Why is that scary Smitty? Hamas needs to be toppled. Anyone who doesn't agree with that is naieve at best.

On one hand, good. On the other hand, Bibi you're just a slicker, slightly more hawkish Tzipi Livni. The only way we'll get a reasonable government in power is if Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas, Ichud Leumi, Hatikva and HaBayis HaYehudi get a good deal of seats while Kadima and Labour are eaten away by Meretz and the arab parties.

Tatsuma: On one hand, good. On the other hand, Bibi you're just a slicker, slightly more hawkish Tzipi Livni. The only way we'll get a reasonable government in power is if Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas, Ichud Leumi, Hatikva and HaBayis HaYehudi get a good deal of seats while Kadima and Labour are eaten away by Meretz and the arab parties.

Gesundheit!

Tatsuma: Bibi you're just a slicker, slightly more hawkish Tzipi Livni. The only way we'll get a reasonable government in power is if Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas, Ichud Leumi, Hatikva and HaBayis HaYehudi get a good deal of seats while Kadima and Labour are eaten away by Meretz and the arab parties.

Yes, but can you say that three times fast?

For the left/aravim, Hadash/Balad/Ra'am-Ta'al all have 2 seats each, Meretz 8, Labour 17 and Kadima 21.

On the Religious/Right side, you've got Yisrael Beiteinu with 17 seats, Likud with 25, HaBayis HaYehudi with 2, Ichud Leumi 6, Shas 11 and UTJ 5

There are the pensioners who have 2, but I'm not sure if they should be classified with any side at all, since they would most likely accept any government seat they can get their hand on.

So, even if all the leftist and arab parties were to unite (and it's highly unlikely that they would, you'd have 53 (or 55) seat. And if there was a Religious/Right-Wing alliance, It would be 66 (or 68 seats), more than enough to have a stable coalition.

Bibi, however, said that he would do a deal with either Labour or Kadima, so that complicates matters further. There's also the risk that Yisrael Beiteinu, while quite right-wing on the arab issue, would ally with Kadima in order to have an even more powerful position in their government than they would with Bibi. They are pretty left-wing on most other issues and more in league with Kadima than Likud on many subjects. There's also the fact that Likud and Shas already have an agreement and Shas and YB hate each others.

It's going to be a pretty interesting 6 days...

LyriCa1z: Why is that scary Smitty? Hamas needs to be toppled. Anyone who doesn't agree with that is naieve at best.

And as a serious reply... has history vindicated your belief that you can bomb the Palestinians so hard that they'll stop shooting bottle rockets at Israel? Difficulty: without killing every last man, woman, and child.

Senescent Dawn: And as a serious reply... has history vindicated your belief that you can bomb the Palestinians so hard that they'll stop shooting bottle rockets at Israel? Difficulty: without killing every last man, woman, and child.

Actually, the last operation kinda did that, for the most part...

Senescent Dawn: Difficulty: without killing every last man, woman, and child.

Why?

How long till people realize that there are only two real paths to an end to all of this - either one side decides to be the adult and patiently endure a few hits without retaliation (even if it is over the course of a couple of generations) to move the process to peace, or one side or the other is completely and totally eliminated?

Since neither side is willing to take the lumps, the only other option is complete annihilation.

I am not advocating genocide over negotiation, I'm just saying that it has become clear that both sides are too myopic and too bent on revenge (ahem, punitive action) to actually manage any other kind of solution.

LyriCa1z: Why is that scary Smitty? Hamas needs to be toppled. Anyone who doesn't agree with that is naieve at best.

All the violent political regimes in the situation need to be toppled, including the Israeli government.

unlikely: I am not advocating genocide over negotiation, I'm just saying that it has become clear that both sides are too myopic and too bent on revenge (ahem, punitive action) to actually manage any other kind of solution.

A final solution, as it were?

7of7: All the violent political regimes in the situation need to be toppled, including the Israeli government.

Yes, because toppling a democracy defending itself is really the same as toppling a terrorist group or a dictatorship.

It's as retarded as saying we should topple Obama because there are still troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and strikes in Pakistan.

Senescent Dawn: A final solution, as it were?

That's what both groups are angling towards. They are both rapidly extremist-ing themselves out of other options.

monsters fighting animals. fark them both.

