WTF are you talking about?

Wait wait wait. People are organizing to be an authority unto themselves, and not beholden to the Church - and the church opposes this? I'm shocked. Shocked!

ninjakirby: Wait wait wait. People are organizing to be an authority unto themselves, and not beholden to the Church - and the church opposes this? I'm shocked. Shocked!

Their house, their rules. You don't have to like the Church, but forcing them to allow unions is a bad idea.

Weaver95: ninjakirby: Wait wait wait. People are organizing to be an authority unto themselves, and not beholden to the Church - and the church opposes this? I'm shocked. Shocked!

Their house, their rules. You don't have to like the Church, but forcing them to allow unions is a bad idea.

Bullsh*t. Our house, their tax evasion. They can go f*ck themselves if they don't like the rules of the game.

Teachers unions vs churches? Can I hope they both lose?

thamike: Bullsh*t. Our house, their tax evasion. They can go f*ck themselves if they don't like the rules of the game.

actually, Catholic schools SAVE the state money. Parents pay school taxes and then don't use public schools - they pay tuition for kids in a Catholic school instead.

Basically, the unions want this to happen because they want a monopoly on all education funding in the state. the fact that Catholic schools have remained beyond their reach undermines their monopoly, so they're trying to essentially use illegal legislative tactics to get that level of control they need for state wide budget/contract negotiations.

FTA
Who would make demands that would put themselves out of work?" he added.

I guess the head of this union has not talked with the he4ad of the UAW......

I for one hope the Church goes forth with its threats and closes all of them down if they vote in the Teachers Union.

The_Ancient: I for one hope the Church goes forth with its threats and closes all of them down if they vote in the Teachers Union.

Same here. The teachers unions in this state have not proven to be very helpful to anyone. Not even their own membership.

Msgr. George Higgins (^) frowns upon your shenanigans, your Excellency.

The decision a year ago puts teachers at the "will" of their employer, the union has argued. The diocese argues its new employee relations program will include provisions to ensure job security.

So.. basically.. the teachers union doesn't like the idea that the schools can fire a teacher that sucks or doesn't meet performance goals?

xtex: The decision a year ago puts teachers at the "will" of their employer, the union has argued. The diocese argues its new employee relations program will include provisions to ensure job security.

So.. basically.. the teachers union doesn't like the idea that the schools can fire a teacher that sucks or doesn't meet performance goals?

essentially correct. That sort of accountability is something that our union types here don't really like very much.

Weaver95: Their house, their rules. You don't have to like the Church, but forcing them to allow unions is a bad idea.

Meh.

ninjakirby: Weaver95: Their house, their rules. You don't have to like the Church, but forcing them to allow unions is a bad idea.

Meh.

How would you feel if the Church was allowed to dictate to the teachers' union(s) that all teachers had to say that all homosexual activity was a sin in the eyes of God?

You'd fight against that, right? Because it violates the seperation between Church and State, gay rights, blah blah. Point is that you'd be against the Church telling teachers what to teach and how to teach it. well - the Church doesn't want a teacher's union telling it's teachers how to handle matters of Church doctrine.

As it stands right now, you send your kid(s) to a Catholic school, you know that they're going to learn Church doctrine along with the regular courses. Parents understand that's part of the deal. It's all above board, and if they don't want their kids learning that stuff, then they can pull 'em out and send them to public school. But what happens if/when a union comes in and tells teachers they have to teach a message that contradicts Church doctrine? Does a union offical have a 'right' to tell a religious school how to teach religious doctrine? I think that's just as offensive as if a religious organization had the right to tell a union what to do.

Keep a wall between these schools and everything else.

Weaver95: How would you feel if the Church was allowed to dictate to the teachers' union(s) that all teachers had to say that all homosexual activity was a sin in the eyes of God?

I'm just Meh'ing getting into an argument about unions. I see your points as valid and most probably correct, I just know little about unions, have never been in one, and generally see them as a necessary evil.

Wow, this is like being forced to sign on with either Hitler or Idi Amin.

Did I say "teacher's unions"? I meant, "rent-seeking extortionists".

