Didn't we invade Iraq and Afghanistan because their governments were doing this exact same shiat?

This story is from 2004... so what happened with the case?

Needs an OBVIOUS tag.

Primitive tribes with ancient blood feuds do this sort of thing all the time. Both sides are barbarians.

This is typical Israeli behavior regarding civilians. They kill them and then lie about the circumstances until the evidence shows what happened. We saw it with the UN school and are seeing it with the UN compound today. Israel claims initially that they were fired upon by militants and then retracts the statement later (a retraction that isn't reported on by US media)

ScubaDude1960: Didn't we invade Iraq and Afghanistan because their governments were doing this exact same shiat?

No.

itazurakko: This story is from 2004... so what happened with the case?

THIS


guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 24 November 2004 00.02 GMT

whidbey: ScubaDude1960: Didn't we invade Iraq and Afghanistan because their governments were doing this exact same shiat?

No.

I keep forgetting. Let me see if I have this straight: it's ok to shoot and kill little girls, it's not ok to throw acid on them and merely wound them.

ScubaDude1960: I keep forgetting. Let me see if I have this straight: it's ok to shoot and kill little girls, it's not ok to throw acid on them and merely wound them.

Just pointing out your earlier confusion.

I have no idea what you're talking about now.

Bathia_Mapes: THIS


guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 24 November 2004 00.02 GMT

Try

IDF: "We are treating everything as hostile right now. We were told not to take chances - to shoot rather than ask questions." (0)

January 14, 2009

You can't criticise Israel because of the Holocaust. This thread has been reported.

7of7: This is typical Israeli behavior regarding civilians. They kill them and then lie about the circumstances until the evidence shows what happened.

FTA: The case came to light after soldiers under the command of Captain R went to an Israeli newspaper to accuse the army of covering up the circumstances of the killing.

Oh my God. Soldiers doing the right thing! One a-hole going nuts does not condemn the entire army in this case. But go ahead, and keep going overboard in every anti-Israel thread.

damageddude: Oh my God. Soldiers doing the right thing! One a-hole going nuts does not condemn the entire army in this case. But go ahead, and keep going overboard in every anti-Israel thread.

This case was one a-hole but this behavior is typical. As I said look at the UN school and UN compound cases. This isn't an isolated incident. It's not going overboard to recognize that there is something seriously wrong with the way the Israeli army treats civilians.

(Insert mock outrage here)

A subsequent investigation by the officer responsible for the Gaza strip, Major General Dan Harel, concluded that the captain had "not acted unethically".

Well, there you have it. No harm, no foul.

Marcus Aurelius: Primitive tribes with ancient blood feuds do this sort of thing all the time. Both sides are barbarians.

I suggested in yesterday's Gaza thread that killing children, deliberately or accidentally might be a bad thing - and got flamed for it.

I'll try to clarify my politics today:

- Dead children BAD
- Live children GOOD

/ Is that anti-semitic?
// Can anyone please explain to me how that word gets understood one way, when the Palestinians and Arabs are 'semitic' as well as the Jews?
/// Please stop lobbing things at each other. KTHXBAI.

Ennuipoet [TotalFark] Quote 2009-01-15 07:27:43 PM

I hope that's sarcasm.

Snowflake Tubbybottom: (Insert mock outrage here)

You know, you're right. How about the Israelis just kill everyone they can. Women, children, cripples too. Surely nobody would be outraged by that.

War is hell.

I only hope that people don't automatically assume all Israeli soldiers are like this guy.

This horrific and senseless killing, in no way, excuses anything that the Palestinians will do in revenge.

GAT_00: Snowflake Tubbybottom: (Insert mock outrage here)

You know, you're right. How about the Israelis just kill everyone they can. Women, children, cripples too. Surely nobody would be outraged by that.

The crippled ones hide guns in their crutches.

GAT_00: Snowflake Tubbybottom: (Insert mock outrage here)

You know, you're right. How about the Israelis just kill everyone they can. Women, children, cripples too. Surely nobody would be outraged by that.