Tatsuma: 7of7: All the violent political regimes in the situation need to be toppled, including the Israeli government.

Yes, because toppling a democracy defending itself is really the same as toppling a terrorist group or a dictatorship.

It's as retarded as saying we should topple Obama because there are still troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and strikes in Pakistan.

Have you ever seen anything wrong with any of Israels policies? Ever?

fark Netanyahu. Zombie Itzhak Rabin frowns upon his murderer's continued influence in Israeli affairs.

Ahh, Netanyahu...proof that MIT doesn't always generate geniuses.

I wonder if it pisses him off that the architecture dept gets a shiatload of funding from the Aga Khan now.

adamgreeney: Have you ever seen anything wrong with any of Israels policies? Ever?

I'm a fierce critic of many Israeli policies. Come and sit around at our Shabbos and you'll hear me criticize many of Israel's action in the past or even today. However, in a sea of hatred, the last thing I want to do is to side with the anti-semites or virulent anti-zionists and give them ammo.

I'm from the Divrei Yoel/Yosef & his Brothers school of criticism of Israel: complain about the state as much as you want, but the second someone other than our people wants to come and join me/us, it's time to stop.

SherKhan: fark Netanyahu. Zombie Itzhak Rabin frowns upon his murderer's continued influence in Israeli affairs.

Zombie Rabin is probably too busy dealing with the heroic Israelis who died due to his barbaric orders during the Altalena affair when he ordered men who had surrendered and were swimming for their lives to be shot or dealing with all the victims from the Oslo process to be worried about Bibi.

PS the conspiracy theories claim that Shimon Peres was the one who orchestrated this, not Netanyahu.

Bonzo_1116: Ahh, Netanyahu...proof that MIT doesn't always generate geniuses.

I'm certainly not a Bibi fan, I'm a member of Likud (specifically Manhigut Yehudi) but I'm supporting Ichud Leumi this election. However, economically he's the reason Israel has been so well off and he's the one who stopped the insane policies of Labour before him.

Here's an article from Haaretz, circa 1997, entitled

Why We Hate Bibi

I walked up the street to buy a few things I needed for Shabbat, and on the wall near the delicatessen it said "Down with Bibi the detestable murderer." Then I opened my afternoon paper and there, on the news page, where they put the facts, it said that Bibi has no G-d. That everyone knows that Bibi has no G-d. So I scanned the inside pages, with the oversize advertisements taken out by my camp - the camp of the Sons of Light. The ads said the prime minister was traitorous, that he was not a human being. Then I looked up from the newspaper and glanced at the wall across the street where people post announcements. I saw a dozen beautifully designed posters, from my camp, the peace camp. "We will not forget and we will not forgive", said the posters. "We will not forget (the murder victim) and we will not forgive (the murderer)," said my camp, the peace camp.

I asked myself what was going on here. What exactly had led to this lynch atmosphere? Why do our editorial pages read like an endless string of summary verdicts? Why do our feature pages seem like a series of firing squads all aimed in one direction? What is it that ushered in the wild, impassioned, "kill the beast" atmosphere of bloodletting that is so prevalent in our streets and among our friends? How is it that upstanding citizens, who normally exhibit a good, healthy dose of skepticism, have mutated and now bare their teeth with violently totalitarian self-assurance? And how did it come to pass that decent, humane people are willingly taking part in the process of demonization, unabashedly fanning the flames of hatred for Benjamin Netanyahu?

Only then did I begin to understood that there were two distinct phenomena here. One is Netanyahu himself, and the other is hatred of Netanyahu, a crusade that is gradually taking center stage in our lives. I decided to ask myself the simplest question of all: Why is it that we hate Benjamin Netanyahu so much?

Is it because our security situation has reached unprecedented lows during his tenure? Is it because over 200 people have been killed in our streets and our buses and our shopping centers?

Oops, wrong government. All this happened while Yitzhak Rabin and Shimon Peres were in charge. At the time, we just kept quiet. We didn't think it was so terrible. We, who now hate Netanyahu so much, never even considered the idea of hating Rabin and Peres because of their responsibility for the bloodshed.

