First Rick Warren, and now this.

Only America politicises this issue to the extent that it has. Get over it and move on. There are far more important things going on that need attention.

Good work Obama. Now, next issue?

snuff3r: Only America politicises this issue to the extent that it has. Get over it and move on. There are far more important things going on that need attention.

Good work Obama. Now, next issue?

Oh, if you think the politico-religionists are going to let it rest--I predict that the Obama presidency will be a shot in the arm for the moribund Liberal Bashing Industry. Every common-sense thing he does will be raised to the level of a national emergency and an assault on America, Jesus, and Budweiser.

.

DistendedPendulusFrenulum: Oh, if you think the politico-religionists are going to let it rest--I predict that the Obama presidency will be a shot in the arm for the moribund Liberal Bashing Industry. Every common-sense thing he does will be raised to the level of a national emergency and an assault on America, Jesus, and Budweiser.

Maybe, if everything is raised to the level of national emergency, maybe these people will realize that their talking heads are full of crap when things fail to fall apart.

Everything would be so much better if people didn't debate issues. Right, Anakin? I mean, Barack?

DistendedPendulusFrenulum: Every common-sense thing he does will be raised to the level of a national emergency and an assault on America, Jesus, and Budweiser.

pretty much the strategy the Republicans used to lose the election, so obviously they'll keep hammering at it.

Wait, so Obama now approves of using US taxpayer money to fund the killing of brown people overseas?

On the one hand, I respect the pro-life position in theory. It is eminently reasonable and understandable and you can't really argue against it - it comes down to a gut judgment call.

But in the real world, pro-lifers are generally idiots on the issue. They are not consistent with their own beliefs, are too cowardly to actually follow through on their claims, and are horrible at actually presenting socially acceptable alternatives.

HagarTheHorrible: Wait, so Obama now approves of using US taxpayer money to fund the killing of brown people overseas?

People?

In other news, this is a picture of a butterfly:

madmann: People?

In other news, this is a picture of a butterfly:

No, that's a caterpillar.

However, this is a picture of a butterfly that will never exist.



What better way to get rid of something than to keep it from existing in the first place?

SphericalTime: Maybe, if everything is raised to the level of national emergency, maybe these people will realize that their talking heads are full of crap when things fail to fall apart.

Do you really expect the people that supported Bush at his worst have the slightest bit of intelligence?

HagarTheHorrible: Wait, so Obama now approves of using US taxpayer money to fund the killing of brown people overseas?

It might be better argued, that putting a gag order on anyone who receives aid, in ANY of their programs--not just our own funds, but from Europe, Asia, or even Africa, or even THEIR OWN MONIES as well--is perhaps presumptuous.

If the US imposed a gag order on just the programs they funded, that would be one thing, but the US position over the last few years has been to impose limits not just on how our money is spent, but how anyone's money is spent, if they want any aid at all.

I thought that couples staying fruitless was kinda the idea?

madmann: People?

The point lies in how you define "Person". Most binary definitions have problems, because the question is more complicated than a simple "yes/no" can readily encompass. (Does a person have to be human?)

However, more complicated multi-state demarcations confuse simple minds.

HagarTheHorrible: What better way to get rid of something than to keep it from existing in the first place?

And? By your own words, it doesn't exist. So what's the problem?

I kept several songs from existing this morning. I didn't write them. Of course, that balances out with the car wreck that didn't happen last night because I love my car and would rather slam on my brakes than let some asshole buy me a new one. Here's a made-up yet true stat: Over 99% of all things that could exist don't.

If your argument boils down to "these things that don't exist, I personally believe that they should", I don't know what to tell you. Join the support group. It's called "Everybody". We meet on the third planet from the Sun.

/we have cookies.

abb3w: madmann: People?

The point lies in how you define "Person". Most binary definitions have problems, because the question is more complicated than a simple "yes/no" can readily encompass. (Does a person have to be human?)

However, more complicated multi-state demarcations confuse simple minds.

Awww, you think you're all that with your "intelligence" and "logic" and "book learnin'".

/Ya know I'm a big fan...
/But sometimes it gets painful to watch you.
/Like watching Holyfield take on Urkel.

It might also be noted, that the gag order was on more than JUST abortion. Using the yard stick of abstinence hasn't really worked out all that well here, so we are exporting it en masse?

It might be noted as well that the previous Administration didn't seem to have a problem with China's tactics with birth control--since we rely upon them as trading partners and we can't bully them economically.

Don't worry, conservatives. If you shut your eyes real tight...then abstinence only education will work eventually.

DamnYankees: On the one hand, I respect the pro-life position in theory. It is eminently reasonable and understandable and you can't really argue against it - it comes down to a gut judgment call.

