The problem with this shaky truce crap is that even if 999,999 out of a million Palestinians are cool and want peace, if that last retard happens to have a rocket launcher, the rest are going to get stomped.

*sighs, checks watch, waits for rockets to fall*

Skail: if that last retard happens to have a rocket launcher, the rest are going to get stomped

Community punishment is not a good or effective punishment, imho. One would think Israel would have decent enough intelligence (especially with us as a lapdog) to pinpoint people, locations, etc.

/but then again what do I know

The hope is that the US new Middle East envoy, George Mitchell, can answer questions about steroid usage among middle eastern combattants.

Heh. Oughta put the "ZOMG there's a adult video rental in the neighborhood!!" folks into perspective...

notmtwain: The hope is that the US new Middle East envoy, George Mitchell, can answer questions about steroid usage among middle eastern combattants.

His work on the Good Friday peace agreement is legendary. People might be able to criticize his positions, but to relegate him to "steroids" I guess is for the lulz - but its unfair.

He has his work cut out for him

Skail: if that last retard happens to have a rocket launcher, the rest are going to get stomped.

Perhaps. Its also another possibility that Mitchell's work on curbing the settlements is thwarted by similar rogue elements.

Perhaps something regional flares up. Perhaps this Gaza conflict erodes Egypts relationship with Israel. This is topically more important than the Mubarak Govt's relationship with Israel on Gaza and the southern border. Oil for one point.

Then there's the issue of the blockade. Its really hard to justify in 1967, Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egyptian forces in response to Egypt's closing of the Straits of Tiran, (Egypt closed that based on intel from the USSR) and then turn around and close the borders on Gaza and not see that in the same manner.

So what do you do? Mitchell has his work cut out here.

+1 for subby.

Party Boy: Then there's the issue of the blockade. Its really hard to justify in 1967, Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egyptian forces in response to Egypt's closing of the Straits of Tiran, (Egypt closed that based on intel from the USSR) and then turn around and close the borders on Gaza and not see that in the same manner.

No it's not, it's in fact retarded to even make such a comparison.

Israel was not attacking Egypt, and Egypt had removed the UN force from Sinai and was openly declaring that they would attack Israel and wipe it out with its allies.

If Israel had been shooting thousands of mortars and missiles toward Cairo from the straits, you'd have a point. It wasn't the case however.

This analogy deserves to be put away in the same box as "Waah, Gaza is the new Warsaw Ghetto" or "GENOCIDE!!!" comments on the current conflict.

Hamas collect the garbage, run several medical clinics, run most of the schools, and dole out lots of emergency supplies.

Or did you think all they did was march in the streets and fire rockets off?

40yoVirgin: Skail: if that last retard happens to have a rocket launcher, the rest are going to get stomped

Community punishment is not a good or effective punishment, imho. One would think Israel would have decent enough intelligence (especially with us as a lapdog) to pinpoint people, locations, etc.

/but then again what do I know

that's what this last incursion was about. collateral damage happens anyway.

Tatsuma: No it's not, it's in fact retarded to even make such a comparison.

Israel was not attacking Egypt, and Egypt had removed the UN force from Sinai and was openly declaring that they would attack Israel and wipe it out with its allies.

If Israel had been shooting thousands of mortars and missiles toward Cairo from the straits, you'd have a point. It wasn't the case however.

This analogy deserves to be put away in the same box as "Waah, Gaza is the new Warsaw Ghetto" or "GENOCIDE!!!" comments on the current conflict.

You're right.

A much better comparison is the black population in South Africa under the peak of apartheid.

Party Boy: Perhaps this Gaza conflict erodes Egypts relationship with Israel.

No it's not going to. 98% Egyptians already hate Jews and Israel according to PEW surveys. It moved up to 99% you say? Gee, now that's a change that's worrying.

The relationship with Egypt and the rest of the countries surrounding wasn't changed by the last conflict. The arab street has always hated Israel with a passion and it's not gonna change.

This is topically more important than the Mubarak Govt's relationship with Israel on Gaza and the southern border.

As long as the Mubarak regime is propped up by US aid, he will shut up and do as he's told.