So do we hate Benjamin Netanyahu because he is a brutal prime minister who used massive military force to achieve strategic objectives, forcing hundreds of thousands of people out of their homes? Do we hate Netanyahu because he bears ministerial responsibility for the warfare that caused the deaths of dozens of innocent victims?

Oops again. It was Yitzhak Rabin who used massive force during Operation Accountability to achieve strategic objectives, forcing hundreds of thousands of Lebanese civilians from their homes. And it is Shimon Peres who bears direct ministerial responsibility for the policies that led to the mass killings of innocent victims during Operation Grapes of Wrath in Lebanon in 1996. At the time, we simply kept quiet. We didn't think the brutality was so horrendous. We, who now hate Netanyahu so much, never considered hating Rabin and Peres for their responsibility for the brutality.

So do we hate Benjamin Netanyahu because during his administration the social gaps in Israel grew to unprecedented heights, and human rights legislation came to a halt, and residents of the territories were subjected to a cruel closure policy, and hundreds were deported without trial in the middle of the night?

Oops. That happened in the last government too. Yet we remained silent. We did not think that the injustices were so intolerable. We, who now hate Netanyahu so much, never considered hating Rabin and Peres for their responsibility for these acts of injustice.

So, do we hate Benjamin Netanyahu because his government hastily and recklessly adopted irreversible historic decisions with blatant disregard for proper procedure, not bothering to take account of the feelings of half the country, only bothering to receive Knesset approval after the fact?

Oops. That would be the Rabin and Peres governments. As for ourselves, we simply remained silent. We did not feel that proper procedure and fair democratic rules and proper public debate were so important. We, who hate Netanyahu so much because he is forcing his worldview upon us, did not even consider hating Rabin and Peres for the patronizing manner in which they pushed through such a fateful historic decision, forcing their worldview upon the entire Israeli public.

So the question remains. Why do we hate Benjamin Netanyahu so much? After all, as of December 25, 1997, Benjamin Netanyahu has not made a single move that might be interpreted as improper use of force. Benjamin Netanyahu has not taken a single action that might be considered a war crime. Benjamin Netanyahu bears responsibility for less bloodshed and less harm to human rights than the two patrons of peace who occupied the prime minister's chair before him. So why do we hate him so much?

The story which we like to tell ourselves is that we hate Binyamin Netanyahu because of the very dramatic evidence which has amassed against him: Liberman, Bar-On, the Tunnel, Mash'al, the-Left-has-forgotten-what-it-is-to-be-Jewish and being two-faced at the Likud convention. But if we stop for a moment, if we are honest with ourselves for a moment, we will be forced to admit that this story, which we are trying to tell ourselves, doesn't hold water. Because even though almost all of these validly warrant criticism, and frequently sharp criticism, of Netanyahu, almost all of them don't justify or explain the deep hatred for him.

After all, for each of these things there is something just as dramatic during the period of the previous administration. For the investigated Liberman there is the investigated Sheves, for the Shas pal Attorney General Bar On there was family friend Attorney General Ben Yair. For the mistake of the Tunnel there is the Temple Mount mistake of Peres, for the fiasco in Amman there are the Mossad fiascos in Lillehammer and London. Against the the-Left-has-forgotten-what-it-is-to-be-Jewish (said not for publication by Netanyahu and received wide publication) there is what-stupid-Arabs-these-are (said by Peres for publication but not published at all), and against Netanyahu's two-faced position regarding Likud primaries there is the no less serious two-facedness of Yitzhak Rabin on the matter of the Labor Party, Chaim Ramon and the Histadrut.]

One possible answer: Benjamin Netanyahu unravels the stitching that binds our obligations as members of a democracy and our obligations as peace supporters.

A few words of explanation are in order: One of the biggest problems of the Israeli democratic model is the problem of dual roles played by its elite class. The same people who fill the ranks of the peace elite also fill the ranks of the democratic-process elite. Yet because these two publics draw from the same demographic pool - those who are committed to the idea of peace in its radical-dovish version are the same journalists, jurists and academics who dictate civil and judicial norms - a situation has evolved whereby the members of one particular camp are forced to wear three or four hats: they play on one of the competing teams, they serve as the referee for the competing groups, and they report and comment on the game between the competing teams.

