Don't worry, the final number will be much higher and I strongly doubt that many jobs will be created.

GaryPDX: Don't worry, the final number will be much higher and I strongly doubt that many jobs will be created.

And you'd just love it if you were right, huh Gary? Why do you hate America?

GaryPDX: Don't worry, the final number will be much higher and I strongly doubt that many jobs will be created.

From your analysis, I can confidently say that this will be a resounding success leading to the quick rebound of the American economy.

John Paul Jones: Why do you hate America?

America ran over his dog and put a flaming bag of poop on his doorstep

bulldg4life: GaryPDX: Don't worry, the final number will be much higher and I strongly doubt that many jobs will be created.
From your analysis, I can confidently say that this will be a resounding success leading to the quick rebound of the American economy.

Be careful, dude. Gary has burned you before on his predictions. Oh, wait . . .



(On this current one, though, I'm afraid he may wind up being more right than wrong.)

John Paul Jones: Why do you hate America?

Yeah, toe the line citizen, or else we'll label you an America Hater.

In terms of typical government efficiency, that's not too bad.

lunchinlewis: Yeah, toe the line citizen, or else we'll label you an America Hater.

I see the irony is completely lost on you. Unsurprising.

lunchinlewis: Yeah, toe the line citizen, or else we'll label you an America Hater

yep. remember, we all voted for obama and america has come together as one to work on our problems with no rancor or disagreement.

we've finally achieved the shining city on the hill we've longed for so many decades. silver jumpsuits for all!

1. ...Wouldn't it be cheaper to just mail each of these workers a $40,000 check?

Yes, if the goal is to get people $40k once. Not so much if it's to create long term job growth.

2. ...So why would $800 billion more of the same suddenly end the recession?

Nobody said it'd end it suddenly. Also, that's like asserting that stitches wouldn't stop bleeding because a Flintstone's band-aid didn't work.

3. ...Every dollar lawmakers "inject" into the economy must first be taxed or borrowed out of the economy.

Borrowing it doesn't bring it out of the economy. Also, standard wisdom would dictate deficit spending in a recession, then reducing spending and running a surplus during good times. Like they ever do that, but still.

4. ...How does transferring money out of investment help?

By making that money available for other people to use credit.

5. ...wrongly assume every $1 of government spending increases the economy by approximately $1.60....By that logic, debt-ridden, big-government countries like Italy, France and Germany should be wealthier than America.

It's only true if you spend it on the right things, like not pensions and waterbeds for hobos.

6. ...$1 billion in highway "stimulus" can be spent creating 34,779 new construction jobs. But Congress must first borrow that $1 billion out of the private economy. Won't the private sector then lose the same number of jobs?

No, because you don't borrow "out" of the private economy, and it would be spend on private firms hiring people to build roads anyway.

7. ...More recently, Japan responded to a 1990 recession by passing 10 "stimulus" bills over 8 years (building the largest national debt in the industrialized world) -- and their economy remained stagnant. Why do lawmakers believe the same failed approach will succeed for the U.S. today?

See Japan now.

8. ...The economy sank because people over-borrowed

No it didn't.
How will adding $800 billion to the national debt (which will also raise interest rates) solve a recession

It won't, by itself. Careful and responsible spending of that $800B will.

And who will bail out the American taxpayer when the bill comes due?

That's the only part of this whole thing that makes any sense. Nobody will, probably.

So why are lawmakers planning another round of temporary tax rebates, followed by an increase in tax rates?

Because passing out money gets them elected, duh.

Given the 11,000 annual earmarks, why should taxpayers trust politicians to spend this money better than they would spend it themselves?

We shouldn't.

John Paul Jones: I see the irony is completely lost on you. Unsurprising.

You want to get the Irony Police involved in this too? Somebody is itching for a scrap, I see.

Cyberluddite: bulldg4life: GaryPDX: Don't worry, the final number will be much higher and I strongly doubt that many jobs will be created.
From your analysis, I can confidently say that this will be a resounding success leading to the quick rebound of the American economy.

Be careful, dude. Gary has burned you before on his predictions. Oh, wait . . .



(On this current one, though, I'm afraid he may wind up being more right than wrong.)

I'm glad you think making fun of my snark somehow makes up for the steaming load hooey coming from the Federal Government. I hope you don't regret voting for the guy.

DRTFA, but am i right in assuming that the analysis completely disregards the costs of doing nothing (loss of tax revenue due to the failing economy) and also disregards the benefits of action (the opposite, increased tax revenue due to an improving economy)?

burndtdan: DRTFA, but

"but I'm going to criticize it anyway."

Come on, man, you're better than that.

The Heritage Foundation also insisted that the economy would run like a well-oiled machine under Bush's leadership.

I RTFA and nowhere did I see any suggestions as to what a better course of action would be. Just meaningless criticisms.

Not that I expected anything better from someone with only a bachelor's degree in economics.

burndtdan: DRTFA

Nabb1: "but I'm going to criticize it anyway."

Come on, man, you're better than that.

