They should be! Long over due.

Yeah, after 9/11, some were angry with Bush and Rubs for the carnage, and it only took 7 years and Constitutional term limits to get rid of him!

Terrorists hiding their weapons at civilians' homes ? firing from civilian homes ? terrorizing the locals so they'll fear for their lives when a thought about speaking against Hamas comes to mind ?

Now that's shocking. Absolutely SHOCKING.

And its about time, too.

People get the government they deserve and these people voted for a bunch of murderous, lying cowards.


And 'TheOther'? Don't be a jackass.

TappingTheVein: Terrorists hiding their weapons at civilians' homes ? firing from civilian homes ? terrorizing the locals so they'll fear for their lives when a thought about speaking against Hamas comes to mind ?

Thank God for the Third Amendment!

I wish I could believe they really are angry.

Or at least angry enough to do something about it.

Good for them. I hope this leads to their removal. When Hamas is gone Israel needs to pony up some cash to rebuild all the crap they blew up. They also need to start respecting the moderate Palestinians more so we don't have to hear about this idiotic childish battling between these two ever again. Both sides need to just grow the fark up. It's ridiculous.

mfaby: And its about time, too.

People get the government they deserve and these people voted for a bunch of murderous, lying cowards.


And 'TheOther'? Don't be a jackass.

I thought the same thing when Bush won in 2004.

If this anger is widespread enough an dIsrael plays it's cards right they could pull of the same kind of turn-around there was in Europe after the fall of Berlin.

I think if this is true and many of the Gazans are that angry than this would be the time for the UN to step up or some other group of countries with lot's of money and some moderate rhetoric and rebuild this thing.

Hopefully Israel will exhibit some sort of reasonable and rational response for a change.

/Bombing a civilian population into total submission works but it sure is morally questionable.

As to Gaza is Hamas, so art Republicans to America.

People get the government they deserve and these people voted for a bunch of murderous, lying cowards.

Something like 20% of the Palestinians in Gaza voted for Hamas. Even Bush had more of the populace behind him.

mfaby: People get the government they deserve and these people voted for a bunch of murderous, lying cowards.

So did the United States.

And 'TheOther'? Don't be a jackass.

Don't be a naive fanboi. Even if the Palestinians regret selecting Hamas for their government, it may take a while to make a change...especially now that the Gaza Strip version of 'Never Forget!'-patriotic self-censorship will kick in and sustain Hamas.

Facetious_Speciest: Something like 20% of the Palestinians in Gaza voted for Hamas. Even Bush had more of the populace behind him.

Yeah, about 50% of the US voters were farking retards.

See, now here's where we can all agree that yeah, they should be pissed at Hamas. I doubt many here (even among those who find fault with Israel's actions) would shed a tear if Hamas' constituency decided that enough was enough and tossed them out (possibly into a pit of vipers).

?

Awful... just awful.

Maybe those farkwits will learn one day, though.

The problem is that there isn't an effective way of getting rid of hamas. They hide in the community in which they infest. Although going through Gaza and asking who is hamas, and serving those who answer yes with a 9mm or 5.56x45 sandwitch would be a good start.

I wish them luck in getting rid of Hamas, considering Hamas' tendency to silence dissenters with a bullet to the head...

TheOther: Yeah, after 9/11, some were angry with Bush and Rubs for the carnage, and it only took 7 years and Constitutional term limits to get rid of him!

IIRC good ol' W's second term was won only by electoral college, and not by popular vote.

When Hamas is gone Israel needs to pony up some cash to rebuild all the crap they blew up.

Like the Germans should pay for all the U2's they sailed into London during WWII? Just when did this idea that the victor should pay for the damage the enemy sustained take hold? War should be ugly and damaging and make the other side think twice before repeating the same mistake.

But I doubt the Islamists in Gaza are ever gonna give it up. Especially if they get their shiat fixed for free. Let Jimmah Carter build a half dozen homes for them and call it even.

w_houle: TheOther: Yeah, after 9/11, some were angry with Bush and Rubs for the carnage, and it only took 7 years and Constitutional term limits to get rid of him!

IIRC good ol' W's second term was won only by electoral college, and not by popular vote.

That was his first term. He had a clear lead in the popular vote in the 2004 race.

This was always going to be Hamas's problem once in government, because they have fewer people to blame (which is a bit of a problem when you sell yourself as a resistance outfit)

I would also imagine that, once the bravado is stripped away, your average Palestinian is deeply troubled by the upcoming Israeli election

Biological Ali: w_houle: TheOther: Yeah, after 9/11, some were angry with Bush and Rubs for the carnage, and it only took 7 years and Constitutional term limits to get rid of him!