Lets remember teachers usually get the ass end of every stick. They end up paying for their own supplies when the school's budget is underfunded so the governor can pay for more hookers. They are college graduates helping your precious little snowflake's future while making less than an assistant manager at Long John Silvers. They work well beyond school hours....making lession plans, and those tests don't grade themselves. Yes, they have summer's off, but they don't get paid during that time, and usually need second jobs. And god help them if they have kids. Their salary can barely support one person. Finally, their hands are usually tied when it comes to disiplining 20-30 little monsters. I'd like to see some of these union busters manage 5 minutes in a classroom without wanting to kill half the kids in there.
I support teacher unions because without them, most teachers would walk away and then you would be forced to educate your own child. Good luck with that. I doubt it's as easy as you think. The homeschoolers are just farking crazy.

/Not a teacher

The reason people send their kids to private school is because they're NOT like public schools.

The union knows this. If they can make the Catholic schools just like the public ones, the parents will give up and send the kids back to public school. More money for the teachers.

Why spend the money on a lousy private education when you can get a lousy education for free?

And let's not forget, this isn't some altruistic notion that the union has to organize private school teachers. Those dues make a nice sum of money for the union.

And even if you don't want to be in the union, you're probably going to have to cough up the money anyway.

Stay away from the Catholic schools, government.

/not Catholic

ninjakirby: generally see them as a necessary evil.


One whose time has passed, the government regs they fought about for safety and so forth are now part of national and state law, there isn't really much use for unions now.

If the parochial schools are forced to have unionized teachers, they might as well close down because then they will suck like public schools. If it's not really an alternative, why send your kids there?

Weaver95: ninjakirby: Wait wait wait. People are organizing to be an authority unto themselves, and not beholden to the Church - and the church opposes this? I'm shocked. Shocked!

Their house, their rules. You don't have to like the Church, but forcing them to allow unions is a bad idea.

but the parochial school kids deserve extended vacations because the teachers are striking

My wife's a middle grades teacher whose facing a big pay cut or a layoff, so I'm getting a kick out of these replies.

I also get a kick out of this idea:
The local economy is tanking. Let's cut the education funding. That ought to get us back into play.

And the administration rents a high rise downtown and owns numerous stagnant properties... And the K-12 administrators don't want to touch the lottery money because the state will just cut their funding to match the current budget. And they don't teach history because it isn't part of the standardized tests. And the kids keep getting dumber and dumber.

I look at this box of fish hooks and want to throw it away.

Weaver95: Keep a wall between these schools and everything else.

Fair enough. But there are too many instances where these schools benefit from public services without taking on requisite burdens. Example - using public school buses to transport Catholic school students to class.

On the immediate topic, however, the Catholic Church has always been union friendly. This is an aberration.

FredaDeStilleto:
On the immediate topic, however, the Catholic Church has always been union friendly. This is an aberration.

Please stop with the butt sex jokes.

Two 2-minute hate on unions threads today, yayayayayay!!!!

Weaver95: xtex: The decision a year ago puts teachers at the "will" of their employer, the union has argued. The diocese argues its new employee relations program will include provisions to ensure job security.

So.. basically.. the teachers union doesn't like the idea that the schools can fire a teacher that sucks or doesn't meet performance goals?

essentially correct. That sort of accountability is something that our union types here don't really like very much.

This. In spades. At my son's high school, a friend had a complaint against one of her daughter's teachers. She wanted him observed, because her daughter says he grades based on cup size (girls get higher grades than boys). Principal said the contract with the teachers' union allows ONE day of classroom observation every two years.

Can someone tell me any other job, profession, etc., where the employees are so completely free of oversight? Teacher unions are one of the biggest problems in public schools today.

Je5tEr

One whose time has passed, the government regulations they fought about for safety and so forth are now part of national and state law, there isn't really much use for unions now.

I couldn't disagree more. Did you know airlines are constantly fighting and suing to reduce the safety margins (crew rest for instance, ) provided by law?

You get what you pay for. Check out this union man:

fark catholic schools. let every one of them burn and keep kids way the fark away from religion. let the parents teach them all about that stuff at home if they want. catholic schools do nothing but indoctrinate children in an environment that only exists within the walls of a school, and it has repercussions when they graduate and enter the real world. where do you think the joke about catholic school alumni turning apostate comes from?

and yes, i went to 8 years of catholic school. yeah, i'm a little bitter.

a side note - i assume the teacher's unions are to protect the jobs and salaries of teachers, not ensure doctrinal uniformity. why should catholic administrators have any more control over those finances than public school administrators do?