This scenario is fundamentally unethical and untenable. The only way that we members of the elite can withstand the challenge is by building a sort of internal Great Chinese Wall, which would maintain an absolute division between our contrasting missions. Here and there, attempts have been made to build this Great Wall. However, since the 1992 elections - since we began to feel that the majority was on our side, since we began to think we had a chance to throw our opponents onto the trash heap of history - all the lines of demarcation have been blurred. Instead of constituting a normative elite we have become just another one of the savage tribes inhabiting this land. Step by step, we have lost the ability of self-criticism, lost any sense of good taste and shame. We no longer hesitate to use whatever influence we can muster as referees, reporters and commentators to influence the results of the game in our favor. We will do whatever it takes - Chinese Wall be damned - to ensure our final victory. To vanquish, once and for all, the Sons of Darkness on the opposing team.

Yet despite these efforts - despite our determination not to hold an open democratic referendum on the question of peace, opting instead to make it a retroactive vote on facts that had already been set in motion - the moment of truth came. And when the long-overdue plebiscite on the peace process was finally held on May 29, 1996, the Israeli public told us no. The Israeli public said Netanyahu.

Thus, for us, for the enlightened elite, since the morning of May 30, we have been forced to contend with a situation we could not control. On the one hand, wearing our hat as the democratic elite, we well understood that the people had had their say. And the word of the people is final. As members of a democracy, we knew that government policy would reflect the will of the majority.

But on the other hand, when we put on our peace elite hat, it is obvious that we cannot accept the voter's verdict at face value. We expect that despite the decision of the voter, Netanyahu will continue to implement our peace policies. We expect him to betray his and his voters' own sensibilities.

After all, despite the fact that we strut around wearing our liberal plumage, we have no doubts at all regarding the justice of our cause. Like Gush Emunim and Neturei Karta, it is crystal clear to us that our truth is the only authentic truth. And since the questions on the table have to do with peace and war, life and death, we find it unacceptable that they be decided by an Israeli voting public that is, as we all know, not entirely serious and not entirely rational, not entirely secular and not at all white.

The mechanism we have developed to work our way out of this tangle is to work up a psychosis of hatred for the elected prime minister. To hate him and hate his wife and hate his children. And while we revel in this hatred of all things Bibi, we will feel no compunctions as we trample every cultural norm and every basic concept of fairness.

We will convince ourselves that the prime minister is the devil incarnate. That he is an alien being who by some fraudulent scheme seized hold of the reins of power. He murdered and then he seized power.

But there is a deeper motive for the hatred we feel for Benjamin Netanyahu. Here too some background is called for: In the early 90's, and especially the spring and summer of 1992, the autumn and winter of 1993, and the spring and autumn of 1994, we, the enlightened Israelis, were infected with a messianic craze. Almost without noticing it, our peace movement, which had always been so rational and sober, full of phlegmatic reserve, began to whirl itself into an ecstatic Kabbalistic dervish trance. All of a sudden, we believed that the great global changes underway at the end of the millennium were signaling us that the end of the old Middle East was near. The end of history, the end of wars, the end of the conflict. Like the members of any other messianic movement, we decided to hasten the end, and anointed Yitzhak Rabin as our Messiah.

Yitzhak Rabin was a demonstratively un-messianic person. But for that very reason, because of his reserve and his decency, he was just right for the role we carved out for him. No one could ever suspect Rabin of charlatanism. Meanwhile, we began to pitch our tents around him, dancing around and demanding that he perform miracles for us. That he make a Western Europe out of the Middle East. That he fashion us a Norway out of the Land of Israel and Palestine. Yitzhak Rabin stood there, blushing and embarrassed, knowing that there was something a little suspicious about all the commotion being made, that our apocalyptic prognostications had gone too far. Yet the reveling around Baba Rabin went on. He let it continue, not wanting to disappoint us. He saw how excited we were, and thought why not? Maybe it will work.

But even then, back in the autumn of 1993, Netanyahu was the naysayer. The heretic. Even then he did not raise his voice and did not yell. He'd travel alone from village to village and town to town, repeating in his cool, unemotional voice and stern gaze that we were intoxicated with the fantasy. That we were humiliating ourselves, making a joke of ourselves.