IIRC good ol' W's second term was won only by electoral college, and not by popular vote.

That was his first term. He had a clear lead in the popular vote in the 2004 race.

That's a facepalm that makes me want to puke.

flannelled fool: Just when did this idea that the victor should pay for the damage the enemy sustained take hold?

Given the sheer amount of goodwill Israel could buy by financing reconstruction, it would be extremely stupid for them to not pay at least a part of the total cost.

War should be ugly and damaging and make the other side think twice before repeating the same mistake.

Yeah, that philosophy worked wonders after WWI...

Biological Ali:

War should be ugly and damaging and make the other side think twice before repeating the same mistake.

Yeah, that philosophy worked wonders after WWI...

Yeah, it took a couple wars before the Germans "got it." Just like it will take the Gazan's a world of hurt before they "get it." Those that do not learn from history are bound to annoy the hell out of me.

Angry Palestinians? No way.

It doesn't really matter if Hamas is thrown out. Ultimately whoever replaces them will be as violent or worse. People get angry when they are bombed and invaded. They will want revenge. Israel's reason for invading was missiles being fired into Israel. Palestine's reason for firing missiles is Israels control of the border, which destroys the local Palestinian economy and permitting settlements into territory that previously, and very recently, was Palestinian.

Both sides say the only thing the other side 'respects' is violence. The leaders who gain the most public support with their own people are those who promise a 'tough line' when dealing with the other side. Any population that feels it has been humiliated is NOT going to elect or support leaders who talk of concession and reconciliation. If the current leaders on Hamas are not seen as tough enough or smart enough then at the very least the leaders will be replaced, or another group which promises effective retribution will gain support. The practical effect of most of the lulls in fighting, and even negotiations that have taken place, is to allow one side or the other, or both, a chance to re-arm and gain or re-assure allies and gather intelligence. When one side or another feels it has nothing more to gain by talking, it uses a previous incident to attack. And if it seems successful, these actions will be popular. They are, after all, the only things that The Enemy understands, and being less than human, there is no action too cruel to inflict upon them.

And so the cycle starts over.
And over.
And over.
And over.
And over.
And over.
And over.


/And are we any different?

FTA: "There will never be a rebellion against Hamas. It would be suicide."

Depends on the manner of the rebellion.

Hamas agents move in to civilian area? "Rebelling" civilians peacefully pack up what possessions they can, and move elsewhere.



/Someone needs to translate Larry Niven's short story "Grammar Lesson" into Arabic.

SpaceyCat: I wish them luck in getting rid of Hamas, considering Hamas' tendency to silence dissenters with a bullet to the head...

Well, to be fair, IDF seems to endorse that policy.

Hamas sounds worse than the KGB or Gestapo, and I think the sooner they realize that's who hamas is; the easier it will be for Gaza to get rid of them.

TheOther: SpaceyCat: I wish them luck in getting rid of Hamas, considering Hamas' tendency to silence dissenters with a bullet to the head...

Well, to be fair, IDF seems to endorse that policy.

How? Is the IDF giving Hamas the bullets? The IDF isn't endorsing anything that Hamas does... Oh, that isn't what you meant?

flannelled fool: Yeah, it took a couple wars before the Germans "got it." Just like it will take the Gazan's a world of hurt before they "get it." Those that do not learn from history are bound to annoy the hell out of me.

In order to learn from history, it's somewhat important to have learned the history in the first place. The American postwar involvement in Germany wasn't about trying to make them "get it"... that line of reasoning fell out of favour after the catastrophic failure of the 'Treaty of Versailles' school of diplomacy. If you're interested, here is a good place to start.

/or was that just a troll? i can't really tell anymore

To take an analogy to the absurd:
A bunch of Mexicans in lousy third world housing begin lobbing rockets into the U.S. The U.S. responds by leveling a couple of Mexican towns. Rockets stop flying.

Why the fark should we reward Mexicans with brand new houses? So that 3 1/2 years later when the plumbing is shot, the copper is torn out of the walls and sold for scrap, and the houses are dumps they start shooting rockets again?

FTFA: In the 2006 elections Hamas won the majority with their message of change, said Sadala, who earned a living in the building business. Gesticulating wildly, the 52-year-old surveyed the ruins of the bedroom: "That is the change that they brought about. We were blasted back 2,000 years."

Change they believed in...

flannelled fool: To take an analogy to the absurd:
A bunch of Mexicans in lousy third world housing begin lobbing rockets into the U.S. The U.S. responds by leveling a couple of Mexican towns. Rockets stop flying.