Tatsuma: No it's not, it's in fact retarded to even make such a comparison.

Really? Strait closure versus closing borders and naval blockade.

Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egyptian forces in response to Egypt's closing of the Straits.

We're not talking about an Egyptian closure of Israels land and sea borders. Just some straits.

Bored Horde: Hamas collect the garbage, run several medical clinics, run most of the schools, and dole out lots of emergency supplies.

Just because a serial killer who likes to rape his victims, dismember them, then rape then again also volunteers in a homeless shelter, adopts kittens and helps old ladies cross the street doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to fry on the electric chair.

A much better comparison is the black population in South Africa under the peak of apartheid.

The arabs inside of Israel have more right in Israel than in any of their other countries, so your analogy definitely doesn't work there.

Tatsuma: As long as the Mubarak regime is propped up by US aid, he will shut up and do as he's told.

Even in Israel's case, this deviates. Mubarak is feeling some strain right now on Gaza

notmtwain: The hope is that the US new Middle East envoy, George Mitchell, can answer questions about steroid usage among middle eastern combattants.

He doesn't have the power to subpoena, so no one of any importance will talk to him.

Did anyone else look at the link and think "Damn, Hamas is in Tampa now?"

Party Boy: Perhaps something regional flares up. Perhaps this Gaza conflict erodes Egypts relationship with Israel.


Not necesarially. Hamas isthe Muslim Brotherhood of 'Palestine' and Egypt, though giving Israel pro forma condemnation has not opened its border and blamed Hamas publically for the bloodshed. There is little love for the MB in the Egyptian governemnt.



40yoVirgin: Community punishment is not a good or effective punishment, imho. One would think Israel would have decent enough intelligence (especially with us as a lapdog) to pinpoint people, locations, etc.

They have. That's why Fatah guys have been whacked.

But don't forget, Hamas deliberately launches attacks from cvilian areas. That way they get the telegenic dead for Wesetern consumption... not to mention the Arab street.

IT does seem to be costing them (new window), though.

Man On Fire: 40yoVirgin: Skail: if that last retard happens to have a rocket launcher, the rest are going to get stomped

Community punishment is not a good or effective punishment, imho. One would think Israel would have decent enough intelligence (especially with us as a lapdog) to pinpoint people, locations, etc.

/but then again what do I know

that's what this last incursion was about. collateral damage happens anyway.

If you were worried about collateral damage, you wouldn't fly jets around and drop thousand pound bombs into densely populated areas. You'd helicopter in some troops, land on the roof, and arrest the people of interest. Or are we sanctioning assassinations again?

Israel was never interested in justice or ensuring safety. The sitting government wanted to try to appear tough on the Palestinians, and to try and regain some military credibility after the Lebanon fiasco.

/window seat please.

Tatsuma: Party Boy: Perhaps this Gaza conflict erodes Egypts relationship with Israel.

No it's not going to. 98% Egyptians already hate Jews and Israel according to PEW surveys. It moved up to 99% you say? Gee, now that's a change that's worrying.

The relationship with Egypt and the rest of the countries surrounding wasn't changed by the last conflict. The arab street has always hated Israel with a passion and it's not gonna change.

This is topically more important than the Mubarak Govt's relationship with Israel on Gaza and the southern border.

As long as the Mubarak regime is propped up by US aid, he will shut up and do as he's told.

What do you suggest we do?

40yoVirgin: Skail: if that last retard happens to have a rocket launcher, the rest are going to get stomped

Community punishment is not a good or effective punishment, imho. One would think Israel would have decent enough intelligence (especially with us as a lapdog) to pinpoint people, locations, etc.

/but then again what do I know

They do. They just don't give a shiat who they kill.

/I'll go ahead and call myself an anti-Semite to save some time

Party Boy: Really? Strait closure versus closing borders and naval blockade.

No, you're absolutely right, closing a strait as an act of war and declaring your desire to wipe out someone is EXACTLY the same as to close borders to stop suicide bombers and quell rocket fires and saying "If you stop we'll reopen them again".

The exact same thing.

