Good call. Some will disagree believing that if only one side is shooting, then it's not a war. I disagree.

I've got to go with Olmert here (ugh.) and point out that by being "proportionate" and not finishing the job the first time, this only means that Israel will once again enter Azza in the future, that Hamas will have learned from its fault and be more efficient, and this will end up killing much more of the civilians they hid behind of.

bearsfolks: Good call. Some will disagree believing that if only one side is shooting, then it's not a war. I disagree.

Don't act like Israel hasn't been shooting either. There have been routine bombings in south Gaza. It can be argued that they are trying to cripple the smuggling routes, but on the other hand a cease fire is a CEASE fire.

I am not defending Hamas. They are a dangerous and essentially wortheless group. However, I can not stand by and nod in agreement to Israel's heavy handed tactics. One bombs, the other fights back, the other bombs. One shoots rockets, the other bombs, the other shoots rockets.

This is one time I may actually condone torture. Have a third party bring both sides to the table, and if either side turns violent, take a member or members of senior leadership to be tormented, tortured, or even killed. If you don't like it, sit at the bargaining table. If either side wants to attack the other, suffer three-fold.

Heard on NPR that Hamas has not declared responsibility for these rockets. Also heard that there were no casualties.

Tatsuma: and not finishing the job the first time,

First off, welcome back. I hope everything is going well for you.

Secondly, what would be considered finishing the job? How would that be achieved through a disproportionate attack?

/honestly, I know very little about this, I may be way off.

cameroncrazy1984: Heard on NPR that Hamas has not declared responsibility for these rockets. Also heard that there were no casualties.

Some of them are Hamas, Fatah has declared responsibility for others.

3 injured in mortar attacks

If you want accurate news about Israel, drop NPR and check Israeli media instead.

Tatsuma: check Israeli media instead.

Yeah, because for both sides of the story I want to check out media from the place that barred international reporters from Gaza. We'll see what the BBC says.

Wait, now the response is going to be disproportionate? What the hell was the last attack then?

GAT_00: Wait, now the response is going to be disproportionate? What the hell was the last attack then?

According to the Israelis, measured and calm.farking mess, this is.

cameroncrazy1984: farking mess, this is.

Yeah it is. Oh, and since you said you use the BBC, you should know that the Beeb hates Israel, which I suspect dates to the anti-British revolts of post-WWII.

GAT_00: Yeah it is. Oh, and since you said you use the BBC, you should know that the Beeb hates Israel, which I suspect dates to the anti-British revolts of post-WWII.

It's also important to note that the BBC was pro Ayatollah and his movement back when he was in Europe and the Shah was still in power.

Persepolis: First off, welcome back. I hope everything is going well for you.

Cheers, good to see you as well.

Secondly, what would be considered finishing the job? How would that be achieved through a disproportionate attack?

Well finishing the job would have involved ground troops entering Azza and fighting in order to uproot Hamas. Unlike Hizbullah, this is something that could have been done. The strip is much smaller than Northern Lebanon and Israel has the power to do it, it just refrained from doing so (Mostly because of Barak, Barack and Tzipi).
----

By the way, you might see a quote of me bandied around that goes: "I'd rather talk to Rush Limbaugh than any Iranian, because I appreciate not being shot or stabbed, frankly."

Now, not only is it completely removed from context (italics), but it also cuts a very important part of the post. Here is the discussion in context:

Lando Lincoln: I'd much rather talk to any Iranian than Rush Limbaugh, so him and I see eye-to-eye on this one. There's a better chance of having a productive conversation with those guys.
Tatsuma: I'd rather talk to Rush Limbaugh than any Iranian, because I appreciate not being shot or stabbed, frankly.
/Basij, Republican Guard and all that.

At the time, everyone understood that I didn't mean it as "all Iranians are bloodthirsty and want to kill Jews and Westerners" but rather as "It's ridiculous to say you'd talk to any Iranians over Rush Limbaugh, since there are extremists in that society who are much more worse than him". It even devolved into a discussion whether Limbaugh fans are comparable to the Basij and the Republican Guard.