In the beginning, during the first months, Netanyahu did not bother us too much. He was marginal, practically an eccentric. He was a tree falling in the woods with no one to hear it.

But gradually, it became clear that the scenario was not as straightforward as we had believed it would be, that there was something a bit more complex going on here, that there were still loose strings having to do with identity, history and culture, fundamental existential problems.

Benjamin Netanyahu began to annoy us more and more. The more reality pushed aside our ecstatic mirage of the oasis in the desert, which had enraptured us to the point of sensory overload, the more Benjamin Netanyahu annoyed us. To the point that when reality finally rushed in, when terrorism struck and Yitzhak Rabin was murdered and we found ourselves once again part of the cruel and complex history from which we thought we had extricated ourselves, it was obvious to us who was to blame. The naysayer was to blame. The Judas Iscariot was to blame. The murderer of the Messiah was to blame.

When all is said and done, the truth is that we hate Benjamin Netanyahu so much because the hatred makes life easier for us. Because this hatred responds to our deepest emotional needs. Because hatred of Netanyahu saves us from having to deal with our own internal contradictions and errors. And because hatred of Netanyahu enables us to conveniently forget that before the bubble burst, we had acted like fools. We fooled ourselves with illusions. We were bedazzled into committing a collective act of messianic drunkenness.

Hatred of Netanyahu also gives us a chance to forget that it was not the rise of Netanyahu that brought on the paralysis of Oslo but the paralysis of Oslo that brought on the rise of Netanyahu. The hatred permits us to keep harboring the notion that everything is really much more simple, that if we only pull back, if we only recognize Palestinian statehood.... The hatred lets us divert our attention from the renewed strength of the Egyptian army, from the pinpoint accuracy of the Syrian missiles, from the Iraqi anthrax and from the Iranian nuclear program. Thanks to our hatred of Netanyahu, we can convince ourselves that if we only beat up our prime minister a little harder, if we could only manage to break his political bones, if we could only vanquish him and get him out of our lives, then everything would revert to the simple, sweet life that once was. Once again, like in the spring and summer of 1992, and the autumn and winter of 1993, we would be able to breath in that exhilarating, heady aroma of the end of history, the end of wars, the end of the conflict. The intoxicating taste of the end of days.

Tatsuma: adamgreeney: Have you ever seen anything wrong with any of Israels policies? Ever?

I'm a fierce critic of many Israeli policies. Come and sit around at our Shabbos and you'll hear me criticize many of Israel's action in the past or even today. However, in a sea of hatred, the last thing I want to do is to side with the anti-semites or virulent anti-zionists and give them ammo.

I'm from the Divrei Yoel/Yosef & his Brothers school of criticism of Israel: complain about the state as much as you want, but the second someone other than our people wants to come and join me/us, it's time to stop.

So no one is allowed to question Israel? That's a little militant of you. Very close to the people that are trying to kill you. . . Interesting.

I don't think they are wrong for striking back at Hamas, i just think the policies they have in place dealing with Gaza are far to strict and breed far more hatred than you realize.

Tatsuma: On one hand, good. On the other hand, Bibi you're just a slicker, slightly more hawkish Tzipi Livni. The only way we'll get a reasonable government in power is if Yisrael Beiteinu, Shas, Ichud Leumi, Hatikva and HaBayis HaYehudi get a good deal of seats while Kadima and Labour are eaten away by Meretz and the arab parties.

*Scratches head and leaves*

adamgreeney:
So no one is allowed to question Israel? That's a little militant of you. Very close to the people that are trying to kill you. . . Interesting.

Of course people are allowed to criticize Israel. I just said that I do so myself, quite virulently on certain subjects as well. However, there is legitimate criticism, and there is anti-semitism, and when I see the latter rearing its head, I'm not going to partake in the former.

I explained my position and why I seem to be defending Israel on everything. Some people, because of because of this, interpolate that I do not think Israel has ever done anything wrong, which is not the case.

Tatsuma: adamgreeney:
So no one is allowed to question Israel? That's a little militant of you. Very close to the people that are trying to kill you. . . Interesting.

