I talked about this briefly in the big stimulus thread we had today, but I thought the issue was worthy of separate consideration.

These articles (along with the headline article) roughly explain my case:

How Obama must sell his recovery plan: Democrats have to get off defense...

Obama Losing Stimulus Fight to Defeated GOP

Basically, it seems that as long as Obama and the Dems keep ceding the Republicans exclusive rights to aggressive PR offense in the media (especially on economic and foreign policy matters), they're gonna keep getting outmaneuvered in a media environment only too eager to play to the bias they have for boosting aggressive right wingers (Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc.) while not-so-subtly looking down upon aggressive lefties and moderates.

it is fairly interesting to see how badly obama's handled the pr for this issue considering how well he handled it throughout the election.

thomps: it is fairly interesting to see how badly obama's handled the pr for this issue considering how well he handled it throughout the election.

Exactly! It's really frustrating to see this from a team who's so obviously media-savvy.

I'm guessing part of the reason is that the Obama people are now much more focused on getting things done instead of selling and planning. The Republicans in congress on the other hand have nothing to do all day but fuss like children about it. Really though, Obama's people should have seen this coming since the Republicans are trying to pretend that I'm five years old and it's 1993 again.

Any of you farking people ever consider that it's a piece of shiat bill?

Nope. Must be a mistake, or some other shenanigans.

Newflash guys. You can't polish a turd.

$900,000,000,000 dollars

300,000,000 people

7% unemployment

21,000,000 unemployed

= $42857 to every unemployed person


OR

We can spend the $900B and hope to create 21 million jobs, which has never and will never happen.

OR

We can cut taxes, letting people keep what they've earned, and put off building new zoos and studying the mating habits of endangered birds until a more rational environment prevails.

They underestimated the stubbornness of the Republicans, the influence of their mouthpieces in media and AM radio, and their tendency to value outright lies over logic and working for the good of the country.

Naive fools, they thought being selected by the American people and following through on the promises they made to those people would be at least somewhat welcomed. Hopefully now they realize the need to be aggressive in getting their message out 24/7 to at least keep their agenda on par with the right-wing din.

I hope so. It would be immensely frustrating to be part of a majority voting for change and then having that all scrapped due to the incessant whining and falsehoods of the minority. Reasoned debate, yes, welcome it, but this baloney? It's just spewing bile for the sake of spewing bile.

Quit throwing a dummy spit, Republicans.

Nebulious: I'm guessing part of the reason is that the Obama people are now much more focused on getting things done instead of selling and planning. The Republicans in congress on the other hand have nothing to do all day but fuss like children about it. Really though, Obama's people should have seen this coming since the Republicans are trying to pretend that I'm five years old and it's 1993 again.

They have the unmitigated gall to sit and assure us that despite all their time in charge they aren't even remotely responsible for any problems and that they are the only ones who now know how to solve the problems the Dems caused under their watch.

How do you even begin to deal with that ?

JacksBlack: 900,000,000,000 dollars

300,000,000 people

7% unemployment

21,000,000 unemployed

= $42857 to every unemployed person

That's some great math there, Ric.
Do you also do house painting, you dumb as a rock bastard?

Do you even know what the multiplier effect is? One person who has a job buys things sustaining many other jobs?

Is this rocket science? I'm sorry, did that hurt your brain?

Mordant: How do you even begin to deal with that ?

It goes against Barrack's style, but he really needs someone willing to get on a podium and call out the people hurting the process. Tell them flat out that people are losing their livelihoods and futures with every fleeting day just so the Republicans can score political points. Explicitly spell out this is why they lost the last election: because they refuse to recognize that this country has problems and needs well thought-out solutions that don't serendipitously benefit huge campaign donors.

Seriously, Rush Limbaugh? Why is anyone giving a rat's arse about this hateful, negative man? I work with a guy like him. He shows up, tells me I'm doing everything wrong, and disappears without lifting a finger to actually help. Took him months just to do get one task completed that he only began this week. This isn't a time to be running to Rush and Joe the Plumber. They are irrelevant.

