submitter: What happens when you keep annoying a paranoid, who has gotten his butt kicked forever, but is now strong? You get your butt kicked. Israel is the scared paranoid, Hamas the guy who didn't know when to quit it



So submitter, who are the 100's innocent women and children who have been blown to pieces and had nothing to do with Hamas or any of the other extremists?

Keep it cutesy jackass.

Con_Authority: who are the 100's innocent women and children who have been blown to pieces and had nothing to do with Hamas or any of the other extremists?

Why is Hamas firing bombs etc from schoolyards? I'm not condoning Israel's killing civilians, but I think Hamas leaders should burn in Hell for purposefully putting their own innocents in harms way. If they really cared about their people, they'd stop investing in guns, buy some butter and leave Israel the f-alone. They have plenty of legitimate complaints that aren't helped by their lobbing bombs into Israel.

Con_Authority: submitter, who are the 100's innocent women and children who have been blown to pieces and had nothing to do with Hamas or any of the other extremists?

Family members of the people who voted Hamas into power?

Tunk87: Family members of the people who voted Hamas into power?

So it's OK for Hamas to kill Israeli civilians because they or their family members voted the Israeli government into power?

7of7: Tunk87: Family members of the people who voted Hamas into power?

So it's OK for Hamas to kill Israeli civilians because they or their family members voted the Israeli government into power?

As long as they remember that there just may be consequences to that action. Like having the Isrealis blowing their stuff all to hell.

wow - that headline just kept going

And Lo, King David sent his armies against the Philistines in the land of Canaan. He smote the enemy with white phosphorus and pillars of salt.

/This shiat has been going since time immortal. The Children of Abraham, indeed.

7of7: So it's OK for Hamas to kill Israeli civilians because they or their family members voted the Israeli government into power?

Well then, let's hope that that never happens!

When both sides realize they can no longer claim the moral high ground, there will be progress. Not before.

/doesn't expect either side to cave in on that issue any time soon

until the rest of the world has enough of this shiat...it will continue.

we allow it to continue for various reasons.

it's not our kids that are getting killed.

so...i guess 'creating' a "jewish state" where there was none to begin with...wasn't such a great idea.

who'd have known.

consider this: why a "jewish" state to begin with?

it wasn't enough to live and let live?

let's say the un said there had to be a christian state in indiana...and it slowly grew to encompass most of north america.

-and you were jewish.

sounds farked up...but that is essentially what is going on.

forget the 'two-state' solution.

it's either a singular, secular nation...or a crapfest.

we'll call it...alaska!

Both Israel and Hamas are committing the same moral crimes.

The only difference is that Hamas is launching rockets not knowing where they will land and they often don't kill anyone, but all too often they do. On the other side, Israel is dumping billions of dollars in ordnance with pinpoint accuracy on water facilities, power distribution, grade schools, hospitals, police stations, UN workers, colleges, Mosques, etc., etc,. claiming they are fighting terrorists.

Labeling an entire population terrorists and killing everyone in your gun sight is little more than genocide.

All Israel is achieving is the validation of the hatred the Arabs have for them, that doubling the numbers of volunteers for the extremist cause. Also, tilting the UN in support of the Palestinians.

Int he eyes of the world, in this case Israel is Goliath.

i agree, con_authority.

Bauer: let's say the un said there had to be a christian state in indiana...and it slowly grew to encompass most of north america.

-and you were jewish.

sounds farked up...but that is essentially what is going on.

No, it's more comparable to the UN making Delaware a country for Darfurian refugees. Sure, we'd be a little pissed, but I highly doubt we'd try to murder them.

I'd post the "Not this shiat again" pic but the pixels are getting worn out.

I have tried and tried to make sense of this, and now I no longer care. If I lived in a farked-up place like this, I'd leave the country for good and never look back. But I'm sure that all the gods are telling everybody that they have to stay on and keep killing each other, in the name of god. Because their god needs to win.

smooshie: No, it's more comparable to the UN making Delaware a country for Darfurian refugees. Sure, we'd be a little pissed, but I highly doubt we'd try to murder them.

Clearly you are not from the South. ;-)

_{/VA doesn't count for the purposes of my joke :P}

Con_Authority: Both Israel and Hamas are committing the same moral crimes.

The only difference is that Hamas is launching rockets not knowing where they will land and they often don't kill anyone, but all too often they do. On the other side, Israel is dumping billions of dollars in ordnance with pinpoint accuracy on water facilities, power distribution, grade schools, hospitals, police stations, UN workers, colleges, Mosques, etc., etc,. claiming they are fighting terrorists.

