"Florida, in some ways, resembles a modern Ponzi scheme. Everything is fine for me if a thousand newcomers come tomorrow."

Explains the tax code, and the steady stream of nutty news.

All i know is, I want a law for every 10 New Yorkers that move in, there should be one decent sandwich shop or pizza shop.

/Stop talking about how good the food is in New York and just make it happen.

Housing is just like anything else... it is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it (despite what a Realtor will tell you.)

This has been the basis for the Floridian real estate market since the 60s. Nothing new here. Floridians just hate hearing it from their own.



This guy wanted for questioning...

Party Boy: /Stop talking about how good the food is in New York and just make it happen.

The only thing remarkable about New York food is that it's overpriced and often prepared in filthy conditions.

hubiestubert: Floridians just hate hearing it from their own.

IMO, Floridians are fine hearing about it. Its one way to shift the costs of growth to the people making the growth.

What Floridians hate to hear about, IMO, is how damn awful our development plans are and how bad our schools are. There's also this forgotten tidbit. Floridians voted for a bullet train in 2000, then it came up again in 2004, where it was repealed.


(2004) Bush kicks off drive to stop bullet train plans

Con_Authority: The only thing remarkable about New York food

There must be a whole cacophony of New York transplants simultaneously grabbing their junk going "Ohhhhh, what the ____. ____ that guy. F this and S that.

/add in more stereotypes as needed.

moar funny pictures

Florida tag collides with Obvious tag; Scary, Asinine, and Dumbass are caught in the resulting nubberneck delays.

Florida can never really come to grips with saving the environment because a very large percentage of the population at any given time just got there. So why should they fight to turn the clock back? It looks great to them the way it is. Two years later, as they are beginning to feel uneasy, a few thousand more people are just discovering it all for the first time and wouldn't change a thing. And meanwhile the people who knew what it was like twenty years ago are an ever-dwindling minority, a voice too faint to be heard.

--John D. MacDonald, The Empty Copper Sea--1978

And sadly, it illustrates more than just the view on the environment...

While I am an upside-down morgage guy in Florida, I still paid $100,000 to $150,000 less for my house than I would have in the northeast.

/buying at peak sucks, but at least it wasn't $400,000 for a shiaty 2 bedroom condo.

Party Boy: S that

Who taught you how to curse?

Rush's_pills: While I am an upside-down morgage guy in Florida, I still paid $100,000 to $150,000 less for my house than I would have in the northeast.

If you paid that much less for my house, you would have gotten it for free.

\Lives in the Northeast
\\In a city, no less

Mortgage institutions will and should take a loss, as they do in foreclosure sales. But they'll get payments.

McCabe admits using government that way horrifies him.

"I'd prefer we did nothing with tax dollars to help anyone," and let the market sort itself out, he said. But this time, "It's a crisis and we need to stem the tide."

Damn this sort of view pisses me off. You, like thousands of others in any other sort of market, SPECULATED. You wouldn't be biatching if you came out on the positive side of the equation, but now, while you hate using government this way, you think everyone should get a bailout and the country and evil mortgage companies should take the hit.

The problem with bailouts is nobody learns anything. People don't make good decisions, and corporations and local governments continue to make shiatty, fiscally irresponsible moves because they're working with a safety net. Failure is part of the process, people. You have to take the good with the bad.

/Upside-down
//Stuck in Florida having purchased about 3.5 years ago
///Taking my lumps

In case anyone hasn't noticed America's entire economy is a Ponzi scheme. We need millions of new people to run themselves into debt buying things they can't afford and giving their imaginary credit card money to us old timers upping our incomes so our credit ratings go up so we get dig ourselves even deeper in debt buying things we can't afford and that will buy a few more years of fake economic prosperity.

No joke the democrats and republicans both agree that the key to solving our economic problems is to bury everybody in far deeper mountains of debt. They just disagree on how to get there.