Oh, and that's just about the dumbest headline of the year, subby. It makes no sense no matter what your views about Catholics or unions.

Weaver95: Their house, their rules. You don't have to like the Church, but forcing them to allow unions is a bad idea.

Just because it's the church doesn't mean they don't have to follow the law just like any other employer.

the fact that Catholic schools have remained beyond their reach undermines their monopoly, so they're trying to essentially use illegal legislative tactics to get that level of control they need for state wide budget/contract negotiations.

TFA:
The Saturday rally marked the one-year anniversary of the announcement that the diocese would not recognize the teachers union as a collective bargaining unit...

The decision a year ago puts teachers at the "will" of their employer, the union has argued.

Sounds they weren't outside of their reach up to a year ago.

Bad_Seed: Sounds they weren't outside of their reach up to a year ago.

so the primate can repeat what it's heard....but can it understand the meaning of the words it's regurgitating?

Now why would that have occured? One is forced to wonder what caused the announcement in the first place....

Great plan Pennsylvania! Make the Catholic schools suck just like the public ones.

Burn_Atlanta: Weaver95: xtex: The decision a year ago puts teachers at the "will" of their employer, the union has argued. The diocese argues its new employee relations program will include provisions to ensure job security.

So.. basically.. the teachers union doesn't like the idea that the schools can fire a teacher that sucks or doesn't meet performance goals?

essentially correct. That sort of accountability is something that our union types here don't really like very much.

This. In spades. At my son's high school, a friend had a complaint against one of her daughter's teachers. She wanted him observed, because her daughter says he grades based on cup size (girls get higher grades than boys). Principal said the contract with the teachers' union allows ONE day of classroom observation every two years.

Can someone tell me any other job, profession, etc., where the employees are so completely free of oversight? Teacher unions are one of the biggest problems in public schools today.

I'd be careful making blanket statements about teacher's unions. I'm a teacher, and I've seen districts where the teacher's union got along well with the administration and teachers were closely scruntinized. At the same time, I'll admit much of what you say is correct - I am incredibly dismayed at the quality of some of my fellow teachers. I'd be happier if there were a combination of better salaries and benefits for teachers, yet at the same time a more formalized method of evaluating their effectiveness. I can guarantee you the prinicipals at any school know who the quality teachers are and could get rid of the bad ones, had they the power.

Weaver95: Bad_Seed: Sounds they weren't outside of their reach up to a year ago.

so the primate can repeat what it's heard....but can it understand the meaning of the words it's regurgitating?

Now why would that have occured? One is forced to wonder what caused the announcement in the first place....

Probably for the same reason the church does anything: money and control.

edmo: I couldn't disagree more. Did you know airlines are constantly fighting and suing to reduce the safety margins (crew rest for instance, ) provided by law?

So? Those things are now governed by law and things like the FAA, OSHA, etc. Can you imagine the instantaneous class action lawsuit that would occur if there were an airline accident directly attributable to reduced safety margins that the airlines sued to get?

The airlines have been a messed up perpetually bankrupt ball of fail for quite a while now.

I was reading about Bill Gates' education initiative. The article said, even with the same curriculum, certain teachers get higher scores for their students than other teahcers. I thought, why don't they promote those teachers to principal and spread the knowledge.

Then I realized that, due to the teacher's unions, schools promote based on seniority, not merit.

More unions may be better for teachers, but less unions are better for the educational system.

Angry Drunk Bureaucrat: Msgr. George Higgins (^) frowns upon your shenanigans, your Excellency.

Of course he'd be unhappy about it, he was unhappy about everything. And so would you be if you had to go through life with no poontang.

/ymmv

"will mean the end of Catholic schools"

So, what's the downside again?

Bishop?

Weaver95: ninjakirby: Weaver95: Their house, their rules. You don't have to like the Church, but forcing them to allow unions is a bad idea.

Meh.

How would you feel if the Church was allowed to dictate to the teachers' union(s) that all teachers had to say that all homosexual activity was a sin in the eyes of God?

You'd fight against that, right? Because it violates the seperation between Church and State, gay rights, blah blah. Point is that you'd be against the Church telling teachers what to teach and how to teach it. well - the Church doesn't want a teacher's union telling it's teachers how to handle matters of Church doctrine.