Labeling an entire population terrorists and killing everyone in your gun sight is little more than genocide.

All Israel is achieving is the validation of the hatred the Arabs have for them, that doubling the numbers of volunteers for the extremist cause. Also, tilting the UN in support of the Palestinians.

Int he eyes of the world, in this case Israel is Goliath.

Yeah, some o' that. There is no right and wrong here, just wrong and also wrong.

I get that Israel pretty much has to fight this proxy war, or things will just continue to degrade until they reach a point far, far worse than what we have now. I get that were I a Palestinian, I'd probably be calling for vengeance for my classmates, cousins, children, etc. Both of these sentiments are being used by parties that stand to gain from wholesale slaughter and by diminishing Israel's standing in the world.

I especially loved the story I got to hear on NPR yesterday about the Israelis shuffling 100 Palestinian civilians into a home, then shelling the building the following morning, killing at least 70 (including infants and children). The icing on that cake? Ambulances twice tried rushing to the scene and twice were driven back by Israeli bullets.

/Telegraph story on this was rejected by the modmins
//Still would love to hear a justification for this from anyone

WFern: I especially loved the story I got to hear on NPR yesterday about the Israelis shuffling 100 Palestinian civilians into a home, then shelling the building the following morning, killing at least 70 (including infants and children). The icing on that cake? Ambulances twice tried rushing to the scene and twice were driven back by Israeli bullets.

/Telegraph story on this was rejected by the modmins
//Still would love to hear a justification for this from anyone

Sounds like propaganda without some kind of corroboration. Link?

smooshie: Bauer: let's say the un said there had to be a christian state in indiana...and it slowly grew to encompass most of north america.

-and you were jewish.

sounds farked up...but that is essentially what is going on.

No, it's more comparable to the UN making Delaware a country for Darfurian refugees. Sure, we'd be a little pissed, but I highly doubt we'd try to murder them.

Why are Iran, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Turkey, Turkmenistan, and essentially every other country in the north and east labeled "Arab?" They aren't.

Over the past 60 years, the State of Israel has justified every pogrom and exile that has been excerpted upon the Israelites and their more Jingoist of decendents.

However, this does confirm their right to exist as a nation-in-themselves, if for no other reason than the fact that no rational nation could take the liability to shelter them as a state within-their-state.

Imagine proud Berliners caught benethe the Iron Boot of the Schematic people? Gaza in the Reichland? Warsaw was a pre-emptive action.

daychilde: smooshie: No, it's more comparable to the UN making Delaware a country for Darfurian refugees. Sure, we'd be a little pissed, but I highly doubt we'd try to murder them.

Clearly you are not from the South. ;-)

/VA doesn't count for the purposes of my joke :P

That depends on what part of VA it is. We don't care none too much bout those northern virginia folk.

Peace through superior firepower does not work. The Israelis are going to try and bomb Gaza into submission, but they're not going to succeed without resorting to genocide. You can't fight your way to peace unless you're going to go all the way to burning the cities and salting the earth. Otherwise, at some point people just have to lay down the weapons and agree to stop killing each other for the fighting to stop.

They're going to blow the fark out of Gaza, probably roll in and start settling it again in retaliation for Hamas idiocy after they withdrew, and then somehow fail to understand why suicide bombing is going to skyrocket afterwards and surrounding nations' citizens are going to start getting involved.

It doesn't end unless you bring it to an end. Either kill them all and deal with the consequences or present a meaningful and serious attempt at peace. Status-quo ceasefires will never last.

smooshie:

psst... Iranians are the sand-ninja's from the movie 300, not the 9/11 people.

The guy at the end of the thread: Warsaw was a pre-emptive action.

Wow. That's some powertrolling right thar.

So I'm going to finally voice an opinion on this matter after being a bystander for way to long (I've been drinking!!!)...

...I'm a big Israel supporter and I have to say that the picture of the Israel/Palestine soldiers standing in-front/behind of civilians sums up my beliefs on why there are so many unfortunate causalities on the Palestine side.