Well thanks to the housing construction boom in Florida, costs are down for us renters :P

skyrous: In case anyone hasn't noticed America's entire economy is a Ponzi scheme. We need millions of new people to run themselves into debt buying things they can't afford and giving their imaginary credit card money to us old timers upping our incomes so our credit ratings go up so we get dig ourselves even deeper in debt buying things we can't afford and that will buy a few more years of fake economic prosperity.

No joke the democrats and republicans both agree that the key to solving our economic problems is to bury everybody in far deeper mountains of debt. They just disagree on how to get there.

You didn't get the memo? We're gonna rack up alot of debt with China and the rest of world. Then we're gonna slowly leave the country little by little, then the last guy left in America will have to either figure out a way to run the money printing press or try to run. We're all planning on rendezvousing in Australia.

Arkanaut: Who taught you how to curse?

Bill Cosby

Government pressure, and some of the money being pumped into the banking system, should be used to cancel debt to the point that no one owes more than 90 percent of a home's value.

Problem is that not enough politically connected (Pelosi friends) will be able to fleece money off 'managing' that deal to ever hive it passed.

The Icelander: Rush's_pills: While I am an upside-down morgage guy in Florida, I still paid $100,000 to $150,000 less for my house than I would have in the northeast.

If you paid that much less for my house, you would have gotten it for free.

\Lives in the Northeast
\\In a city, no less

Must be a backwater. I left Boston for Tampa. Paid just north of $200,000 for my house down here. Would have paid more than that for a 2-bedroom in Taunton at the time(2004).

Times have changed and it sucks for me...but I would have still been renting back north. I'm in no rush to leave, pretty sure I can wait it out.

Don't worry upside downers, inflation will make your over-priced house affordable again in a few years.

NYZooMan: Don't worry upside downers, inflation will make your over-priced house affordable again in a few years.

Yes, because you can get real wealth gains through inflation.

How many homes in FL are second homes for retirees/yuppies/Floridians? That will give you an idea how long it will take for the market to return to normal.

Hint: a decade.

Ugh. Why do people whine about the current value of their home vs. their purchase price?

You must have thought that the price for your house was sound when you bought it, in which case you got a fair deal--stop biatching.

If you didn't think it was a fair price but bought it anyway, then you're an idiot--stop breeding.

The Loaf: Ugh. Why do people whine about the current value of their home vs. their purchase price?

You must have thought that the price for your house was sound when you bought it, in which case you got a fair deal--stop biatching.

If you didn't think it was a fair price but bought it anyway, then you're an idiot--stop breeding.

Because too many people view a house as an investment, rather than somewhere to live.

Yeah, but what are the odds of an alien slaveship crashing in Florida tomorrow?

Now I understand the mentality to pave over the entire state better.

/Miss orange groves, pine woods, pastures that used to exist in Pinellas County.
//Available parking spaces at Clearwater Beach too.

Wizzin: Because too many people view a house as an investment, rather than somewhere to live.

I disagree - too many people don't view the house as an investment and make stupid buying decisions. But that's no surprise the average person sucks at making investment decisions.

My house is an investment and I just happen to live there. I did the research with that in mind and bought into a older established neighborhood. The house isn't the greatest but that's not the point. The point is to make money when I do sell. Which I will.

skyrous: In case anyone hasn't noticed America's entire economy is a Ponzi scheme.

Thats how I feel every time I make a FICA payment.

Xenomech: Yeah, but what are the odds of an alien slaveship crashing in Florida tomorrow?

Like anyone would really notice the difference from your average Floridan.

This moron doesn't understand the difference between a Ponzi scheme and pure economic Supply and Demand.

Demand dried up, supply increased, prices went down.

No "Ponzi Scheme" necessary to explain that one, just rudimentary High School Econ.

Young Rory Calhoun
skyrous: In case anyone hasn't noticed America's entire economy is a Ponzi scheme. We need millions of new people to run themselves into debt buying things they can't afford and giving their imaginary credit card money to us old timers upping our incomes so our credit ratings go up so we get dig ourselves even deeper in debt buying things we can't afford and that will buy a few more years of fake economic prosperity.