At some point, I went to bed, then the thread went to shiat with a few people claiming this was an actual racist statement, so I woke up the next day and clarified it further:

Tatsuma: How on earth are you interpreting my comments about how not all iranians are puppy-loving clouds of fluffy gentleness; that some of them are nasty extremists who would kill me or people like me if they could into a racist statement?!

This applies to pretty much EVERY country on earth.

I don't see anyone who's calling Rush fans dangerous extremists, what's the difference between that and my Basij comment??

Others actually defended me and pointed out that making this into a racist statement was a gross distortion of what I said.

I admit it was expressed in a clumsy fashion. When written down it was a more ambiguous statement than out loud with facial, vocal and physical expression that left no place for doubt. I tried to mirror the sentence of Lando and reverse to point out it was ridiculous to say that you'd talk to just any Iranian over Rush Limbaugh and you'd have more chance to have a sensible discussion, since he's not exactly the worst person on earth since Stalin as some make him out to be.

Just wanted to go right ahead and clear that up with you so you wouldn't have the wrong idea based on these distortions of what I said. Even though we've had some frictions in the past, it doesn't change the fact that I really like you, and I really like Persia/Persians as a whole and I'm distressed over the political situation between Israel and the government of Iran, and I only wish the people would free themselves from the yoke of these tyrants.

/sorry for the long addendum, but as I said I really like you so I really wanted to make sure you wouldn't misinterpret what I said.

cameroncrazy1984: Yeah, because for both sides of the story I want to check out media from the place that barred international reporters from Gaza. We'll see what the BBC says.

They could have gone through the border on their own if they had wanted to, the Israeli army would not have arrested them or gone after them, they never have.

PS: Go to al-Haaretz's website, they might hate the Israeli government even more than you do. At least a good deal of their editorial staff does.

Tatsuma: "I'd rather talk to Rush Limbaugh than any Iranian, because I appreciate not being shot or stabbed, frankly."

Dude... you're making it so hard for me. I had a real hard time putting the last one to rest. Since it's been so long since you been on the board, I've wanted to let bygones be bygones, but you're making it real tough.

I'm going to stay clear of this thread and enjoy the superbowl, but please tone it down dude.

That phrase, the "any Iranian" part is pretty damn specific.

Again, I'll need time with this. I'll see you later.

Upon hearing this some stupid farker in Gaza is going to shoot more rockets into Israel. Then they're going to run crying to the U.N. when the IDF blasts the shiat out of them.

/fark 'em
//"If they hadn't done what I told 'em not to do, they'd still be alive."

Persepolis:

The only problem with that sentence is that I mirrored his sentenced perfectly instead of modifying it with "just any" instead of "any". I clearly didn't mean all Iranians. Dammit.

For that matter, I just wouldn't want to speak with any Israeli or any American because I could end up being stabbed or shot as well. Even any Jew, sadly.

but please tone it down dude.

I know, I know, as I said it was very clumsily written. To my defense, I don't have anything against Persians, I've told you so many times in the past how much I love Persia (second favorite country historically after Israel) and Persians (and mourn the days when we got along great. It's not just me, even in the Gemara there is high praise for them). That's why, when I wrote that sentence, I in no way saw anything that could be interpreted as a bigoted statement, because bigotry is so far from my mind when I think about Persia/Persians. There's a clear distinction in my mind between the government of Iran and the people they subjugate.

Try to reread what I wrote, but instead of Iranians, read it as Frenchmen. And Garde Républicaine.

Dammit.

Cog: Upon hearing this some stupid farker in Gaza is going to shoot more rockets into Israel. Then they're going to run crying to the U.N. when the IDF blasts the shiat out of them.

It's already happened. Fatah fired a missile at Israel this morning and later Abu Mazen went on tv to complain that Israel uses rocket attacks as an excuse to attack Azza.

bomb the assholes back to the stone age.....

real shaman: bomb the assholes back to the stone age.....

That'll solve lots of problems. Why didn't they think of this before!

real shaman: bomb the assholes back to the stone age.....

If you mean assholes as Hamas (and other terrorist groups), I'm right there with you. If you mean assholes as the residents of Azza as a whole, I have to disagree.