As it stands right now, you send your kid(s) to a Catholic school, you know that they're going to learn Church doctrine along with the regular courses. Parents understand that's part of the deal. It's all above board, and if they don't want their kids learning that stuff, then they can pull 'em out and send them to public school. But what happens if/when a union comes in and tells teachers they have to teach a message that contradicts Church doctrine? Does a union offical have a 'right' to tell a religious school how to teach religious doctrine? I think that's just as offensive as if a religious organization had the right to tell a union what to do.

Keep a wall between these schools and everything else.

Nope. The church is employing people from the general public to teach students. They should be held to the same standards as any other employer. If they don't like it they can only have existing clergy teach classes rather than hiring teachers.

The Catholic Church is like one big fat self absorbed entitled biatch that thinks the world exists for its benefit. Fark em.

Make them all pay taxes on anything they do that isn't directly charitable work for the general public.

edmo: I couldn't disagree more. Did you know airlines are constantly fighting and suing to reduce the safety margins (crew rest for instance, ) provided by law?

You get what you pay for. Check out this union man:

A union man that makes 180k a year. Yea for the little man!

/what the fark do unions have to do with safety margins outside of the union using FUD whenever an airline doesn't cap to their every demand?

Wait... where are they all?

chirp chirp chirp

Where are all the whiney, butthurt farkers? You know, the ones who are always first in line to screech about "separation of church and state." (An idea I approve of, by the way.)

This is a clear violation of that principle, but all we hear is silence. Heh. Guess they don't like being reminded that the sword cuts both ways.

Hypocrites.

edmo

"You get what you pay for. Check out this union man:"


Check out this scale model of your argument (linked like it's hot):



Unions are NOT the reason that airline safety standards are up to date.

If we got what we paid for with union employees, it would not cost $80k to hire a doorman in New York City (it does), we would not be paying $60k plus benefits (pops) for auto workers to not do anything while sitting in a job bank, employees of government organizations that exist to serve people might actually offer people decent service, etc.

Where's the tag for anyone trying to limit the spread of the union cancer, even if they ARE Catholic?

Weaver95: The_Ancient: I for one hope the Church goes forth with its threats and closes all of them down if they vote in the Teachers Union.

Same here. The teachers unions in this state have not proven to be very helpful to anyone. Not even their own membership.

As a former Union member (International Machinist & Aerospace 585) I can only speek for my experiences. Unions had a place once but only took my money and keep me from make more money, and when needed folded like Chinese lawn chair.

Subby instead of Mafia hitman I would have used "Amateur Pediatric Proctologist" just say'n

Hubris Boy: Wait... where are they all?

chirp chirp chirp

Where are all the whiney, butthurt farkers? You know, the ones who are always first in line to screech about "separation of church and state." (An idea I approve of, by the way.)

This is a clear violation of that principle, but all we hear is silence. Heh. Guess they don't like being reminded that the sword cuts both ways.

Hypocrites.

I'm not sure this is a violation of the separation principle. As stated upstream, Catholic schools (including the one at which I teach) now use lay people as teachers almost exclusively. As a rule, both public and private entities must obey certain rules about how employees are treated, and allowing employees to unionize is one of the things the schools may not be able to challenge.

Did I say "Mafia hitman"? I meant "Catholic bishop"
Same thing.

Anyone with half a brain can see this as the Teacher's Unions way to shut down Catholic schools. If the Union gets its way, the schools will have to be shutdown anyway because Catholic schools operate on a razorthin budget. They can't afford the bullshiat Union's foster on the government system.

/Forcing unionization is pretty fascist.
// If the teachers at the Catholic schools don't like their deal, they can teach in public schools.

All non-public schools should be closed down. All kids should be forced to go to public schools, with a 3 year boarding school requirement.

spmkk: edmo

"You get what you pay for. Check out this union man:"


Check out this scale model of your argument (linked like it's hot):



Unions are NOT the reason that airline safety standards are up to date.

If we got what we paid for with union employees, it would not cost $80k to hire a doorman in New York City (it does), we would not be paying $60k plus benefits (pops) for auto workers to not do anything while sitting in a job bank, employees of government organizations that exist to serve people might actually offer people decent service, etc.

Where's the tag for anyone trying to limit the spread of the union cancer, even if they ARE Catholic?

LOL, I love little biatches with bad jobs who are too weak to beat out others for a union job who cry about it. LOL.

"Any idiot can do a union job!!!"
"Why don't you?"


//not union. Happy they have them