He's on the payroll. It's his job to criticize without reading.

oldebayer: The Heritage Foundation also insisted that the economy would run like a well-oiled machine under Bush's leadership.

Do you realize Obama's stimulus package is more than both of Bush's combined? And on top of that he has already said there will be trillion dollar deficits for years to come? He got elected by large part in demonizing the Republicans spending habits. This isn't a little difference, this is a huge swindle, it makes BushCo look like cheesy penny pinchers.

America is just about out of money, we can't afford this. The "change" is turning out to be trying spending our way back to the way it was, a fast and loose economy. The gigantic lack of logic boggles the mind.

GaryPDX: He got elected by large part in demonizing the Republicans spending habits.

I don't agree with your premise. Not at all.

Nabb1: burndtdan: DRTFA, but

"but I'm going to criticize it anyway."

Come on, man, you're better than that.

i started off my post by saying i DNRTFA. i gave full disclosure.

Father Jack Hacket: GaryPDX: He got elected by large part in demonizing the Republicans spending habits.

I don't agree with your premise. Not at all.

Really? I guess 6 years of "Republican spending evil evil drunken sailors!!!!" mantra is just in my imagination then.

GaryPDX: The gigantic lack of logic boggles the mind.

So... much... irony...

i love it when these republican assholes suddenly get all fiscally responsible on us. i heard the minority whip on NPR yesterday saying that government spending has never gotten us out of any recession before or some shiat like that - as if FDR's new deal and WWII never farking happened.

look - no democrat wants to continue the republican tactic of borrowing and spending. but we are on the cusp of (or beyond the cusp of) the worst economic downturn since the great depression. it will take a new-deal-sized program to get us out of it. and if that means spending money on schools and roads - so be it. the republicans just want to bail out wall street bankers. look where that's got us so far...

GaryPDX: Father Jack Hacket: GaryPDX: He got elected by large part in demonizing the Republicans spending habits.

I don't agree with your premise. Not at all.

Really? I guess 6 years of "Republican spending evil evil drunken sailors!!!!" mantra is just in my imagination then.

Like most of what you say here.

GaryPDX: I'm glad you think making fun of my snark somehow makes up for the steaming load hooey coming from the Federal Government. I hope you don't regret voting for the guy.

Not 4 days before he even takes office you sycophant.

Do you realize Obama's stimulus package is more than both of Bush's combined? And on top of that he has already said there will be trillion dollar deficits for years to come? He got elected by large part in demonizing the Republicans spending habits. This isn't a little difference, this is a huge swindle, it makes BushCo look like cheesy penny pinchers.

I wonder if there was anything different between the two economies and how the stimulus packages were created. You don't think there could be, do you?

The gigantic lack of logic boggles the mind.

It does. But I don't think we're looking at the same lack of logic.

FlashHarry: i love it when these republican assholes suddenly get all fiscally responsible on us.

I just wish someone would, I don't care who. Spending during a recession is the right thing to do, and I hope it's spent on the right things. I also hope that it's cut back once we're out of the recession, and we can get a bit ahead of things.

Speaking of people on the payroll...

Dancin_In_Anson: Speaking of people on the payroll...

I wish I got paid to laugh at Gary. I'm unemployed right now and it'd be a sweet gig.

bulldg4life: I'm unemployed right now and it'd be a sweet gig.

That sucks. I've got no snark on that because I've been there. Good luck.

Nabb1: That sucks. I've got no snark on that because I've been there. Good luck.

*shrug*

Being out of work for more than a year after graduation with only a handful of interviews to show for it is amazingly good at motivating you to write a 30 page business plan for a small business idea.

GaryPDX: I'm glad you think making fun of my snark somehow makes up for the steaming load hooey coming from the Federal Government. I hope you don't regret voting for the guy.

As I said in my post, this time, I'm afraid that your prediction will turn out to be more correct than wrong, which is more than one can say about your nonstop "McCain is gonna win because Obama is a Marxist who would turn this country into a Soviet-style commie regime and so is Hillary OMFG OMFG" posts from a few months ago.

And I'm no Obama fanboy, and I fully expect those on the left (those who are paying attention, anyway) to be very disappointed in his presidency. Considering that the alternative was McCain/Palin, though, I can't see myself ever being disappointed that I voted for him over McCain and Caribou Barbie, regardless of how disappointing his presidency may turn out to be. Are you disappointed yet that you voted for that douchebag Dubya in 2004 over that douchebag Kerry?

The Heritage Foundation's numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. They fail to take into account future revenue generated through infrastructure investment.

For instance. The interstate highway system cost $425 Billion (adjusted for inflation) to build over a 35 year period. Total revenue per year for interstate freight trucking alone is estimated at $225 Billion.

In short that one infrastructure investment created wealth that is far greater than the yearly cost of the construction and maintenance.

Investments in educational infrastructure are more difficult to put into dollar and cents but create a comparatively generous return.

Code_Archeologist: For instance. The interstate highway system cost $425 Billion (adjusted for inflation) to build over a 35 year period. Total revenue per year for interstate freight trucking alone is estimated at $225 Billion.