I'm sure Obama's administration is doing things wrong, it's a safe bet. But for the congress Republicans to come in with an agenda of disharmony instead of taking the ample olive branches they're being extended is simply juvenile. And that fact needs to be shouted out loud because we're trying to do something very difficult and dangerous to fix a hemorrhaging economy. We need the Republicans' help because this is the type of thing everyone needs to work together on.

JacksBlack: We can cut taxes, letting people keep what they've earned, and put off building new zoos and studying the mating habits of endangered birds until a more rational environment prevails.

news flash! If you're unemployed you already keep everything you've "earned".

Nebulious: And that fact needs to be shouted out loud because we're trying to do something very difficult and dangerous to fix a hemorrhaging economy. We need the Republicans' help because this is the type of thing everyone needs to work together on.

They can't do that, it will kill their support amongst 'the base.' You know this.

NewportBarGuy: One person who has a job buys things sustaining many other jobs?

Oh sweet, then we can give each unemployed person even more, or spend less to begin with. Thanks for the info, Cronkite!

Incidentally my math above doesn't take into account the fact that 2 - 2.5% of Americans do not work. Like, ever.

log_jammin: JacksBlack: We can cut taxes, letting people keep what they've earned, and put off building new zoos and studying the mating habits of endangered birds until a more rational environment prevails.

news flash! If you're unemployed you already keep everything you've "earned".

That's not really what I meant there, but you're smart so you know that.

What I meant is that if we let the American people keep $900,000,000,000 of their tax money (which would have the exact same financial effect as spending $900B we don't have), they would, oh I don't know, SPEND SOME OF IT! In the process they would keep their houses, patronize local businesses, and perhaps even participate in charitable giving.

JacksBlack: Oh sweet, then we can give each unemployed person even more, or spend less to begin with. Thanks for the info, Cronkite!

Incidentally my math above doesn't take into account the fact that 2 - 2.5% of Americans do not work. Like, ever.

You are living in an absolute world. Your "math" doesn't take into account jack or sh*t.

You are failing to understand that each temporary job creates 3 others, and you need to acknowledge that shiat, or you are just vomiting words.

Keep going with absolutes, it makes your FAIL so much more hysterical.

I would assume that Obama standing up and railing on the republicans 2 weeks in to his presidency is not where he wants to be. And, if the reports from the moderate democrats are true, it seems that Obama would like the congressional democrats be the ridiculous lefties so he can moderate and be the problem solver bringing the two extremes together.

I mean, I don't think it does him any good to stand up and push the congressional democrat's position. Let them do that.

JacksBlack: What I meant is that if we let the American people keep $900,000,000,000 of their tax money (which would have the exact same financial effect as spending $900B we don't have), they would, oh I don't know, SPEND SOME OF IT! In the process they would keep their houses, patronize local businesses, and perhaps even participate in charitable giving.

They'd also save much of it. And, the money they did spend would probably go to paying down debt or buying a new flat screen. It wouldn't really be run through the economy as well as targeted government spending.

JacksBlack: What I meant is that if we let the American people keep $900,000,000,000 of their tax money (which would have the exact same financial effect as spending $900B we don't have), they would, oh I don't know, SPEND SOME OF IT! In the process they would keep their houses, patronize local businesses, and perhaps even participate in charitable giving.

There is a great quote in the article that I think you missed.



The bursting of the housing bubble caused the current crisis, but the underlying problem began much earlier -- in the late 1970s, when median U.S. incomes began to stall. Because wages got hit then by the double-whammy of global competition and new technologies, the typical American family was able to maintain its living standard only if women went into the workforce in larger numbers, and later, only if everyone worked longer hours.

