonna spread peeeeaaaccceee, he's gonna spread freeeeedom!

/troops start coming home from Iraq next week, right?

Ask these two about the Soviets and Afgahnistan and "Operation Cyclone" subby

Mr Logo: nice analogyfarking great analogy!

I guess if you've got an italic tag and a Fark right next to each other, they just sort of fuse together....

Swampthing in Korea: A: The primary tasks, defeating the Taliban and shattering Al-queda, have been completed.

They haven't been "defeated", so much as "relocated to Pakistan".

andrewabc

Taliban were in power:

Now they are not in power. They were defeated.

I did not say annihilated or rendered extinct. Merely that their regime was toppled.

How cares if they come back into power again, I do not think they will be hosting Al-queda any time soon.

allow me to make a modest proposal. We Castrate 3/4 of their men during the night, and enstate females as their leaders. then make it a reality tv show.


profit!

PROMOTIONS!

Swampthing in Korea: andrewabc

Taliban were in power:

Now they are not in power. They were defeated.

I did not say annihilated or rendered extinct. Merely that their regime was toppled.

How cares if they come back into power again, I do not think they will be hosting Al-queda any time soon.

Al-Qaeda leadership has found safety in the Pakistan Tribal Areas by having a troop presence in Afghanistan it is easier for the military to strike at them.

But I'd hope you know that and are just trolling. In which case, carry on.

Send the Republicans to wage their Insurgency against the Taliban.

In their defense, Russia was fighting both the Afghans, and the United States military. That's a tough win.

Although, America did the right thing by backing the enemy of our enemy. I mean, what could possibly go wrong if we throw tons of money and weapons to this nice little Taliban group? This Bin Laden guy seems nice enough, and he IS fighting the evil Russians.

/blowback ..... it's a given

Tourney3p0: Satyagraha: Seven and a half years into their Afghan invasion, the Soviets were planning their withdrawal. You know what we're doing?

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Produce more flags?

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Over in one.

Douchebag in one

Carth: Swampthing in Korea: andrewabc

Taliban were in power:

Now they are not in power. They were defeated.

I did not say annihilated or rendered extinct. Merely that their regime was toppled.

How cares if they come back into power again, I do not think they will be hosting Al-queda any time soon.

Al-Qaeda leadership has found safety in the Pakistan Tribal Areas by having a troop presence in Afghanistan it is easier for the military to strike at them.

But I'd hope you know that and are just trolling. In which case, carry on.

Yes, but there are two issues:

A: Al-queda is not the sole personification of Islamic terrorism. The ideology itself is the main problem.

B: They are on the run and their organized is being monitored and hounded all across the world.

Ah the new American Vietnam, thanks to Chairman Obama

Headso: the soviets lost like 15,000 soldiers in that war, if we lost that many I'm sure we'd be pulling out too

Didn't rtfa, and...

randomjsa: Seven and a half years of getting nowhere and getting their butts kicked is not quite the same as seven and a half years of getting a lot done and kicking the Taliban's arse.

Didn't rtfa.

I know the typical american military mentality is to tick off relative body counts and declare the lowest one the winner, but that isn't what the author is talking about.

He's saying there is no credible objective that can be achieved by our continued military presence. Factional infighting, and the lessons we learned from after the Soviet withdrawal, show that efforts to stabilize Afghanistan are doomed to fail.

And he's right, btw.

gilgigamesh: Headso: the soviets lost like 15,000 soldiers in that war, if we lost that many I'm sure we'd be pulling out too

Didn't rtfa, and...

randomjsa: Seven and a half years of getting nowhere and getting their butts kicked is not quite the same as seven and a half years of getting a lot done and kicking the Taliban's arse.

Didn't rtfa.

I know the typical american military mentality is to tick off relative body counts and declare the lowest one the winner, but that isn't what the author is talking about.

He's saying there is no credible objective that can be achieved by our continued military presence. Factional infighting, and the lessons we learned from after the Soviet withdrawal, show that efforts to stabilize Afghanistan are doomed to fail.

And he's right, btw.

We need someplace to put all those troops coming out of Iraq. God forbid these guys would stop being forced to re-sign their contracts through stop loss and end up on the all ready over-taxed employment market. Last thing we need is to have a million more unemployed (counting contractors) men roaming the streets.

Also, the Soviets accomplished about as much as we have. A puppet government that only has control of the Capital and a great big pit of suck to pour their money into.

A conquered people can only be conquered if they choose to be or are wiped out. No other option will ever exist.

A conquered people can only be conquered if they choose to be or are wiped out. No other option will ever exist.

so why is Chairman Obama? Adding more troups targets?

Apik0r0s: wtf are you talking about?

Cmon man, if you're going to waargarbl, make it barely comprehensible at least.

I thought we were bringing these people Freedom from Islamic oppression? Now that Obama is President you tools are taking shots at the Bush programs and policies he chooses to continue with?

Enjoy your ride as the GOP circles the bowl folks, you earned it.

You really don't get it, do you? You have to be one of the most ignorant people I've come across around here.

andrewabc: Swampthing in Korea: A: The primary tasks, defeating the Taliban and shattering Al-queda, have been completed

I'm guessing you watch Fox news.
Taliban is not defeated. Soldiers are still dieing in Afghanistan from freedom fighters. Some communities prefer the Taliban as they are not as corrupt as the Afghan Army.

But it doesn't surprise me that you believe this if you are from USA. Your media is crap and they censor the truth.

Well, I'm from the USA too, and I think he's sadly mistaken - so there must be more to it than nationality. Brains, maybe?

Swampthing in Korea: andrewabc

Taliban were in power:

Now they are not in power. They were defeated.

I did not say annihilated or rendered extinct. Merely that their regime was toppled.

How cares if they come back into power again, I do not think they will be hosting Al-queda any time soon.

Considering the Taliban already hosts al Qaeda in Pakistan, and most Pashtuns treat the Durand Line like a joke, there is every reason to believe the Taliban will head straight to Kabul (with Pakistani ISI backing, as usual) the moment we leave.

That means once again there will be terrorist training camps in the Pashtun regions of Afghanistan. That means once again Osama bin Ladin, the man we failed to kill when we had the chance in Tora Bora 2001, will have all the men, money and arms he needs to concoct the next major attack on America.

I'm not trying to be a fearmonger. I'm just saying that this is what will happen. We shouldn't be scared. We should deal with it and fight a war to win for a change.