Of course people are allowed to criticize Israel. I just said that I do so myself, quite virulently on certain subjects as well. However, there is legitimate criticism, and there is anti-semitism, and when I see the latter rearing its head, I'm not going to partake in the former.

I explained my position and why I seem to be defending Israel on everything. Some people, because of because of this, interpolate that I do not think Israel has ever done anything wrong, which is not the case.

Well, to your credit, in these threads you tend to be a very professional poster and I read a lot of your links. i just hate Israeli policy towards Gaza for the most part. I do think them kicking the crap out of Hamas would be a good think for everyone though.

adamgreeney: i just hate Israeli policy towards Gaza for the most part. I do think them kicking the crap out of Hamas would be a good think for everyone though.

I think it's sad that Fatah sucks so hard even Hamas looks more capable to the average Gazan.

Tatsuma
Nice info on the Bibi. So essentially he's just lame enough to be a magnet for wordless rage/sadness/dissapointment that it didn't work out inthe mid '90's? At least in 1997...what are folks saying there today? Think he'll eventually get a Nixonian buff and polish?

Bonzo_1116: adamgreeney: i just hate Israeli policy towards Gaza for the most part. I do think them kicking the crap out of Hamas would be a good think for everyone though.

I think it's sad that Fatah sucks so hard even Hamas looks more capable to the average Gazan.

Tatsuma
Nice info on the Bibi. So essentially he's just lame enough to be a magnet for wordless rage/sadness/dissapointment that it didn't work out inthe mid '90's? At least in 1997...what are folks saying there today? Think he'll eventually get a Nixonian buff and polish?

True. Good thing we don't have two equally failing parties in our country to choose from. . . Oh shiat.

He said that? That's a coincidence - Hamas has said the same thing about Israel!

Why are we worrying about Israel again?

Double digit unemployment, tens of millions without healthcare, 500,000 jobs being lost every week.

What are we talking about Israel for? We've got our own shiat to worry about.

Third Day Mark: Why are we worrying about Israel again?

Double digit unemployment, tens of millions without healthcare, 500,000 jobs being lost every week.

What are we talking about Israel for? We've got our own shiat to worry about.

I thought it was 500 million monthly, like Rep. Pelosi said.

I'm just hoping the solders on both sides who murdered civies during the engagement are punished for it.

It's doubtful though. Israel will sweep their crimes under the rug and the Pali's are ether already dead or Hamas is powerless to stop them.

Great, because going into Gaza is obviously going to destroy them once and for all... until the innocent victims' families decide to join up, and Israel has an even bigger enemy on its hands.

Tatsuma: adamgreeney: Have you ever seen anything wrong with any of Israels policies? Ever?

I'm a fierce critic of many Israeli policies. Come and sit around at our Shabbos and you'll hear me criticize many of Israel's action in the past or even today. However, in a sea of hatred, the last thing I want to do is to side with the anti-semites or virulent anti-zionists and give them ammo.

I'm from the Divrei Yoel/Yosef & his Brothers school of criticism of Israel: complain about the state as much as you want, but the second someone other than our people wants to come and join me/us, it's time to stop.


You're a twat.

Tatsuma
It's as retarded as saying we should topple Obama because there are still troops in Iraq, Afghanistan and strikes in Pakistan.

You assume that's retarded.

I've always been a Labor man myself...but thank God Likud is going to do something for Israel this time around. If I could, I'd be willing to help Bibi out.

Smacky the Frog: You're a twat.

You're a twat. What I assume Tat's is trying to say is that Jewish politics is Jewish politics. I support this. This is just me, but if you aren't in the family, stay out of the family politics.

unlikely
How long till people realize that there are only two real paths to an end to all of this - either one side decides to be the adult and patiently endure a few hits without retaliation (even if it is over the course of a couple of generations) to move the process to peace, or one side or the other is completely and totally eliminated?

Or, the UN would actually y'know ENFORCE some of its declarations- break the blockade, evict the settlers...

HA HA HA
i made a joke.

or maybe some sanctions, just some little ones, is that impossible?

ChopSueyKS
You're a twat. What I assume Tat's is trying to say is that Jewish politics is Jewish politics. I support this. This is just me, but if you aren't in the family, stay out of the family politics.