When even these coping mechanisms were exhausted, families went into debt -- a strategy that was viable as long as home values continued to rise. But when the housing bubble burst, families were no longer able to easily refinance and take out home-equity loans. The result: Americans no longer have the money to keep consuming. When you consider that consumers make up 70 percent of the economy, the magnitude of the problem becomes apparent.

What happened to the money? According to researchers Thomas Piketty and Emmanuel Saez, since the late 1970s, a greater and greater share of national income has gone to people at the top of the earnings ladder. As late as 1976, the richest 1 percent of the country took home about 9 percent of the total national income. By 2006, they were pocketing more than 20 percent. But the rich don't spend as much of their income as the middle class and the poor do -- after all, being rich means that you already have most of what you need. That's why the concentration of income at the top can lead to a big shortfall in overall demand and send the economy into a tailspin. (It's not coincidental that 1928 was the last time that the top 1 percent took home more than 20 percent of the nation's income.)

NewportBarGuy: You are failing to understand that each temporary job creates 3 others

I don't fail to understand it, dumbass. Do you for one minute think I'm actually suggesting we give unemployed people cash? Have you ever read anything I've written on TF? Put down the bong and get a grip on reality.

The United States government has revenues in excess of TWO TRILLION DOLLARS per year.

I've been advocating The 100% Tax Refund Act of 2009.

If you reported a gross income of $500,000 or less in the fiscal year 2008, you will get a 100% refund of your income tax withholdings, and/or your tax liabilities for 2008 will be removed from the books.

If you want to stimulate the economy, you give people their own money back. You don't take it and give it to someone else.

JacksBlack: You don't take it and give it to someone else.

um...your plan includes taking money from everybody that made over $500,000 and giving it to everybody else. I mean, did you notice that?

bulldg4life: JacksBlack: You don't take it and give it to someone else.

um...your plan includes taking money from everybody that made over $500,000 and giving it to everybody else. I mean, did you notice that?

Read the article we're discussing. As it so eloquently points out, rich people already have everything they could possibly want, and therefore, they don't spend money. And the $500k line in the sand is my own arbitrary number. I have a real job so I had to give up playing economist on the internet.

JacksBlack: Newflash guys. You can't polish a turd.

we can always depend on you to be the biggest troll with the least sensical ideas on any political thread. Please, keep it up.

JacksBlack: Any of you farking people ever consider that it's a piece of shiat bill?

Yes, I'm sure there are small parts of it that have been hyped by the right that you think are a piece of shiat. The rest of it you probably don't know a thing about.

But the frenzied whining of armchair experts who oppose this 90% on ideological grounds without even bothering to read 75% of what the bill contains, much less actually think about, isn't exactly the best way to judge this bill despite the opinions of so many otherwise.

The fact is that pretty much every serious economist who doesn't work for some ideological think-tank agrees that the type of stimulus this bill represents is not only wise, but necessary. No matter what form the bill takes, as long as it's created by human beings in an intensely partisan and high-pressure environment in government, small or even large parts of it WILL be controversial and every one of us will find fault with it.

That doesn't mean that doing nothing or just throwing our hands up and handing out more tax cuts because the Republicans won't allow anything else without throwing themselves on the ground and flailing their limbs in a tantrum is the preferable option.

But the bottom line, and the topic I'm trying to discuss, is that most of the people opposing this bill know almost nothing about it. Public attention has been successfully focused almost entirely on a small percentage of the policy proposals. And that's not because the information's not available - the entire thing is available online - that's because the Republicans have played their usual propaganda game and deliberately used the media to confuse engaged citizens regarding what's actually in it, what most experts say needs to be done, and what the alternatives are.

And that's a failure of Obama, the Democrats, the media, etc. for allowing right-wing talking points to absolutely dominate the debate; constantly allowing them to attack, attack, attack without punching back - just lamely blocking a blow here and there.