Such is the nature of war. If a country isn't willing to kill women and children, it has no business going to war.

itazurakko: This story is from 2004... so what happened with the case?

Wow, totally missed that. Good catch.

opiumpoopy: Can anyone please explain to me how that word gets understood one way, when the Palestinians and Arabs are 'semitic' as well as the Jews?

The word was coined by a German Jew-hater who felt that "Judenhass" wasn't a proper word for genteel, sophisticated Germans to use. He invented "antisemitisch" as a replacement. It refers specifically to Jew-hating.

7of7: It's not going overboard to recognize that there is something seriously wrong with the way the Israeli army treats civilians.

Hey, just out of curiosity, is there something wrong with how Hamas treats civilians? Or are they given a pass by you?

GAT_00: You know, you're right. How about the Israelis just kill everyone they can. Women, children, cripples too. Surely nobody would be outraged by that.

Worked for FDR and we loved that guy.

KaponoFor3: is there something wrong with how Hamas treats civilians? Or are they given a pass by you?

Of course there is something wrong with it. Fortunately they suck at killing civilians.

KaponoFor3: 7of7: It's not going overboard to recognize that there is something seriously wrong with the way the Israeli army treats civilians.

Hey, just out of curiosity, is there something wrong with how Hamas treats civilians? Or are they given a pass by you?

Seriously? You want to give Israel a pass for their treatment of civilians because Hamas treats their civilians bad?

KaponoFor3 "War is hell"

Yes sir. War rarely distinguishes civilian from soldier. It doesn't care about the Geneva convention or our definitions of torture. There are no good guys or bad guys in war. Just victims.

Ryan2065: Seriously? You want to give Israel a pass for their treatment of civilians because Hamas treats their civilians bad?

You fail at reading comprehension if that's what you saw in my comment.

KaponoFor3: This horrific and senseless killing, in no way, excuses anything that the Palestinians will do in revenge.

I don't condone said revenge, but obviously there wouldn't be any "revenge" if there weren't aggression to spur it on in the first place.

whidbey: I hope that's sarcasm

Oh hell yes it is! Yeah, that's the problem with that speech, it can be taken wrong.

KaponoFor3: Ryan2065: Seriously? You want to give Israel a pass for their treatment of civilians because Hamas treats their civilians bad?

You fail at reading comprehension if that's what you saw in my comment.

So how were you not trying to somehow justify Israel's treatment of civilians when you make comments like that? What was the purpose of saying "But but, Hamas is mean to civilians!" when we bring up how bad Israel is other than to try to justify it?

Can we decide on whether to go with the

"don't judge the others by this one bad guy" defense vs. the "whatever he did is ok because the other guys are bad" defense ?

Ryan2065

So how were you not trying to somehow justify Israel's treatment of civilians when you make comments like that?


It was pretty clear to me that he was commenting on the one sided, biased anti-Israel posting without acknowledging that the other side does the same.

I saw no "Justifying" at all.

Mordant: Can we decide on whether to go with the

"don't judge the others by this one bad guy" defense vs. the "whatever he did is ok because the other guys are bad" defense ?

How about its their damned problem and let them sort it out? If you want to cut all funds to all parties involved I have no objection to that either.

Snowflake Tubbybottom: Mordant: Can we decide on whether to go with the

"don't judge the others by this one bad guy" defense vs. the "whatever he did is ok because the other guys are bad" defense ?

How about its their damned problem and let them sort it out? If you want to cut all funds to all parties involved I have no objection to that either.

Mark the calendar, we agree on something.

Party Boy: Bathia_Mapes: THIS


guardian.co.uk, Wednesday 24 November 2004 00.02 GMT

Try

IDF: "We are treating everything as hostile right now. We were told not to take chances - to shoot rather than ask questions." (0)

January 14, 2009

Since this went green

"He could have been advancing to attack," the Israeli lieutenant explained. "We are treating everything as hostile right now. We were told not to take chances - to shoot rather than ask questions."

thats the TFA

This is a chicken and egg question.