But in the real world, pro-lifers are generally idiots on the issue. They are not consistent with their own beliefs, are too cowardly to actually follow through on their claims, and are horrible at actually presenting socially acceptable alternatives.

Yeah, if you believe that even a zygote contains a soul, you're not going to be convinced that abortion under ANY circumstance is OK. I take that back - maybe when the mother's life is in danger.
But when these same people who believe this also believe it's OK to torture and say things like abuse is not a justifiable reason for divorce (I'm looking at you Rick Warren) then it's hard to take them seriously on anything else.

Teela: Yeah, if you believe that even a zygote contains a soul, you're not going to be convinced that abortion under ANY circumstance is OK. I take that back - maybe when the mother's life is in danger.
But when these same people who believe this also believe it's OK to torture and say things like abuse is not a justifiable reason for divorce (I'm looking at you Rick Warren) then it's hard to take them seriously on anything else.

It's not just that. Think of what it means if you really believe a fetus is a full human being:

Women who abort should be tried for murder.
Women who smoke or drink while pregnant need to be tried for child endangerment.
Every miscarriage should come with a full blown funeral.
And maybe most of all - if you really truly thought ever fetus was a human and abortion had resulted in the deaths of 40 million human beings...wouldn't you try a whole lot harder to end it? Wouldn't you become guerillas? Who the hell would allow their government to permit the murder of 40 million people and do nothing but picket against it?

madmann: And? By your own words, it doesn't exist. So what's the problem?

Never said there was a problem; in fact I'm in favor of the new policy. I merely put forth a question alluding to the irony of a "brown" US President wanting to fund programs to eliminate foreign "brown" people from existing. It was intended to be slightly humorous, but as I apparently need to be reminded every year or so, the Politics tab is no place for that.

But to play along...

I kept several songs from existing this morning. I didn't write them.

That's abstinence, not abortion. If you had a half-written song and I convinced you to toss it in the bin, that's abortion.

/we have cookies.

It's only a draw if there's punch, too.

DamnYankees: On the one hand, I respect the pro-life position in theory. It is eminently reasonable and understandable and you can't really argue against it - it comes down to a gut judgment call.

Oh, I don't know about that. Their argument fails at the point where they make it black and white: "A fertilized egg is a person." That statement is both patently false (if for no other reason that it will die without the mother's womb or some facsimile), and draws a line as arbitrary as any other: Every sperm and every egg is a potential life, women kill a potential life on a monthly basis, guys do it by the millions whenever they jackoff. "Conception" is as arbitrary a cut-off line for destroying "life" as "viable outside the womb", except the latter actually is based on something beyond dart-throwing at a timeline.

YAY!

FREE UNCONSEQUENTIAL SEX FOR EVERYONE!

IT'S OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!!!

Neeek: "Conception" is as arbitrary a cut-off line for destroying "life" as "viable outside the womb", except the latter actually is based on something beyond dart-throwing at a timeline.

I think both are arbitrary if you think about it in a vacuum. I don't think 'viability' is actually a very good definition because it has no bearing on whether the person has independent rights. A 1 month old child needs just as much support as a 1 month old fetus, it just so happens it doesn't need it inside of another human being.

DistendedPendulusFrenulum: snuff3r: Only America politicises this issue to the extent that it has. Get over it and move on. There are far more important things going on that need attention.

Good work Obama. Now, next issue?

Oh, if you think the politico-religionists are going to let it rest--I predict that the Obama presidency will be a shot in the arm for the moribund Liberal Bashing Industry. Every common-sense thing he does will be raised to the level of a national emergency and an assault on America, Jesus, and Budweiser.

.
Budweiser is an assault on us.

Why does sex hate America?

DarthBrooks: Everything would be so much better if people didn't debate issues. Right, Anakin? I mean, Barack?

Actually, this issue has been debated, with one side having suffered a spectacular loss. It's not so much a matter of the debate not taking place, as it is of the debate being over.

DamnYankees: I think both are arbitrary if you think about it in a vacuum.

aborted fetuses cannot think.

He doesn't want to legeslate morality?! Wow! That's some change I can believe in!

NYZooMan: YAY!

FREE UNCONSEQUENTIAL SEX FOR EVERYONE!

IT'S OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!!!

Well, that megalomaniac son of a coont shouldn't have given me a dick and made boobs so awesome then.

NYZooMan: YAY!

FREE UNCONSEQUENTIAL SEX FOR EVERYONE!

IT'S OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!!!

You can say that again.

NYZooMan: YAY!

FREE UNCONSEQUENTIAL SEX FOR EVERYONE!

IT'S OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!!!

bulldg4life: Don't worry, conservatives. If you shut your eyes real tight pray real hard...then abstinence only education will work eventually.