The Republicans know that they can win this as long as their viewpoint is seen as the "strong" one by the media due to the "virtue" of their aggression alone as long as that aggression isn't matched by the opposition, or isn't allowed to be matched by the media who blatantly favor aggressive tactics by Republicans and the right (see repeat solicited appearances by Coulter and the treatment of Limbaugh as a "serious" source on economic and political issues in the last two weeks).

Obama and the Dems have GOT to start going after the Republicans - working hard not just to defend their proposals, but to explain to the American people WHY the Republicans and the right are so opposed to them.

One without the other simply isn't enough in this media environment. Like it or not, people demand drama and conflict. And if you don't give them tasty bacon treats with their vegetables, they ain't gonna eat 'em.

JacksBlack: I don't fail to understand it, dumbass. Do you for one minute think I'm actually suggesting we give unemployed people cash? Have you ever read anything I've written on TF?

Yeah, you fail at understanding how to stimulate spending in this economy. Keep speaking, you sound exactly like the opposition who have no ideas. Carry on. Sally forth!

Every word you type throws another nail in the very ideology you hold as gospel. Enjoy.

Prospero424: Republicans

tl;dr

You're deluded. Something isn't going your way, so you conclude that the other side must be cheating. Stop and listen to yourself for a moment. Propaganda? I guess I need to re-state my original question since you never answered it. Have you even stopped to consider that the bill is shiat? Or is the mere fact that it's losing support evidence enough in your mind that the Republicans are somehow cheating?

Go look at the news this morning. You'll see how your President and your party are trying to gain more support for their pork bill; they're attempting to scare people.

What's that you said about propaganda?

darkhorse23: we can always depend on you to be the biggest troll with the least sensical ideas on any political thread. Please, keep it up.

Oh hey, you have some new pictures in your profile! You look great! Maybe that line of mine that you quoted was wrong, after all!

This thread is at 26 posts and it's already tl;dr.

Where's the witty snark, people?

Prospero424: I talked about this briefly in the big stimulus thread we had today, but I thought the issue was worthy of separate consideration.

These articles (along with the headline article) roughly explain my case:

How Obama must sell his recovery plan: Democrats have to get off defense...

Obama Losing Stimulus Fight to Defeated GOP

Basically, it seems that as long as Obama and the Dems keep ceding the Republicans exclusive rights to aggressive PR offense in the media (especially on economic and foreign policy matters), they're gonna keep getting outmaneuvered in a media environment only too eager to play to the bias they have for boosting aggressive right wingers (Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, etc.) while not-so-subtly looking down upon aggressive lefties and moderates.

You sound concerned.

I don't understand WHY Obama is even trying to reason with these animals. They're in the minority, you don't have to make nice with them. Why do Righties only whine about "bipartisan" politics when they want something?

What do you expect from Pelosi?

Where are the Democratic leaders in Congress out there championing this bill? Listen to the crickets chirp.

Obama's out there working for it. But I think the Congressional Democrats have done him a disservice. He at least seems pragmatic. I bet what he envisions for economic stimulus isn't that far removed from what the Republicans are talking about, and what more level-headed Democrats are talking about. (Think those that wouldn't be adored by the Daily Kos, Total Fark crowds.)

But because spending on pork comes as naturally to members of Congress as breathing, they can't resist it on even something so supposedly vital as this stimulus package. So Obama's left out there cheerleading for a conglomeration that even the most inattentive U.S. citizen recognizes has a little too much liberal Christmas tree element to it.

Fark you Republicans. Fark you in your hollow earholes. You had 8 farking years to do something and you did nothing! I take that back...you did WORSE than nothing, you actively made the problems worse. Now STFU and let adults being to fix the shait you broke

Oh for farks sake here we go again. I am sick and tired of the ideologues, mainly the farking republican party and its members lecturing me about fiscal responsibility. You mooks rolled over for eight years, caused the majority of the problems we are facing right now and your only solution is a failed concept - tax cuts to the rich. We are in a unique situation where 5 million Americans are jobless, banks are afraid to lend, and people aren't spending. This bill is going to be a trillion dollars, you idiots actually think there won't be any waste and mistakes while implementing it?