No joke the democrats and republicans both agree that the key to solving our economic problems is to bury everybody in far deeper mountains of debt. They just disagree on how to get there.

You didn't get the memo? We're gonna rack up alot of debt with China and the rest of world. Then we're gonna slowly leave the country little by little, then the last guy left in America will have to either figure out a way to run the money printing press or try to run. We're all planning on rendezvousing in Australia.

Come on China. You used to be cool, man.

hubiestubert: This has been the basis for the Floridian real estate market since the 60s 20s. Nothing new here. Floridians just hate hearing it from their own.

Florida land boom of the 1920s

I keep coming back to this article as the best time-capsule piece to explain what the hell just happened.

NY Times (hope it posts... if not, google for "Salsa Dancer Condo")

Is it too much a stretch to say rampant greed played at least a small part in the housing market crash?

I paid $106K for a 2600 s.f. house on 5 acres in 2004, so I am getting a real kick out of these replies.

/appraised at $195K this past year.

I'm with you Pick.

I'm a native Floridian, and I paid $115k for my house in '01, got 3.8% for 30 years, and the house still appraised last year for $225k.

Bought it from some transplant New Yorkers who decided to move up to a more expensive house. Last I heard, they had two more 'speculation' homes they couldn't afford, and filed bankruptcy. My heart bleeds.

I can afford the mortgage, mostly due to the low interest rate, and I didn't get greedy a few years ago when all of my neighbors went for the HELOC or the quick Re-fi for cash.

I'll be here for a while, and since it's not a recent build ('88), it's likely the house will too.

For some of us, a house is both an investment and a place to live.

Party Boy: S that

Arkanaut:Who taught you how to curse?



Ned Slanders?

Wizzin: Because too many people view a house as an investment, rather than somewhere to live.

A house isn't an ATM card?! Got damn it... *mumble, mumble*

/my wife complains about the value of our house today all the time.

I also am reminded of a pleasant story about one of my co-workers. His wife was doing the wife thing, measuring their husbands' financial penises... how much "stuff" they had, what kinds of cars they could drive, the size of the houses. My co-worker's wife was pissed because they were living in a smaller house, had less stuff, and both husbands were at the same approximate level in the financial industry.

My co-worker explained to his wife how cash-out refis work, and what responsible home ownership means (i.e. it's a house, not an ATM), and how FUBAR the wife's friend would be if the economy went in the shiatter.

And that was the end of that story.

legion_of_doo: I also am reminded of a pleasant story about one of my co-workers. His wife was doing the wife thing, measuring their husbands' financial penises... how much "stuff" they had, what kinds of cars they could drive, the size of the houses. My co-worker's wife was pissed because they were living in a smaller house, had less stuff, and both husbands were at the same approximate level in the financial industry.

My co-worker explained to his wife how cash-out refis work, and what responsible home ownership means (i.e. it's a house, not an ATM), and how FUBAR the wife's friend would be if the economy went in the shiatter.

And that was the end of that story.

Blah, I get ahead of myself in explaining this due to the low battery warning...

My co-worker's wife was talking to one of her friends, measuring their respective husbands' financial penii.

(My co-worker being responsible with the mortgage, and the friend doing the cash-out refi thing over and over)

Fixed it for myself...

Texmandie: hubiestubert: This has been the basis for the Floridian real estate market since the 60s 20s. Nothing new here. Floridians just hate hearing it from their own.

Florida land boom of the 1920s

True 'nuff. But I wanted to make it accessible for the folks who think it's a new thing. ;)

Xenomech: Yeah, but what are the odds of an alien slaveship crashing in Florida tomorrow?

Ask the folks in Clearwater.

How is this different from everywhere else in the country? When I moved back to Florida from San Diego a year ago, they were still building housing like they thought a million suckers were about to drop in and buy their overpriced condos.

theorellior: Xenomech: Yeah, but what are the odds of an alien slaveship crashing in Florida tomorrow?

Ask the folks in Clearwater.

*golfclap*

dletter: Housing is just like anything else... it is only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it (despite what a Realtor will tell you.)