Wolfmanjames: Not necesarially. Hamas isthe Muslim Brotherhood of 'Palestine' and Egypt, though giving Israel pro forma condemnation has not opened its border and blamed Hamas publically for the bloodshed. There is little love for the MB in the Egyptian governemnt.

Its a growing stress between Mubarak's "government" and his people

Tatsuma: As long as the Mubarak regime is propped up by US aid, he will shut up and do as he's told.

Just like Anwar Sadat was a good Russian lapdog and did exactly as they..... oh wait, he got another rich sponsor and dumped the Russians. Good thing China (or even a resurgent Russia) has no interest in damaging US relations with other countries.

Tatsuma: Just because a serial killer who likes to rape his victims, dismember them, then rape then again also volunteers in a homeless shelter, adopts kittens and helps old ladies cross the street doesn't mean he doesn't deserve to fry on the electric chair.

Psychopathic acts like dropping WP in civillian areas? Don't think we've forgotten about that little trick.

Tatsuma: The arabs inside of Israel have more right in Israel than in any of their other countries, so your analogy definitely doesn't work there.

Good thing I'm not talking about Arabs in Israel. I'm talking about those arab worms/dogs (using the language of Israeli politicians) who live in the 'Palestinian' areas. Justice would be Israel absorbing the land and having to grant citizenship to the Palestinians, and provide aid and services.

Copy-Paste all my previous arguments to this thread.

Tatsuma: The exact same thing.

Closing a strait and blockading a region looks more involved to me.

Blockades are acts of war.

I don't even have to bust out the SUMMON TATSUMA card these days.

/Couldn't anyway, cuz I'm at work
//Hey, Tatsuma

Party Boy: Even in Israel's case, this deviates. Mubarak is feeling some strain right now on Gaza

Hamas openly sides with the Muslim Brotherhood (of whom they're an offshoot to begin with) and thus Mubarak will do nothing that empowers them. That's why his regime helped Israel to strike Hamas in the beginning of the conflict.

Bored Horde: If you were worried about collateral damage, you wouldn't fly jets around and drop thousand pound bombs into densely populated areas. You'd helicopter in some troops, land on the roof, and arrest the people of interest. Or are we sanctioning assassinations again?

Good idea, let's send Israeli soldiers on suicide missions, it's going to make things better.

Is that really what you're suggesting? That's about as retarded as the guy who said "Well, just stop rocket fire by installing snipers and killing the cells".

YupThazMe: What do you suggest we do?

Go back inside and finish the job.

Bored Horde: Good thing I'm not talking about Arabs in Israel.

Someone will also need to define le'um and Leumiut Ysrailit for the thread and specify how theres a difference between citizen and nationality. Its one of the confusions we have in the US, as we dont have the two different terms.

Man On Fire: 40yoVirgin: Skail: if that last retard happens to have a rocket launcher, the rest are going to get stomped

Community punishment is not a good or effective punishment, imho. One would think Israel would have decent enough intelligence (especially with us as a lapdog) to pinpoint people, locations, etc.

/but then again what do I know

that's what this last incursion was about. collateral damage happens anyway.

Incorrect, the incursion was all about collective punishment. (new window) (The very end is very illustrative).

Tatsuma: and thus Mubarak will do nothing that empowers them.

Party Boy: Its a growing stress between Mubarak's "government" and his people

Party Boy: Tatsuma: No it's not, it's in fact retarded to even make such a comparison.

Really? Strait closure versus closing borders and naval blockade.

Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egyptian forces in response to Egypt's closing of the Straits.

We're not talking about an Egyptian closure of Israels land and sea borders. Just some straits.


And they closed the Suez to traffic to Israel.

Take a look at the map of Israel, then or now. Remeber, that in 1967 they relied entierly on sea and air traffic for imports. With no acess to the Red Sea, that means no trade to East Asia or Africa without going aroun the Med. That' would strangle Israel econmically.

And Party Boy, that was a blocakde. It was an act of war. So is shooting hundreds of rockets.

Steve Zodiac: Just like Anwar Sadat was a good Russian lapdog and did exactly as they..... oh wait, he got another rich sponsor and dumped the Russians. Good thing China (or even a resurgent Russia) has no interest in damaging US relations with other countries.