What Obama needs to understand is these Republicans aren't human beings, they are more like zoo animals and he needs to treat them as such. Point and laugh and their failed ideology and then administer his political intellect he showed on the stump , he has the pulpit, use it for god's sake. I am tired of these pussies in the Democratic party with their mouth open ready to fellate the Republicans. I saw that farking old mook Sen.Kit Bond on MSNBC spewing his regular wharragable and not a single democrat was available for a rebuttal. These idiots need to realize that Republicans aren't your audience its the people who voted you in.

So now we're advocating propaganda?

Here's an idea: write a farking bill that sells itself.

Of COURSE it has some pork in it - it's a freaking stimulus bill! It's all about pork. Because the fact is, you need some protein and fat in your diet. Right now everyone's living on just oatmeal.

MrEricSir: Where's the witty snark, people?

GaryPDX will pop in sometime in the morning. His snark is world famous!

Obama's trying to be bipartisan with people who'd piss on their own grandmothers if they thought they could blame it on teh evul libruls. To the republicans, the stimulus bill is nothing more than a way to stop Obama in his tracks and make him bleed. Their opposition has nothing to do with the relative merits of the bill, it's just a way of whipping up a frenzy with their base.

I'm Canadian; I have no dog in this fight other than that our economy depends on the American.

So as a non-participating but very affected bystander of this train wreck I ask a sincere question:

Has American politics and political commentary really sunk to NBA levels of style over substance? The Bush years were not great by any revisioning but the article goes on about how cats and dogs know that the Republicans are wrong--in face 90% of the article reads like an ad hominem attack. Are things so polarized now that there is no going back to rational disourse?

Prospero424: thomps: it is fairly interesting to see how badly obama's handled the pr for this issue considering how well he handled it throughout the election.

Exactly! It's really frustrating to see this from a team who's so obviously media-savvy.

Take a step back and look at it this way.

The current bailout bill is horrible. It can't be defended. The longer Democrats hold onto their version, the dumber they look.

SeismicJizzer: Oh for farks sake here we go again. I am sick and tired of the ideologues, mainly the farking republican party and its members lecturing me about fiscal responsibility. You mooks rolled over for eight years, caused the majority of the problems we are facing right now and your only solution is a failed concept - tax cuts to the rich. We are in a unique situation where 5 million Americans are jobless, banks are afraid to lend, and people aren't spending. This bill is going to be a trillion dollars, you idiots actually think there won't be any waste and mistakes while implementing it?

Self Loathe much or just content to be a hypocrate?


I am so sick and tired of Democrats talking about the stupidity of Republicans and then calling them the idiologues. You need to look in the mirror. The reason this bill is struggling has very little to do with Bam Bam and more to do with Pelosi; and did you really think she was capable of crafting a *good* bill?

This particular bill is shait and I hope it fails miserably unless some more stuff get's cut. Eventually people will realize that The New Deal didn't save us from the depression - foriegn countries buying our manufactured "Things that go boom" did.

But you know what, keep thinking the Repub's are the dumb one's while your tax cheating Dem's tell you Paying Taxes is Patriotic so that they can buy more condoms for inner city kids - you know, because making sure people can fark all they want without worries is the best way to stimulate the economy.

Argh2: Obama's trying to be bipartisan with people who'd piss on their own grandmothers if they thought they could blame it on teh evul libruls. To the republicans, the stimulus bill is nothing more than a way to stop Obama in his tracks and make him bleed. Their opposition has nothing to do with the relative merits of the bill, it's just a way of whipping up a frenzy with their base.

THIS

Keith Olbermann has been gone all week. Im sure when he gets back he will sort this all out. That David Shuster guys has no spin. His kung fu is no good against hannity and beck.

cancon: Are things so polarized now that there is no going back to rational discourse?

