Maybe Putin's government is broke and needs some Western goodwill.

"The former Bush administration... said that the shield was to counter threats from rogue states such as Iran and was not directed against Moscow... Russia insisted, however, that the system posed a threat to its own security and repeatedly warned that it would take counter measures unless the US backed down."

I've had this argument with people. Look at a globe: ICBMs from Russia to the US go over the North Pole. An anti-missile base in Poland is of no significance whatsoever to Russia. The Russians know this, and are just posturing.

For once, Bush was telling the truth.

opiumpoopy: Maybe Putin's government is broke and needs some Western goodwill.

"The former Bush administration... said that the shield was to counter threats from rogue states such as Iran and was not directed against Moscow... Russia insisted, however, that the system posed a threat to its own security and repeatedly warned that it would take counter measures unless the US backed down."

I've had this argument with people. Look at a globe: ICBMs from Russia to the US go over the North Pole. An anti-missile base in Poland is of no significance whatsoever to Russia. The Russians know this, and are just posturing.

For once, Bush was telling the truth.

It didn't matter if the system was aimed at Iran or not, America was putting weapons in a country that was within Russia's sphere of local influence.

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? The Russians backed down, recognized that Cuba was within the sphere of American influence. Putting this system in Poland is basically spitting in their faces. Russia is proud, proud country... nothing is more dangerous then a newly poor proud man.

Bored Horde: nothing is more dangerous then a newly poor proud man.

I thought that Russia was doing quite well right now with all their oil reserves.

whyworry: I thought that Russia was doing quite well right now with all their oil reserves.

Maybe you haven't noticed, but oil has dropped over 70% in value quite recently.

opiumpoopy: I've had this argument with people. Look at a globe: ICBMs from Russia to the US go over the North Pole. An anti-missile base in Poland is of no significance whatsoever to Russia. The Russians know this, and are just posturing.

And medium ranged cruise missiles (something our anti-missile system is actually able to knock down) targeting Europe go over Poland. But missiles from rogue middle eastern states (which the system is supposed to be made to knock down) fly over Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey... but not Poland.

Bored Horde: Putting this system in Poland is basically spitting in their faces.

Yes, I think that's pretty much what was intended by the Polish government when they signed up.

It was the Russian invasion of Georgia that finally got the Poles nervous enough to finally sign up to the US scheme. And who can blame them?

Putting US tanks in Poland would be threatening Russia's 'sphere of influence'. A missile station isn't. Missile technology isn't the same as it was in 1962, so the threat isn't the same - and the Russians know this.

Anyway, the Cold War is over, and Russia's 'sphere of influence' stretches as far as the borders of the old USSR and no further. As they proved in Georgia.

Good. We don't need to police the world with missile 'shields'

Maybe this Obama guy is on to something after all really a secret communist instead of a secret muslim

Que Red Dawn references.

Missile shield makers need jobs too.

/Stimulus

The only problem with all of this is that these anti-missle missles don't work for shait.

Insurance_EE_guy:
Good. We don't need to police the world with missile 'shields'

and this.

So he's in office less than a month and already showing himself to be a pu$$y and able to be pushed around. This should end well...

Ninja Wicked: Maybe this Obama guy is on to something after all really a secret communist instead of a secret muslim

Que Red Dawn references.

Wolverines!!!!

/couldn't resist

opiumpoopy: Yes, I think that's pretty much what was intended by the Polish government when they signed up.

It was the Russian invasion of Georgia that finally got the Poles nervous enough to finally sign up to the US scheme. And who can blame them?

Putting US tanks in Poland would be threatening Russia's 'sphere of influence'. A missile station isn't. Missile technology isn't the same as it was in 1962, so the threat isn't the same - and the Russians know this.

Anyway, the Cold War is over, and Russia's 'sphere of influence' stretches as far as the borders of the old USSR and no further. As they proved in Georgia.

Missiles in Poland is still being provocative a stone's throw from Russia, demonstrating that the USA can now act totally unilaterally around the world. It is being antagonistic with technology that has never been shown to be reliable.