That's why I said "As long as". We'll cross that hypothetical bridge once we make it there.

/Also, regional stability is as important to the Chinese than Americans, so even if Mubarak was now backed by the commies, they would still not permit him to go to war with Israel or to inflame tensions.

Bored Horde: Psychopathic acts like dropping WP in civillian areas? Don't think we've forgotten about that little trick.

Nothing wrong there, it wasn't used on civilians.

Party Boy: Blockades are acts of war.

No, the "shooting thousands of rockets and sending suicide bombers" were the acts of war, the blockade just a reaction to that.

You're usually a smart yet heavily biased person when it comes to this conflict, but those kind of arguments would not even be dignified by czarangelus, mate.

Bored Horde: Good thing I'm not talking about Arabs in Israel.

So you admit yourself that it's not apartheid. Good.

phalaeo: +1 for subby.

Agreed.

Party Boy: Party Boy: Its a growing stress between Mubarak's "government" and his people

A "growing" stress? He's a dictator who constantly cracks down on his people. The stress was there to begin with.

It's amazing how quickly the oppressed turn into the oppressors, once they get the upper hand.

Of course, Balfour and the Brits are mostly to blame for this. Everybody since then has just been stumbling along in his idiotic path.

Came for the Tatsuma Party Boy thread.

/staying with popcorn

Bored Horde 2009-01-25 01:01:39 PM
Hamas collect the garbage, run several medical clinics, run most of the schools, and dole out lots of emergency supplies.""

// so they're in the teamsters union?

Bored Horde: Psychopathic acts like dropping WP in civillian areas? Don't think we've forgotten about that little trick.

WP can be used for smoke or illumination. Even in civilian areas. I saw that clip and were it used for a weapon then there'd be a hell of a lot more damage and that's what they'd be filming.

Maybe the IDF was being reckless in the use of its flares, smoke grenades, but that's a bit different than a war crime.

Party Boy

When you talk about opening the gaza crossings you are talking about land routes into israel. What would the consequence to peace be after a few suicide bombings?

also, i don't really understand the comparison with the situation in gaza to the 6 day war. Gaza boundaries with israel are not the same as international water ways. Israels land boundaries with every arab nation were closed from 48 - never a cause for war. No trade, no electricity, no water no nothing, besides the occasional incursion of fedayeen. That's the honest comparison.

Wolfmanjames: That' would strangle Israel econmically.

Wolfmanjames: that was a blocakde. It was an act of war

Blockade. Act of war.

Party Boy

it was the closing of an international water way that was an act of war. again israels land boundaries were closed since 48.

Tatsuma: The stress was there to begin with.

And its growing. Its a problem.

BoozePenguin: What would the consequence to peace be after a few suicide bombings?

also, i don't really understand the comparison with the situation in gaza to the 6 day war. Gaza boundaries with israel are not the same as international water ways.

The reason why I bring it up is that 1) blockades are recognized as acts of war. 2) 1967 is so stunningly pertinent not just in the recent iteration of border arguments, but that Israel justified its preemptive attack on an egyptian preemptive strait closure on the closure of borders. I've seen this cited here again and again. Well... Here is a whole blockade.

BoozePenguin: it was the closing of an international water way that was an act of war.

There you have it. You have your answer for
BoozePenguin: understand the comparison with the situation in gaza to the 6 day war.

The ongoing blockade is a problem that Mitchell is pointing out and one that is historically very relevant.

Party Boy

Egypts land boundaries and crossing were closed since 48. The straight of tiran was an international water way that egypt never had the authority to close.

They could however like every arab country did close their crossings into israel and give them nothing. they did it for decades.

War Making and State Making as Organized Crime

This goes all the sides involved


/I've never heard of jesusradicals.com, just linking to their convenient pdf

what i'm saying is israel has a right to keep it's crossing closed for ever.

the crossings between egypt are another issue, and the waterways are another part of full sovereignty which hamas simply hasn't achieved.

So you have the blockade issue. Mitchell also goes on about settlers and rockets. Rogue elements on both sides threaten peace. I remember when Sharon thought civil war was going to erupt over the Gaza withdrawal.

Mitchell has his work cut out to just build trust