We can get back to it, but it won't happen overnight. For one, there's a fully mature outrage industry now that must be fed. Also, with the Republican party in disarray, there are countless opportunities for unscrupulous demagogues to carve out a power base.

The Democrats aren't in as great a shape as the numbers suggest, either. Pelosi and Reid aren't exactly strong, visionary leaders, and one of the drawbacks of electing an "outsider" for president is that he has no deep Washington power base to draw on. Besides, he's trying to play the nice guy for as long as he can. Obama can't offer bipartisanship from a weak hand - sadly, I think he has to play the old game and crush them first, and THEN be bipartisan. The election doesn't count.

CanisNoir: I am so sick and tired of Democrats talking about the stupidity of Republicans and then calling them the idiologues. You need to look in the mirror. The reason this bill is struggling has very little to do with Bam Bam and more to do with Pelosi; and did you really think she was capable of crafting a *good* bill?

you cry about being called names then half a sentance later call Obama "Bam-Bam"?

CanisNoir: But you know what, keep thinking the Repub's are the dumb one's while your tax cheating Dem's tell you Paying Taxes is Patriotic so that they can buy more condoms for inner city kids - you know, because making sure people can fark all they want without worries is the best way to stimulate the economy.

2/10

I think you're losing your touch. It's the butthurt, isn't it?

log_jammin: you cry about being called names then half a sentance later call Obama "Bam-Bam"?

I didn't cry about being called a name. I cried about the hypocracy; I mean the least you could do is own and admit to it.

You have a problem with me calling him Bam Bam? Or should I just call him Chimpy McHitlerbama?

whidbey: I think you're losing your touch. It's the butthurt, isn't it?

Not in the least, I just find it funny as all git out, that the Dem's load a "Stimulus" bill with all sorts of pork and handouts to specific partisan groups and when popular support starts to lag as those details come out, it's somehow the "Lying Republicans" to blame.

CanisNoir: I cried about the hypocracy

HA!

CanisNoir: it's somehow the "Lying Republicans" to blame.

weren't you the one who picked up on Rush's "porkulus package" comment and ran with it?

log_jammin: weren't you the one who picked up on Rush's "porkulus package" comment and ran with it?

I'm not the guilty one on that - though cumbersome as it is, the name fits.

log_jammin: MrEricSir: Where's the witty snark, people?

GaryPDX will pop in sometime in the morning. His snark is world famous!

Well so far this fine morning he is failing miserably.

Now a version of the bailout that would cause as much wailing or whining that has gone on so far should have looked like this:

1: You do not have a job?
2: Congratulations you are now in the army, gun or shovel?
3a: If they chose a gun they get sent to a war zone.
3b: If they chose a shovel they get sent to rebuild something here.
3c: If they chose neither, then they get no assistance work out out themself like the founding fathers did.

\ What a bunch of pansies the country has become since the civil war.

Remove all Republicans: That seems like rational discourse to me. Read this thread. Everyone knows that barely a few hundred thousand out of a $1 trillion could have possible concerns and yet the Republicans refuse to support it. It's a microcosm of the problem in California. Republicans refuse to accept that the solution for the future is always the same: more taxes AND more spending.

The government isn't going to get us out of a recession by just sitting around. Look at the last two recessions, under both Bushes. Did they just sit around or did they spend billions if not trillions to get our economy going?

In the end, the problem started in the 1980s with the Reagan tax cuts. They failed, and they continue to fail. We've starved the government forever and now, it's in a death kneel. We just cannot afford to have a government which doesn't take at least 80% of people's money a year. It just doesn't work.

Let's see if I can catch all of the trolling done in this.
1) "rational discourse" being ad hominem attacks
2) "1 trillion" - overstating the size of the package on purpose
3) purposely misstating "more taxes AND more spending"
4) comparison to Bushes!
5) overstating how much the government should take

I think I should catch more. Anyone else?

This is fun, it's like finding all the objects in one of those Highlights for Children puzzles.