The fact is, there are some innocents there, even though the vast majority might have abhorrent opinions and might want to stop peace discussions but that doesn't mean we should just bomb them for the heck of it. While unilateral concessions will not help, neither will just making bombing indiscriminately.

Tatsuma: If you mean assholes as Hamas (and other terrorist groups), I'm right there with you. If you mean assholes as the residents of Azza as a whole, I have to disagree.

Holy shiat we agree on something. However, the best way to get rid of terrorists is not violence. You only create more that way. Ask our former President.

cameroncrazy1984: Holy shiat we agree on something. However, the best way to get rid of terrorists is not violence. You only create more that way. Ask our former President.

It's not the violence that creates the terrorists, it's the ideology. This is why you get terrorists from countries who are not subjugated or live under that kind of violence blowing themselves up or flying planes into building.

It's the ideology that drives the terrorism which needs to be squelched, not the operatives themselves, since they are merely going to be replaced.

Tatsuma: It's not the violence that creates the terrorists, it's the ideology. This is why you get terrorists from countries who are not subjugated or live under that kind of violence blowing themselves up or flying planes into building.

It's the ideology that drives the terrorism which needs to be squelched, not the operatives themselves, since they are merely going to be replaced.

Then why is Israel's only response these days, which you support, is to reflexively blow everything they can up? They are making no effort to stop the ideology at all anymore, unlike in the past. Israel is creating terrorists, not stopping them.

Tatsuma: It's the ideology that drives the terrorism which needs to be squelched, not the operatives themselves, since they are merely going to be replaced.

No argument there, but retaliation stokes the fire as well.

GAT_00: Then why is Israel's only response these days, which you support, is to reflexively blow everything they can up? They are making no effort to stop the ideology at all anymore, unlike in the past.

It's a religious ideology that originated from Saudi Arabia, where it's still spewing forth. How is Israel supposed to stop wahhabism from spreading around?

The only thing Israel can do at this point is attack the terrorist infrastructure in order to defend its citizens, as any other nation would.

Tatsuma: I've got to go with Olmert here (ugh.) and point out that by being "proportionate" and not finishing the job the first time, this only means that Israel will once again enter Azza in the future, that Hamas will have learned from its fault and be more efficient, and this will end up killing much more of the civilians they hid behind of.

Yes, because it's about time they finished the job they started in 1948 and finally wipe out the Palestinians once and for all.

How dare they not be content and happy to live in concentration camps? And don't get me started their incessant demands for such lavish ideals such as a recognized sovereign statehood, or independence from Israeli rule. Then there's their constant whining at having their homes bulldozed and parts of their reservation annexed by the kind and giving israeli settlers who just want to build new homes where there's used to be. And after all the kind and generous jews have done for them, such as letting them come through heavily armed security checkpoints for the privilege of working as underpaid laborers, how could any of them show any violence toward the proud, fair and just Israelis who aren't in any way perpetrating any act of ethnic cleansing? Surely this is the act of barbaric animals who should be wiped out once and for all.

Yes, I support Israel on this ... as much as I support the Nazis.

Tatsuma: Persepolis:

but please tone it down dude.

I know, I know, as I said it was very clumsily written. To my defense, I don't have anything against Persians, I've told you so many times in the past how much I love Persia (second favorite country historically after Israel) and Persians (and mourn the days when we got along great. It's not just me, even in the Gemara there is high praise for them). That's why, when I wrote that sentence, I in no way saw anything that could be interpreted as a bigoted statement, because bigotry is so far from my mind when I think about Persia/Persians. There's a clear distinction in my mind between the government of Iran and the people they subjugate.

Try to reread what I wrote, but instead of Iranians, read it as Frenchmen. And Garde Républicaine.

Dammit.

I'm the one who haunted you with that quote. I didn't do it because I perceive you as being an anti-Iranian Hitler. I did it because you were accusing numerous posters of being anti-Semitic Hitlers based solely on their flippant remarks in the thread.

So, how does it feel, Tats? How does it feel when you flick a smarmy comment off your wrist on a lark, then some self-righteous douche calls you to the carpet?

If you are so keen on context, try to remember that this is fark.com. This is not the floor of the UN or hastily assembled diplomatic mission to Israel. The whole point of this forum is to poke fun at the failures of media and culture. In the process, we poke fun at individuals, groups and each other. Get it?