Not sure 100% of that $225 billion can be counted as ROI, but I'm sure you can calculate how much the interstate system added to efficiency.

Cyberluddite: As I said in my post, this time, I'm afraid that your prediction will turn out to be more correct than wrong, which is more than one can say about your nonstop "McCain is gonna win because Obama is a Marxist who would turn this country into a Soviet-style commie regime and so is Hillary OMFG OMFG" posts from a few months ago.

You of all people should be able to recognize my snark factor, Joe..:) Anyhoo..I really do believe the forces at work are greater than the men who are trying to control them. It sure looks like a lot of people are panicking in Washington DC. Both sides are throwing money around like it's Zimbabwe..it's weird. America is gun shy about spending now. That's the change and the cause that will bring it down. Who's knows, things are happening at breakneck speed. I find it hard to imagine people in general are going to run out and start maxing out their credit cards anytime soon.

So i'm going to pay an extra $6,700 dollars over what period? 2 years? 10?

Honestly, it's worth it to me to have a good economy where i'm making enough to pay that debt off of the years than try to live paycheck to paycheck and having no ability to plan for the future.

GaryPDX: Anyhoo..I really do believe the forces at work are greater than the men who are trying to control them. It sure looks like a lot of people are panicking in Washington DC. Both sides are throwing money around like it's Zimbabwe..it's weird. America is gun shy about spending now. That's the change and the cause that will bring it down. Who's knows, things are happening at breakneck speed. I find it hard to imagine people in general are going to run out and start maxing out their credit cards anytime soon.

Yeah, I'm not optimistic either.

I'm so angry the nasty liberal is spending more than those fiscally conservative republicans who bailed out big business. Oh wait, the Republican executive spent a few trillion? Now I'm just angry!

John Paul Jones: GaryPDX: Don't worry, the final number will be much higher and I strongly doubt that many jobs will be created.

And you'd just love it if you were right, huh Gary? Why do you hate America?

It's simple economics. These "stimulus" plans will drag us into a depression just like they did back in the '30s.

This whole thing isn't stimulus...it's pork/earmarks under a different name.

Eliminate FICA. Of course, this also eliminates the opportunity for graft and corruption, so it'll never happen.

Why would you ever look at a new-deal style bailout plan solely in terms of number of jobs directly created and number of dollars spent per job? That way of looking at it is far too simplistic. It ignores indirect job savings (service, sales, and manufacturing industries that lose less business thanks to those jobs), and it ignores that something useful is being accomplished at the same time (hopefully).

But by all means, use bogus numbers to make it look bad. And maybe it is bad, but using those terms to describe the value of the plan is either ignorant or dishonest.

wut

the heritage foundation

Code_Archeologist: The Heritage Foundation's numbers ANYTHING should be taken with a grain of salt.

FTFY.

Seriously Gary, you couldn't find a Reason article or CATO report that said the same thing? At least those two have a shred of integrity. Heritage Foundation? You're not even trying to hide your troll now.

GaryPDX: Don't worry, the final number will be much higher and I strongly doubt that many jobs will be created.



Well since a broken clock is right more often then you are I guess that means things are going to work out great for everyone.

EatHam: FlashHarry: i love it when these republican assholes suddenly get all fiscally responsible on us.

I just wish someone would, I don't care who. Spending during a recession is the right thing to do, and I hope it's spent on the right things. I also hope that it's cut back once we're out of the recession, and we can get a bit ahead of things.

I share your hope, but I have a feeling that obama will get 4 years, during which time he fails to fix the world, and a shiny bran new party of the same people who ruined our nation during the last 8 will emerge with a brand new policy. But thats just a guess, I wouldn't put money on anything 4 years from now at this point.

Corvus: GaryPDX: Don't worry, the final number will be much higher and I strongly doubt that many jobs will be created.



Well since a broken clock is right more often then you are I guess that means things are going to work out great for everyone.

Didn't you hear? Whenever Gary's wrong, it's 'snark'.

There are some good points in the article, but each of them could equally be applied to Bush's actions over the last 8 years. I wonder how the Heritage foundation managed to contort their logic to support Bush all this time. It must be very liberating for Republicans to now be able to decry the same policies that their hero Bush put forth(although the scenario at this time actually provides more justification for thos policies).

This one is a whopper, however:

Temporary tax rebates were implemented in 1975, 2001 and 2008, and most economists agree they failed to help the economy. Long-term marginal tax rate reductions implemented in 1982 and 2003 both substantially increased economic growth.

No, most economists believe a temporary Keynesian stimulus, such as a tax rebate is the best method to life an economy out of recession (or make a recession less severe). Most economists also believe that long-term marginal tax rate decreases when not accompanies by corresponding spending cuts lead to long term deficits.

Maybe they surveyed "most economists" employed by the Heritage foundation.

GaryPDX: You of all people should be able to recognize my snark factor

I find it amusing that you are proud of your own intellectual dishonesty.

You know 90% of people on Fark actually believe the points they are trying to make and just aren't saying BS to try to sabotage others.

You do not understand what the term "snark" means. It doesn't mean to be intellectually dishonest like seem to think it does.