You know what is reliable? Diplomacy. Spending that money we pissed away on star wars projects on regional infrastucture investments in those troubled countries seeking nuclear technology would have had a waaay better long term payout.

MilesTeg: So he's in office less than a month a week and already showing himself to be a pu$$y and able to be pushed around respectable public figure who is willing to talk to other world leaders. This should end well...

I think i know what you meant to say, you just worded it in a way that might you look like you were trying to troll, glad I could help

damn open ended

Sarah is keeping an eye on all of this, right? From her house?

PUTIN REAR YOUR HEAD PHOTO.

NOW NOW NOW.

Lets put pieces of this thread together so we can all see the full picture:

Bored Horde:
It didn't matter if the system was aimed at Iran or not, America was putting weapons in a country that was within Russia's sphere of local influence.

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? The Russians backed down, recognized that Cuba was within the sphere of American influence. Putting this system in Poland is basically spitting in their faces. Russia is proud, proud country... nothing is more dangerous then a newly poor proud man.

Dust:
oil has dropped over 70% in value quite recently

opiumpoopy:
Yes, I think that's pretty much what was intended by the Polish government when they signed up.

It was the Russian invasion of Georgia that finally got the Poles nervous enough to finally sign up to the US scheme. And who can blame them?

Insurance_EE_guy:
Good. We don't need to police the world with missile 'shields'



They are broke, we are broke, and neither country wants to get into a Cold War scenario. Russia did do the right thing by handing out an olive branch to the new American administration, and America did the right thing by accepting(or vice-versa).

I doubt that we will be all lovey-dovey with Russia, but they really want to do business with the United States. While we may be hurting, we still are still a powerful country with money.



Side Note: I understand I may be biased being an American, but I still am calling the United States to come out on top of the global economic crisis.

Am I the only one who understood that the missle shield was aimed at preventing Iran from targeting europe? It would also be nice to have some parked in California and Alaska to keep an eye on the North Koreans.

Russia is just flexing muscle they dont have anymore now that the oil prices have tanked.

This has nothing to do with Obama. The Russians are getting slaughtered by low oil prices and the collapse of their financial institutions. They're grateful to have some pathetic and transparent public excuse for not spending the moolah on this missile deployment.

opiumpoopy: Bored Horde: Putting this system in Poland is basically spitting in their faces.

Yes, I think that's pretty much what was intended by the Polish government when they signed up.

It was the Russian invasion of Georgia that finally got the Poles nervous enough to finally sign up to the US scheme. And who can blame them?

Putting US tanks in Poland would be threatening Russia's 'sphere of influence'. A missile station isn't. Missile technology isn't the same as it was in 1962, so the threat isn't the same - and the Russians know this.

Anyway, the Cold War is over, and Russia's 'sphere of influence' stretches as far as the borders of the old USSR and no further. As they proved in Georgia.

Btw, haven't you posted this exact statement in every US/Russia missile thread or are you taking it from someone else who has posted it in every single US/Russia missile thread?

Its a subtle troll statement to rile up the arm/chair generals in here.

8/10 - pretty good, I just call it because i love the arm-chair general threads myself!

Bored Horde: It didn't matter if the system was aimed at Iran or not, America was putting weapons in a country that was within Russia's sphere of local influence.

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? The Russians backed down, recognized that Cuba was within the sphere of American influence. Putting this system in Poland is basically spitting in their faces. Russia is proud, proud country... nothing is more dangerous then a newly poor proud man.

I would argue that missiles designed to take out other missiles are a little different that Nuclear missiles that could take out Miami before we knew they were launched.

archichris: Am I the only one who understood that the missle shield was aimed at preventing Iran from targeting europe? It would also be nice to have some parked in California and Alaska to keep an eye on the North Koreans.

Russia is just flexing muscle they dont have anymore now that the oil prices have tanked.

How is a missile "shield" in Poland going to help those southern and eastern European countries from an attack out of Iran? Last I checked, Poland really isn't between Iran and most European countries.....

Putin's gonna play Obama like a fiddle.

Teela: Sarah is keeping an eye on all of this, right? From her house?