You are a crusader. And crusaders have notoriously dulled senses of humor. Doesn't matter if they're Nazis, Zionists, the NRA or PETA. They can't take a joke and they react violently to the slightest criticism. They are no fun.

Want a happy life? Do what John Lennon says. Not in Imagine, but in Watching the Wheels. It's OK to choose sides. But be aware that at some point, your side is going to go wrong and let you down. Guaranteed. The only real side you have is your loved ones and friends. Deal with it.

rcain:

First you spewed anti-semitic statements about Jews in America, and it turns out you do not support Israel?! Shocking

How dare they not be content and happy to live in concentration camps? And don't get me started their incessant demands for such lavish ideals such as a recognized sovereign statehood, or independence from Israeli rule. Then there's their constant whining at having their homes bulldozed and parts of their reservation annexed by the kind and giving israeli settlers who just want to build new homes where there's used to be.

There is not a single Israeli settler or soldier staying in Azza anymore, the border with Egypt is not controlled by Israel, and it's been quite a while since Israel has been bulldozing houses. So that kind of kills that part of your post, doesn't it?

Tatsuma: , the border with Egypt is not controlled by Israel, and it's been quite a while since Israel has been bulldozing houses. So that kind of kills that part of your post, doesn't it?

It's been quite a while since Hitler too. Sorry, stuff doesn't just go away after awhile.

cameroncrazy1984: It's been quite a while since Hitler too. Sorry, stuff doesn't just go away after awhile.

Ah yes, I remember after the Shoah how Jews used to blow themselves up in the midst of German civilians, take shots at them, kill their children and claim they were going to ethnically cleanse them.

Good times.

"The cabinet's position from the first moment was that if the south's residents are fired on, our response will naturally be disproportionate," he said.

yeah, i'm sure that'll work out just great...

Just set off a few Fuel/Air explosives - that will teach them a lesson...

Let me see if I understand this.
I'm sure I'll get corrected.

Israel: "If you keep lobbing explosives at us we're going to treat you like shiat."
Hamas: "if you keep treating us like shiat we're going to lob explosives at you."

Repeat ad nauseum.

Tatsuma: not finishing the job the first time

THIS time they will bring an end to the rocket attacks.

Just like THIS time the rocket attacks will gain them independence and drive the settlers out...

This will never end.

/still blames Hamas of course, but at this rate, it's getting to be like blaming Rodney King for his LAPD beating: just because he brought it on himself, doesn't mean the response will be warranted.

Tatsuma: I've got to go with Olmert here (ugh.) and point out that by being "proportionate" and not finishing the job the first time, this only means that Israel will once again enter Azza in the future, that Hamas will have learned from its fault and be more efficient, and this will end up killing much more of the civilians they hid behind of.

Thank god.

Up until this point, it's like neither country wanted anything to change. They just kept doing the same thing over and over again, expecting things to change.

Finally, one of the countries has decided that they've had enough and that they're going to end this war. End it quickly.

Tatsuma: rcain:

First you spewed anti-semitic statements about Jews in America, and it turns out you do not support Israel?! Shocking

How dare they not be content and happy to live in concentration camps? And don't get me started their incessant demands for such lavish ideals such as a recognized sovereign statehood, or independence from Israeli rule. Then there's their constant whining at having their homes bulldozed and parts of their reservation annexed by the kind and giving israeli settlers who just want to build new homes where there's used to be.

There is not a single Israeli settler or soldier staying in Azza anymore, the border with Egypt is not controlled by Israel, and it's been quite a while since Israel has been bulldozing houses. So that kind of kills that part of your post, doesn't it?

Ohh sure, after they were forcefully removed in 2005. But it's not like those very generous and totally peaceful settlers aren't waiting to come back in and take over^

Your post really helps reinforce my view of israelis as just another iteration of ethnic cleansing
So take your "feel sorry for us because the nazis persecuted us" and shove it up your holier than thou ass. Israelis are every bit as bad as every other racist regime out there. And just because it's been 3 years since Israel finally started acting within the international treaties it signed doesn't erase their actions.

60 years of subjugation of another people is a whole lot to atone for.