Why the fark should we reward Mexicans with brand new houses? So that 3 1/2 years later when the plumbing is shot, the copper is torn out of the walls and sold for scrap, and the houses are dumps they start shooting rockets again?

Yep, definitely a troll. Had me going for a while, so I guess there's that.

/ 7/10

flannelled fool: To take an analogy to the absurd:
A bunch of Mexicans in lousy third world housing begin lobbing rockets into the U.S. The U.S. Jews in German ghettos begin lobbing rockets into Germany, the Germans responds by leveling a couple of Mexican towns Jewish ghettos. Rockets stop flying.

Why the fark should we reward Mexicans Jews with brand new houses? So that 3 1/2 years later when the plumbing is shot, the copper is torn out of the walls and sold for scrap, and the houses are dumps they start shooting rockets again?
FTFY

In order to learn from history, it's somewhat important to have learned the history in the first place.

Let's talk about the history of the Middle East back to when some caravan raider got visited by some apparition who told him to kill all the Jews and infidels. That's what this whole Gaza story is about. A 14 century old battle, that could easily go another 14 centuries.

Hat Madder: FTFA: In the 2006 elections Hamas won the majority with their message of change, said Sadala, who earned a living in the building business. Gesticulating wildly, the 52-year-old surveyed the ruins of the bedroom: "That is the change that they brought about. We were blasted back 2,000 years."

Change they believed in...

Oh... BAMA! That's beautiful!

flannelled fool: Like the Germans should pay for all the U2's they sailed into London during WWII? Just when did this idea that the victor should pay for the damage the enemy sustained take hold? War should be ugly and damaging and make the other side think twice before repeating the same mistake.

And you learned what from the Treaty of Versailles?

Biological Ali: Yep, definitely a troll. Had me going for a while, so I guess there's that.

Well, damn.

WorldCitizen: flannelled fool: Like the Germans should pay for all the U2's they sailed into London during WWII? Just when did this idea that the victor should pay for the damage the enemy sustained take hold? War should be ugly and damaging and make the other side think twice before repeating the same mistake.

And you learned what from the Treaty of Versailles?

That they stilllllll haven't found what they're looking for?

bu...but...bush in two. So close.

WorldCitizen:

And you learned what from the Treaty of Versailles?

That Adolf Hitler would never have risen to power if the Germans didn't have to pay reparations? That the presence of the League of Nations in Germany was able to prevent what exactly?

That's one guy being quoted , even assuming Spiegal are legit (for all I know they could be a German Fox News,cherry picking quotes to further some agenda) it may not prove an outbreak of common sense in Gaza.

I hope it does though, firing random rockets at Israeli cities will never accomplish anything except IDF reprisals.

Living well is the only real shot Palestinians have at revenge and they can only accomplish peace and prosperity with peace and using non-violent methods and moral force to court world opinion and make Israel end economic sanctions and blockades.

No missiles means no excuses for blockades.

w_houle: WorldCitizen: flannelled fool: Like the Germans should pay for all the U2's they sailed into London during WWII? Just when did this idea that the victor should pay for the damage the enemy sustained take hold? War should be ugly and damaging and make the other side think twice before repeating the same mistake.

And you learned what from the Treaty of Versailles?

That they stilllllll haven't found what they're looking for?

YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH YEAH!

w_houle: How? Is the IDF giving Hamas the bullets? The IDF isn't endorsing anything that Hamas does... Oh, that isn't what you meant?

The IDF endorses silencing dissenters with a bullet to the head...actually, they prefer an airstrike, but Hamas doesn't have the resources.

w_houle: The problem is that there isn't an effective way of getting rid of hamas. They hide in the community in which they infest. Although going through Gaza and asking who is hamas, and serving those who answer yes with a 9mm or 5.56x45 sandwitch would be a good start.

Even if IDF could go door to door and figure out who was in Hamas, and that the international community wouldn't go apeshiat if they arrested all of them. Even if Hamas somehow ceased to exist, or decided to recognize Israel and not be as violent. The day after that happened some other violent group would spring up and every extremist muslim in the world would be looking at how to funnel money/weapons to the new group.

TheOther: The IDF endorses silencing dissenters with a bullet to the head...actually, they prefer an airstrike, but Hamas doesn't have the resources.

I guess I missed when the IDF silenced people in Israel protesting the 06 war with airstrikes.

Or maybe you are full of shiat.

Wow.... the Bush hate had to wait until the second post on a completely unrelated post?

Amazing...

About Gaza and the Palestinians? Good.... sounds like they're finally getting angry at the right people.

Finally. It may be nearly impossible for the Palestinians to get rid of Hamas, but they're the only ones who can do it.