30 seconds. You got me by 30 seconds. I would like to think that we are soul mates.

We've demonstrated we'll openly bomb neutral countries in our 'War on Terror' as opposed to doing it in a clandestine manner.

Bored Horde: opiumpoopy: Maybe Putin's government is broke and needs some Western goodwill.

"The former Bush administration... said that the shield was to counter threats from rogue states such as Iran and was not directed against Moscow... Russia insisted, however, that the system posed a threat to its own security and repeatedly warned that it would take counter measures unless the US backed down."

I've had this argument with people. Look at a globe: ICBMs from Russia to the US go over the North Pole. An anti-missile base in Poland is of no significance whatsoever to Russia. The Russians know this, and are just posturing.

For once, Bush was telling the truth.

It didn't matter if the system was aimed at Iran or not, America was putting weapons in a country that was within Russia's sphere of local influence.

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? The Russians backed down, recognized that Cuba was within the sphere of American influence. Putting this system in Poland is basically spitting in their faces. Russia is proud, proud country... nothing is more dangerous then a newly poor proud man.

Spehere of Influence is a BS term. It's not the 19th century anymore, where nations can carve up communities at whim.

The countries were fully independent, and it is the native government who decides if the missle shield may be stationed there.

Russia has no say in the matter what-so-ever.

Teela: Sarah is keeping an eye on all of this, right? From her house?

Oh my gosh I am slapping my knee!

I think it's called diplomacy, but don't say it too loud.

Bored Horde: opiumpoopy: Yes, I think that's pretty much what was intended by the Polish government when they signed up.

It was the Russian invasion of Georgia that finally got the Poles nervous enough to finally sign up to the US scheme. And who can blame them?

Putting US tanks in Poland would be threatening Russia's 'sphere of influence'. A missile station isn't. Missile technology isn't the same as it was in 1962, so the threat isn't the same - and the Russians know this.

Anyway, the Cold War is over, and Russia's 'sphere of influence' stretches as far as the borders of the old USSR and no further. As they proved in Georgia.

Missiles in Poland is still being provocative a stone's throw from Russia, demonstrating that the USA can now act totally unilaterally around the world. It is being antagonistic with technology that has never been shown to be reliable.

You know what is reliable? Diplomacy. Spending that money we pissed away on star wars projects on regional infrastucture investments in those troubled countries seeking nuclear technology would have had a waaay better long term payout.

How is a purely defensive mechanism a provocation?

Wait, you are one those America=Imperialism Violence=Resistance nutters, aren't you?

Translation: We can't afford to deploy them anymore so we'll use Obama as an excuse.

Swampthing in Korea: The countries were fully independent, and it is the native government who decides if the missle shield may be stationed there.

Russia has no say in the matter what-so-ever.

LoL...I bet you believe in the concept of 'international law' as well, huh? Why don't you tell Georgia about how a 'fully independent native government' doesn't have to worry about what Russia has to say?

I'm waiting for another "china captures US spy plane and refuses to release crew" type of thing.

Biden was right. He's going to be "tested".

Cat Food Sandwiches: Putin's gonna play Obama like a fiddle Bailalaika .

/Вы говорите по-английски?
//slashky

DFWPhotoGuy: Teela: Sarah is keeping an eye on all of this, right? From her house?

30 seconds. You got me by 30 seconds. I would like to think that we are soul mates.

Keith Olbermann called he wants his gayness back.

RockyMtnMan: Lets put pieces of this thread together so we can all see the full picture:

Bored Horde:
It didn't matter if the system was aimed at Iran or not, America was putting weapons in a country that was within Russia's sphere of local influence.

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? The Russians backed down, recognized that Cuba was within the sphere of American influence. Putting this system in Poland is basically spitting in their faces. Russia is proud, proud country... nothing is more dangerous then a newly poor proud man.

Dust:
oil has dropped over 70% in value quite recently

opiumpoopy:
Yes, I think that's pretty much what was intended by the Polish government when they signed up.

It was the Russian invasion of Georgia that finally got the Poles nervous enough to finally sign up to the US scheme. And who can blame them?