I want my $3-6 Billion and unconditional support in the UN back, then.

ChopSueyKS: Smacky the Frog: You're a twat.

You're a twat. What I assume Tat's is trying to say is that Jewish politics is Jewish politics. I support this. This is just me, but if you aren't in the family, stay out of the family politics.

So when Adolf Hitler ordered the Jews to be murdered in Western Europe, the rest of the world should have shut up and not make any commentary or plea about German politics, since they weren't German states?

You wanna know why he's the frontrunner? Because they are insecure with Obama being the President. It's called a reaction, as in reactionary. Now what do you think happens after Bebe gets elected? Iran's going to farking get attacked that's what. Then the shiat will hit and Obama and Charlie Rangel are coming for you or your kids. Neat, huh. Nothing would please me more than to see the young cockbites who voted for this risky plan (Obama and the weak as water democrats) have to suffer at the hands of their insolence and misguidedness.

Nobody messes with Ron Artest when he's going for the ball and nobody messes with Dick Cheney when says fark you to a foreign adversary. Obama? Iran and the rest of them are going to make him crawl on glass with an apology. And he'll do it. Jimmy Carter shamed us and made us reactionary. This guy is going to do what Carter did times 10. Not good because Carter's farking poor leadership beget Reagan. Obama begets ?

Tatsuma: Of course people are allowed to criticize Israel. I just said that I do so myself, quite virulently on certain subjects as well. However, there is legitimate criticism, and there is anti-semitism, and when I see the latter rearing its head, I'm not going to partake in the former.

I explained my position and why I seem to be defending Israel on everything. Some people, because of because of this, interpolate that I do not think Israel has ever done anything wrong, which is not the case.

So you criticize your country plenty, just not when people are around who might mix accurate criticisms of Israel in with the shenanigans of anti-semitism? Don't you realize all that does is make more reasonable people see those defending Israel as every bit as crazy and blind to reality as those attacking it?

Maybe the catholics from the other day's thread criticize their wayward bishops plenty, just not when people who might hate on catholicism are around. Its about the same thing. It serves the opposite purpose of what you think it does, and if enough people take that attitude publicly it is only going to increase animosity toward Israel.

When speaking publicly to a group of people if you refuse to acknowledge that even one point that goes against Israel could possibly have substance it invalidates all the good points you could make in favor of Israel: your honesty and ability to think without bias comes into question. It doesn't matter if you are honest with your friends behind closed doors when no outsiders are around or not.

ChopSueyKS: Smacky the Frog: You're a twat.

You're a twat. What I assume Tat's is trying to say is that Jewish politics is Jewish politics. I support this. This is just me, but if you aren't in the family, stay out of the family politics.

Your actions don't exist in a bubble (twat). You are affecting geopolitics. The business is not yours. We are all citizens of the world. And you're f*ing with stability.

RanDomino: I want my $3-6 Billion and unconditional support in the UN back, then.

"Unconditional" is a big word. The US gains much more than I think you know from supporting Israel. Much of the American security, technology, etc, comes from supporting Israel. You act like it just goes into a black hole...far from it. US gives money to Israel by way of loans and military grants, Israel spends that money on American weapons thus puts the money back into the American economy. It also spends that money on developing new weapons and defense systems that America then benifits from both in the region and at home. Israel takes care of the day to day intelligence that the US can't do. That isn't free money you are giving away, it's for a service. All I ask is that you withdraw that support of yours when Israel stops acting in America's interest and leave the day to day affairs of Israel in Israeli hands.

ChopSueyKS: Smacky the Frog: You're a twat.

You're a twat. What I assume Tat's is trying to say is that Jewish politics is Jewish politics. I support this. This is just me, but if you aren't in the family, stay out of the family politics.

That would hold more weight if Tats stayed out of American politics, or if American politics weren't strongly tied to Israeli politics. I certainly do have a right to criticize and comment on what a country does with my tax dollars subsidizing its military. If we aren't enough of your family to discuss politics with you, then kindly lobby for Israel to cut ties with America altogether.

That isn't the result I WANT to happen, but if all of Israel felt like you did that you are your own special family and you can dabble in our politics as much as you like but we can't dabble in yours, wtf else should happen?