Everything you need to know about Realtors (new window)

FTFA: Some real estate talking heads say the floor has been reached, or is near. But since they said that during the entire plunge, I see things more as Jack McCabe does. He thinks we need to build the floor.

This is wishful thinking.

A lot of ARMs are going to adjust in the near future, which will push up foreclosures. ALSO, employers are still sending jobs out of the country and/or laying off people outright. The economy is still losing jobs, so as people are laid off, most of them are not finding suitable replacement work. And -- despite what employers seem to think, and apparently don't give a shiat about -- when people are laid off and have no money coming in, they can't afford to buy big ticket items like houses and new cars, let alone pay their existing mortgages or car payments.

Economists are still scratching their heads about the real estate free fall... It's all about the jobs, folks.

We won't hit the bottom of the housing market until we stop the hemorrhage in the job market. And from the way things look, that's going to be a while.

Fark Me To Tears: FTFA: Some real estate talking heads say the floor has been reached, or is near. But since they said that during the entire plunge, I see things more as Jack McCabe does. He thinks we need to build the floor.

This is wishful thinking.

A lot of ARMs are going to adjust in the near future, which will push up foreclosures. ALSO, employers are still sending jobs out of the country and/or laying off people outright. The economy is still losing jobs, so as people are laid off, most of them are not finding suitable replacement work. And -- despite what employers seem to think, and apparently don't give a shiat about -- when people are laid off and have no money coming in, they can't afford to buy big ticket items like houses and new cars, let alone pay their existing mortgages or car payments.

Economists are still scratching their heads about the real estate free fall... It's all about the jobs, folks.

We won't hit the bottom of the housing market until we stop the hemorrhage in the job market. And from the way things look, that's going to be a while.

Well, that may be more true in other states than Florida, where we get a lot of retirees who buy homes for cash and don't care about getting jobs. The problem is that many of those people can't sell their homes up north (or wherever they are) in order to buy one here. Like California, this is still a desirable place and people will want to move here,so I think housing recovery will happen here faster than some other places. But it's still going to take a while.

Another thing that people in Florida are dealing with is skyrocketing insurance premiums. Any adjustable mortgage rates are peanuts compared to what you have to pay for homeowner's, windstorm, and in many cases, flood. I bought the home next door in '03 and fixed it up and kept it as a vacation rental property, and I have a 5% loan. The payment on the house is $550 and taxes and insurance add nearly another $1000 to that each month. It's obscene. And where I live, my mortgage is free and clear but I have a main house and guest house, and end up having to pay really exorbitant insurance bills for each property. When I bought in 1997, those rates were very reasonable, but that was before the disastrous hurricane seasons of 04-05.

The Loaf: Ugh. Why do people whine about the current value of their home vs. their purchase price?

Because if the value goes down, you've lost equity. In fact, you can end up, like millions did, with negative equity, meaning you can't even sell or refinance the house.

Plenty of people bought houses under the notion that it's better to build up equity during a mortgage than to rent. Not everyone buys a house with the intent to live there for decades.

We better find life on another planet, who else are we gonna peddle our debt to?

what i never can understand is why is it illegal for gas stations to gouge drivers following a hurricane? If there is no supply, the price goes up to the point where people will either pony up the cash or not drive. Isn't that how the whole capitalist society is run? Why is it farking illegal to do so at the best time in the world, cost/profit wise anyways...

hubiestubert: Florida can never really come to grips with saving the environment because a very large percentage of the population at any given time just got there. So why should they fight to turn the clock back? It looks great to them the way it is. Two years later, as they are beginning to feel uneasy, a few thousand more people are just discovering it all for the first time and wouldn't change a thing. And meanwhile the people who knew what it was like twenty years ago are an ever-dwindling minority, a voice too faint to be heard.

--John D. MacDonald, The Empty Copper Sea--1978

And sadly, it illustrates more than just the view on the environment...

I love those books, and they are exactly the reason why I have promised to never move to Florida and contribute to the mess.