And in those 60 years, Israel and one leader who truly wanted to make peace.
And many Israelis celebrate the day when he was gunned down^

But this wouldn't be the first time hebrews went about killing every man, woman and child in the region would it? In fact, you all tink it's your god given right.

Exodus 34
"11 Observe thou that which I command thee this day: behold, I drive out before thee the Amorite, and the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:

13 But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves:

14 For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

15 Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice;

16 And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.

17 Thou shalt make thee no molten gods."

Where's Joe the Plumber on this story?

rcain:

Not only you didn't even try to do a weak attempt to say you're not an anti-semite, but you actually linked to Press TV without a shady of irony. This is awesome.

Ohh sure, after they were forcefully removed in 2005. But it's not like those very generous and totally peaceful settlers aren't waiting to come back in and take over^

How does that change reality on the ground? There is not one Israeli soldier staying in Azza, there are no settlers anymore and the border that they share with Egypt is not controlled by Israel, your Boobies was completely inaccurate.

Your post really helps reinforce my view of israelis as just another iteration of ethnic cleansing
So take your "feel sorry for us because the nazis persecuted us" and shove it up your holier than thou ass.

And where did I say that, exactly?

And more than one Israeli leader wanted to make peace, it started in 48 with Ben-Gurion and even today Olmert offers 99% of everything Palestinians want and they say no because they want the whole cake (which includes the destruction of Israel by flooding it with millions of arabs and giving them citizenship so they can vote away the state).

cameroncrazy1984: Heard on NPR that Hamas has not declared responsibility for these rockets. Also heard that there were no casualties.

strangely enough, soverign nations ARE responsible for missles and mortars which are fired from their air space

if hamas was doing ANYTHING to stop the launches, then israel would be in a diff position

doesnt matter who is firing the missles
country A fires missles at country B
country B can fricking do whatever they want to stop country A from doing this

and before you tards go all geneva convention and UN on me ....
there is no INTERNATION LAW
soveriegn countries have ignored the UN and the geneva conventions whenever it suits their goals and needs

sure, you might get arrested and end up at the hague
but, dont count on that ....

when was the last time a nato member was brought to trial at the hague?

Tatsuma: The fact is, there are some innocents there, even though the vast majority might have abhorrent opinions and might want to stop peace discussions but that doesn't mean we should just bomb them for the heck of it. While unilateral concessions will not help, neither will just making bombing indiscriminately.

actually, the democratically elected government of gaza supports and condones the actions of everyone who is firing missles and mortars into israel

so until the replace the government with one which STOPS the attacks, the people are complicit
sorry, sucks to live in a democracy, but you get what you pay for

and - if you dont like living in a terrorist state or a war zone, flee the goddamn country already

do you really think that the egyptians will fire on 1000's of arabs fleeing the gazan war zone?
really ???

namatad: do you really think that the egyptians will fire on 1000's of arabs fleeing the gazan war zone?

If these fleeing arabs intend to settle permanently in Egypt, I think it's actually likely that they would, frankly.

Sickening, just sickening.

Well...

...fantastic.

This should go well. Nothing makes for a well resolved conflict like a good pogrom. Just ask Israel.

dillenger69: This should go well. Nothing makes for a well resolved conflict like a good pogrom. Just ask Israel.

You obviously don't know what a pogrom is, so don't use that word. Protip: It's not a Holocaust either.

GIT SOME GAZA.

So, cease fire is called.

A few days later, both Hamas and Israel are blowing each other up.

I couldn't see this one coming

END SARCASM

Ok, so that means we should have this all wrapped up by the end of the month? Awesome!

I was starting to get tired of this whole Israel/Hamas thing.

UPDATE:

A couple of hours ago, residents of Azza received SMSs and recorded phone call telling them to evacuate their houses if they are near tunnels or weapon caches, and now the IAF is currently hitting many targets in Gaza, including police stations.

No, not a repeat from last month

real shaman: bomb the assholes back to the stone age.....

The Stone Age is what Hamas wants.

Maybe we could somehow bomb them into the 21st century.

Hey Tatsuma, good to see you back. I got an email from you a while ago asking me for money because you got kidnapped by Somalian terrorists lol.