NobleHam: Great, because going into Gaza is obviously going to destroy them once and for all... until the innocent victims' families decide to join up, and Israel has an even bigger enemy on its hands.

This.

For arguments sake, let's say that Hamas was destroyed. By destroyed (no Godwin intendended)I mean like the Nazi Party in Germany was destroyed. Destroyed to the point where even claiming association with Hamas, or spreading Hamas-related documentation is a criminal offence under Palistinian law...

Will hatred, resentment and violent retribution against Israel by the people living in Gazza stop?

Will political rivals such as al-jabhah al-dīmūqrātiyyah li-tahrīr filastīn, al-jabhah al-sha`biyyah li-tahrīr filastīn or the Palestinian Popular Struggle Front fill in the power vacume?

Will such vacume be filled by moderates or militants? Which will appeal more to people who have next to nothing to live for or look forward to?

Pacification is an artform. There needs to be a great incentive for an "occupied" people to not lash out against the ruling state.

Whether Israel wants to admit it, or able to enforce it, they own Gaza. Regardless of whether the people who live in Gaza have their own system of government or their own laws, Gaza is not a soverign nation. It is a walled up micro-state, where all responcibility has been handed to the populous, with any ability to self-determine themeselves still being controlled by the master-state.

Long story short, Israel is totally creating more people that want to kill the fark out of them, even if these people do not claim to be "Hamas".

It seems that Israel is really gearing up towards a no state solution. This option is not popular in the international community, so they seem to be saying one thing but doing the other.

/ drunk, un-educated, etc.

Smacky the Frog: Your actions don't exist in a bubble (twat). You are affecting geopolitics. The business is not yours. We are all citizens of the world. And you're f*ing with stability.

There is more in an election than foreign policy. Likud has taken charge lately on much more than what you are interested in or what suits your iterests. Don't expect the Israelis to change their mind on what you want and your own interests. They have a state to run and the outside world comes in second. They aren't going to give up internal stability so you can have a feel good prime minister in charge.

The true solution will to isolate what makes palestinians 'palestinian'. That is to say, locate this elusive gene and create a parasite or virus to sterilize or even end their wretched lives. Peaceful, and using Western capabilities to the fullest extent.

ChopSueyKS: Smacky the Frog: Your actions don't exist in a bubble (twat). You are affecting geopolitics. The business is not yours. We are all citizens of the world. And you're f*ing with stability.

There is more in an election than foreign policy. Likud has taken charge lately on much more than what you are interested in or what suits your iterests. Don't expect the Israelis to change their mind on what you want and your own interests. They have a state to run and the outside world comes in second. They aren't going to give up internal stability so you can have a feel good prime minister in charge.

Quack quack quack.

P1: "Are you Jewish?"
P2: "No."
P1: "Then fark off. Your opinion doesn't count."

Good lord, what's wrong with these people?

All this tough talk reminds me of the Republican primary race; "I'd double Guantanamo!" and the like.

Israel: more trouble than it's worth.

If this guy is elected there's going to be a shiat storm in the middle east.

And it won't be between Israel and Gaza.


/Came for the anti-semitic lingo
// leaving unimpressed

Softens_hands_while_you_do_the_dishes: You wanna know why he's the frontrunner? Because they are insecure with Obama being the President. It's called a reaction, as in reactionary. Now what do you think happens after Bebe gets elected? Iran's going to farking get attacked that's what. Then the shiat will hit and Obama and Charlie Rangel are coming for you or your kids. Neat, huh. Nothing would please me more than to see the young cockbites who voted for this risky plan (Obama and the weak as water democrats) have to suffer at the hands of their insolence and misguidedness.

Nobody messes with Ron Artest when he's going for the ball and nobody messes with Dick Cheney when says fark you to a foreign adversary. Obama? Iran and the rest of them are going to make him crawl on glass with an apology. And he'll do it. Jimmy Carter shamed us and made us reactionary. This guy is going to do what Carter did times 10. Not good because Carter's farking poor leadership beget Reagan. Obama begets ?

Those "popcorn" buds are really pretty strong, and you shouldn't be mixing them with Robitussin.

Oh good, can we bomb some more schools and hospitals then?