Insurance_EE_guy:
Good. We don't need to police the world with missile 'shields'



They are broke, we are broke, and neither country wants to get into a Cold War scenario. Russia did do the right thing by handing out an olive branch to the new American administration, and America did the right thing by accepting(or vice-versa).

I doubt that we will be all lovey-dovey with Russia, but they really want to do business with the United States. While we may be hurting, we still are still a powerful country with money.



Side Note: I understand I may be biased being an American, but I still am calling the United States to come out on top of the global economic crisis.

If you don't think Russia will find an excuse to enter other former satellite nations in the future you are crazy.

Code_Archeologist: opiumpoopy: I've had this argument with people. Look at a globe: ICBMs from Russia to the US go over the North Pole. An anti-missile base in Poland is of no significance whatsoever to Russia. The Russians know this, and are just posturing.

And medium ranged cruise missiles (something our anti-missile system is actually able to knock down) targeting Europe go over Poland. But missiles from rogue middle eastern states (which the system is supposed to be made to knock down) fly over Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey... but not Poland.

Yay for being able to recognize a globus and a ballistic trajectory! If the U.S. really wanted a missile shield to be effective against Iran, they would be building early detection radars in Iraqi Kurdistan right now.

Nemo's Brother: If you don't think Russia will find an excuse to enter other former satellite nations in the future you are crazy.

After Georgia, anyone holding an Estonian passport should be somewhat nervous. Estonia is rather high on the Russian shiat-list, always has been and always will be. And Russia could easily create a "We have to protect our citizens!" scenario vs. Estonia.

Bored Horde:It didn't matter if the system was aimed at Iran or not, America was putting weapons in a country that was within Russia's sphere of local influence.

Remember the Cuban missile crisis? The Russians backed down, recognized that Cuba was within the sphere of American influence. Putting this system in Poland is basically spitting in their faces. Russia is proud, proud country... nothing is more dangerous then a newly poor proud man.

NATO countries are within Russia's sphere of influence now? Why the fark to you think Poland and the Czech Republic joined NATO in the first place? To get out of Russia's "Sphere of Influence".

log_jammin: I'm waiting for another "china captures US spy plane and refuses to release crew" type of thing.

Biden was right. He's going to be "tested".

McCain would have been tested too. He spent the month after after the Georgian affair waving his dick (rightly, in my opinion) at Russia and threatening a new Cold War. You think wouldn't have tried to call his bluff?

The "Obama will be tested" line was the stupidest argument the Republicans came up with. Well, at least for that week. Every President will be tested by foreign powers to see how he'll react.

opiumpoopy: Maybe Putin's government is broke and needs some Western goodwill

Maybe both the US and Russia are broke and don't feel like posturing in Eastern Europe any more.

opiumpoopy: It was the Russian invasion of Georgia that finally got the Poles nervous enough to finally sign up to the US scheme.

You mean to war in Georgia got the US nervous enough to accept Polish conditions. The US thought that the honour of hosting the missile shield was payment enough. The Poles wanted a Patriot Missile battery and other military aid to modernise air defence. This resulted in a year long deadlock, but after the Georgian war the US agreed to Polish conditions.

Cornwell: After Georgia, anyone holding an Estonian passport should be somewhat nervous. Estonia is rather high on the Russian shiat-list, always has been and always will be. And Russia could easily create a "We have to protect our citizens!" scenario vs. Estonia.

I think the Russians are focused on Ukraine at the moment. A huge chunk of the population in the Crimean Peninsula consider themselves Russian, so you already have another potential Ossestia on your hands. Russia would love nothing more than to once again control the major Black Sea ports. In terms of Russian interference, the Baltic states should probably be more worried about their economic situation. Latvia in particular is going the way of Iceland and Lithuania and Estonia aren't far behind. That's just the kind of situation the Russians might try to exploit.

MilesTeg: So he's in office less than a month and already showing himself to be a pu$$y and able to be pushed around. This should end well...

"How easy it was to produce scapegoats and how readily they were accepted! This was especially true when the alternative was to find yourself either guilty or stupid or both."