Both Israeli and Palestine have reasonable claims to exist on the disputed lands. As a returning people in the early to mid-20th century, the Israelis adopted a strategy of displace and defend. Originally this was just purchasing land, but with the creation of the state of Israel, it became a process of military annexation and forced displacement of Palestinians with little or no pretense of fair acquisition or compensation after the fact. Israel started the aggression.

As victims of the holocaust, a nation of Jews is well-justified in defending itself against aggression. But so is any people, and frankly that is not the situation in Israel/Palestine. Israel is the aggressor, driving its borders forward. The holocaust defense cannot even fractionally excuse this behaviour.

While I recognize Israel's right to exist, and wish no harm to Israelis, Israel as a state is in the wrong. It is Palestinians who have collectively been dealt an injustice, and I would have sided with Jews in the Nazi's escalation toward the holocaust. I would also have supported those Jews who fought back against the aggressors, because that is a reasonable response to an unreasonable aggressor, and I do the same here in siding with Palestine.

Way to not effing learn the historical lesson, Israel. Come to the table, work this out peacefully, and call off your vicious dogs.

IDF: "We are treating everything as hostile right now. We were told not to take chances - to shoot rather than ask questions."

"We're just so precious we have to shoot your kids!"

the idea literally never occurs to Israelis that they ought to imagine what it's like to live under foreign occupation for 4 decades (and, despite the 2005 "withdrawal from Gaza," Israel continues to occupy and expand its settlements on Palestinian land and to control and severely restrict many key aspects of Gazan life). No thought is given to what it is like, what emotions it generates, what horrible acts start to appear justifiable, when you have a hostile foreign army control your borders and airspace and internal affairs for 40 years, one which builds walls around you, imposes the most intensely humiliating conditions on your daily life, blockades your land so that you're barred from exiting and prevented from accessing basic nutrition and medical needs for your children to the point where a substantial portion of the underage population suffers from stunted growth.


All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage - torture, the use of hostages, forced labor, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians - which does not change its moral color when it is committed by 'our' side ... The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.

The answer to this conflict will not come with this war. Israel will know peace only when they accept the fact that the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip have every right to lives of dignity. Thet will know peace only when they recognize that they must negotiate with Hamas, their enemy, even if they are devastated that the Palestinians did not elect a more moderate party to lead them. Israelis will know peace only when their leaders stop considering lives to be cheap and expendable, free of fear and despair.

This thread needs Tatsuma. It's just not the same otherwise...

The fact that this story is from 2004 just proves that my appraisal and solution to the Palestinian/Israeli problem is correct. Rather than repost it here, have a link:
Linkie-Dinkie (new window)

Yes, Hamas is killing your civilians, Israel. Ever consider taking the moral high-ground and perhaps not breed another generation of haters? Or will that impede your reasons for attacking them two years from now?

Snowflake Tubbybottom: (Insert mock outrage here)

So if I post pictures of American children holding guns, then it's OK to kill your daughter?

I feel this is the appropriate thread to post that I am absolutely HAMMMMMMERED.

WPOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

BEEEREEER

Remember when the United States stood for things?

Now we do all that is wrong, with the excuse that evildoers do the same thing.

How do we maintain a moral high ground when we engage in the very behavior that defines evil?

How do we continue to support Israel when they do the same thing?

Marcus Aurelius: Needs an OBVIOUS tag.

Primitive tribes with ancient blood feuds do this sort of thing all the time. Both sides are barbarians.

All 'nations' are primitive tribes with insanely expanded blood feuds. Really, how do you distinguish between Israel, 'Palestine,' and, say, America or Nepal?

CaesarSneezy: Snowflake Tubbybottom: (Insert mock outrage here)

So if I post pictures of American children holding guns, then it's OK to kill your daughter?



Obviously you own a Cabellas catalogue.

He was acquitted...at least this was the follow-up I found.11/16/2005 (new window)