FTFY

Remember fundies... god is the biggest aborter of life of them all: what is it, 1 in 8 pregnancies results in miscarriage?

snuff3r: Only America politicises this issue to the extent that it has. Get over it and move on. There are far more important things going on that need attention.

Good work Obama. Now, next issue?

Absolutely correct. The abortion issue has driven a lot of "pro-lifers" to vote for a man that started a war and subsequent unrest which has killed hundreds of thousands.

The goal of any activist should be to reduce the occurrence of what they find objectionable, not make an empty gesture by voting for one President or another based on their personal beliefs. We can almost all agree that abortion is unfortunate. Liberal policy works against the factors that drive women to get abortions in the first place, rather than trying to solve the problem by criminalizing the act.

NYZooMan: YAY!

FREE UNCONSEQUENTIAL SEX FOR EVERYONE!

IT'S OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!!!

It's about time you saw the light.

NYZooMan: YAY!

FREE UNCONSEQUENTIAL SEX FOR EVERYONE!

IT'S OUR GOD-GIVEN RIGHT!!!

You're god damn right it is. And there's not a thing you can do to stop it.

Obama says family planning has been used as a political wedge and has "no desire to continue this stale and fruitless debate." Well, it will definitely be fruitless

Translation: me and my party will fund abortions, internationally and domestically, but let's not talk about it.

DamnYankees: And maybe most of all - if you really truly thought ever fetus was a human and abortion had resulted in the deaths of 40 million human beings...wouldn't you try a whole lot harder to end it?

Non-violent protest > terrorism

mccallcl: Non-violent protest > terrorism

You don't non-violently protest a genocide which has been going on for 35 years and is less likely than ever to stop.

Also, they absolutely *SUCK* at non-violent protest if there intention is to truly change the laws.

Smacky the Frog: Remember fundies... god is the biggest aborter of life of them all: what is it, 1 in 8 pregnancies results in miscarriage?

More like 1 in 4, and it gets higher with age.

Oh my god, you mean the government's no longer going to prohibit people from talking about a subject? That sounds bad!

Quick question: can US funds be used to provide abortions now? Or just to tell women what an abortion is and where they can go to get one?

Anything that is so polarized on both sides should be settled very simply. Give people the information they need to make a decision on their own.

If you don't agree with how I think about an issue, I guarantee you don't want me handing out advice to people looking for answers, and stifling your input. Likewise I don't want you handing out your advice and blocking my input. So we give people options and information, and let them sort it out.

Xenu's Giant Pink Replicock: Anything that is so polarized on both sides should be settled very simply. Give people the information they need to make a decision on their own.

If you don't agree with how I think about an issue, I guarantee you don't want me handing out advice to people looking for answers, and stifling your input. Likewise I don't want you handing out your advice and blocking my input. So we give people options and information, and let them sort it out.

you mean, like "teaching the controversy"?

citizen905: Smacky the Frog: Remember fundies... god is the biggest aborter of life of them all: what is it, 1 in 8 pregnancies results in miscarriage?

More like 1 in 4, and it gets higher with age.

It's actually impossible to know, but it's probably closer to 3 in 5. That would include the miscarriages when the woman had no idea she was pregnant and had no idea she miscarried.

Breunthor: Xenu's Giant Pink Replicock: Anything that is so polarized on both sides should be settled very simply. Give people the information they need to make a decision on their own.

If you don't agree with how I think about an issue, I guarantee you don't want me handing out advice to people looking for answers, and stifling your input. Likewise I don't want you handing out your advice and blocking my input. So we give people options and information, and let them sort it out.

you mean, like "teaching the controversy"?

exactly. only in this case, there's an actual controversy with a wide range of personal beliefs across both sides of the argument, rather than a handful of nut jobs arguing with the entirety of the scientific record.

I want to start an Abortion-Bus abortion-at-your-door service. That would rule.

I think abortion on demand is morally wrong. I don't like the government defining my morals either. My wife and I would never have a child of ours aborted, but I'm still highly pro-choice.

DamnYankees: On the one hand, I respect the pro-life position in theory. It is eminently reasonable and understandable and you can't really argue against it - it comes down to a gut judgment call.

But in the real world, pro-lifers are generally idiots on the issue. They are not consistent with their own beliefs, are too cowardly to actually follow through on their claims, and are horrible at actually presenting socially acceptable alternatives.

Not to mention, many consider themselves entitled to abortions while the poor are "sluts" and "skanks" for getting them.

When Republicans controlled all three branches of government for 6 years, (and the congress for 12), and did not end abortion. It should be clear to anyone that there really is no anti-abortion party. There is the party that talks about being anti-abortion, and the party that doesn't.