-Miles Teg - Bene Gesserit Mentat Bashar

I would only support the missile shield if you could guarantee it would work 100% of the time. But you can't. It only has to fail once and the system's completely useless. It's the modern equivalent of the Great Wall. The Great Wall was defeated by basically bribing a few border guards. Was that worth the billions of equivalent bucks that were spent building it? Not to mention the lives lost.

Bad_Seed:
NATO countries are within Russia's sphere of influence now? Why the fark to you think Poland and the Czech Republic joined NATO in the first place? To get out of Russia's "Sphere of Influence".


Last I checked they were still in Russia's backyard. Them joining NATO is not all that different than the Cuban-Soviet alliance that started the Missile Crisis. Cuba having an alliance with the Soviet Union did not change the fact that Cuba is in the USA's backyard. I can understand Russia being uneasy with us putting a military installation in Poland. Why should they react any different to that than we would?

Mentat: Cornwell: After Georgia, anyone holding an Estonian passport should be somewhat nervous. Estonia is rather high on the Russian shiat-list, always has been and always will be. And Russia could easily create a "We have to protect our citizens!" scenario vs. Estonia.

I think the Russians are focused on Ukraine at the moment. A huge chunk of the population in the Crimean Peninsula consider themselves Russian, so you already have another potential Ossestia on your hands. Russia would love nothing more than to once again control the major Black Sea ports. In terms of Russian interference, the Baltic states should probably be more worried about their economic situation. Latvia in particular is going the way of Iceland and Lithuania and Estonia aren't far behind. That's just the kind of situation the Russians might try to exploit.

Good points altogether, but I still think that the grudge against Estonia will outweigh that of Ukraine, should they want to wave their military dick around for a bit. Plus, Estonia has a military that remains quite weak, compared to Ukraine.

[Cue Seinfeld Ukraine Risk photo here!]

Swampthing in Korea:
How is a purely defensive mechanism a provocation?

Just like building a castle was usually considered act of aggression, building any fortification (mobile or stationary) is often considered an act of aggression because it reduces the effectiveness of the enemy weapons and disrupts the current balance of power.

Thought exercise: Imagine the US's reaction to the deployment of vessels in international waters that have a similar missile shield capability. Would we have no reason for concern as it's purely a defensive mechanism, or would we consider alternate methods to regain lost power projection, including the sinking of said vessels?

Cornwell: Code_Archeologist: opiumpoopy: I've had this argument with people. Look at a globe: ICBMs from Russia to the US go over the North Pole. An anti-missile base in Poland is of no significance whatsoever to Russia. The Russians know this, and are just posturing.

And medium ranged cruise missiles (something our anti-missile system is actually able to knock down) targeting Europe go over Poland. But missiles from rogue middle eastern states (which the system is supposed to be made to knock down) fly over Romania, Bulgaria, and Turkey... but not Poland.

Yay for being able to recognize a globus and a ballistic trajectory! If the U.S. really wanted a missile shield to be effective against Iran, they would be building early detection radars in Iraqi Kurdistan right now.

Hell, I'm sure Turkey would be more than happy to have the missile shield. The Russians also offered to put one in place in Azerbaijan, as that would be more effective. We said no, that Poland was a good place, which means that the missile shield had absolutely nothing to do with Iran. We were sending Russia a message. Basically, we were saying that we didn't trust them, and that we would be building defenses. Anyone who says that this wasn't a hostile act is a fool. To the Russians, it would look like we're preparing for war.

Lol thinking of it from the polish perspective, having high-tech military units from a superpower that is half a world away is preferable to their historical position of being lebensraum for their neighbors. Sure it spits in Russia's face, but perhaps they deserve that jab since Russia was in league with the nazis in denying the poles their right to self-determination. Russia's sabre rattling in the end means jack shiat, as their fears are founded solely on their desire to control populations that are ethnically and geographical distinct from the historical bounds of Russia.

And before you wag your finger at the United States, just know that tin-foil hat theories of the illuminati do not match up to the documented activities of the Comintern.