However, I feel that unfortunately Israel is and has been going about this particular war (and the one against Hezbollah) in the wrong fashion. As opposed to the other major wars against the organized militaries of the surround Arab nations, the victory conditions for this conflict can not be won through force of might. Much like WOPR in "WarGames" they have to realize that the only move that results in "victory" is to not play...Unfortunately, violence will only perpetuate more violence and while this may be useful for allowing those who are in power to stay in power (which I feel is the main cause for violence on BOTH sides), it will never result in Pareto Sum for both sides. Unfortunately for them (since I personally don't want to see Israeli citizens die) the onus is on Israel to be the bigger man and just take the violence and respond by turning the other cheek. I think this is the only way to truly win. You can't win this by violence, but must be unconditionally kind to Palestine and win over the peoples hearts. I know everyone will say Palestinians will always hate them just because they are Jews, but if Israel actually gave an unbelievable improvement in life to the Palestinian people, I feel they could eventually dissuade violence.

...anyways that's just my two cents (and the beer talking). Good luck arguing!

~Z

The guy at the end of the thread
*CHOMP*
Macht ist das Schicksal des Willens
Wenn ich ein Kätzchen war, konnte ich nicht brüllen

The day israel starts airing kids shows urging children to pick up a gun and fight the evil jews is the day I decide "both sides are just as bad".

When israel puts a groups of special forces into a school as a base ill decide "both sides are just as bad"

When israel says "even if we get everything we asked for during our talks our goal will still be driving them into the sea" ill decide "both sides are just as bad".

When I sober up ill decide to respond to everyone who cusses me out over my comment.

Maybe.


Maybe ill have another drink instead

Back to Gush Katif (arutzsheva, link pops)

in the past ive had sympathy for the Palestinian cause.. but not this time. its time for them to clean up their own and get rid of their crazy terrorist elements. they're just getting whats been coming to them for a long time. palestinians are largely irrational actors

I'm still unclear on the concept of why the Palestinians shoot their missiles from the grounds of schools and hospitals.

I do feel badly for the Palestinian police who object to these launches and are too afraid or powerless to stop them or protest. They've got a rough gig.

The sad part is that even though Hamas did not live up to their end of the recently expired ceasefire, Israel did, and even offered to extend it. Israel had to do something, and they did, though it may turn out to be the wrong choice; what is the right choice? Just sit there and be bombarded with rockets for time eternal? I do not condone their current actions, but I honestly don't know what else they can do...

Abner Doon: Sounds like propaganda without some kind of corroboration. Link?

Here's the story from The Telegraph. NPR typically catalogues all their major stories through their website, but I'm running on a dial-up connection here so you may need to find that one yourself.

RoyBatty: I'm still unclear on the concept of why the Palestinians shoot their missiles from the grounds of schools and hospitals.

Israel blowing up a hospital or a school is a propaganda victory for Hamas. It's tough to argue against a photo of a school in ruins, regardless of your reasons. So Israel is left with the choice of either not retaliating or looking bad by retaliating. Either way Hamas gets something out of it.

I honestly think Israel looked at the United States, saw that the outgoing administration wasn't going to have the time or political will to exercise any diplomatic restraint on them, and went for it. I suspect once Obama comes into office you'll see a quick drop in hostilities from the Israeli side, but right now we're diplomatically asleep at the switch and we're the only country they give any ear to on whether or not to blow the fark out of something.

Saxaholic: The sad part is that even though Hamas did not live up to their end of the recently expired ceasefire, Israel did, and even offered to extend it. Israel had to do something, and they did, though it may turn out to be the wrong choice; what is the right choice? Just sit there and be bombarded with rockets for time eternal? I do not condone their current actions, but I honestly don't know what else they can do...

There seems to be this concept of a false dichotomy concerning Israel. Of course they have the right to respond, but killing 500 people probably isn't the way to do it. I won't pretend to be an expert, but I'd say their earlier ground incursions were probably more rational than simply playing 'Battleship' and hoping their missiles hit the bad guys.

/Those evil Jews...

Drakkenmaw: Israel blowing up a hospital or a school is a propaganda victory for Hamas. It's tough to argue against a photo of a school in ruins, regardless of your reasons. So Israel is left with the choice of either not retaliating or looking bad by retaliating. Either way Hamas gets something out of it.

I think you're mistaken. Lots of farkers assure me the Palestinians wouldn't do that! I am sure it must make their missiles more accurate or something.

Who would have thought the Jooz would turn into amateur Nazis ... If you are going to commit atrocities, commit to it, beotches!

RoyBatty: I'm still unclear on the concept of why the Palestinians shoot their missiles from the grounds of schools and hospitals.

Because an Israeli counterstrike to an empty field with no possibility of collateral damage won't outrage anyone. Or even be noticed.

Hamas fires rockets, send suicide bombers at Israel. The people of Gaza elected Hamas, knowing Hamas was not a 'Hi Israel, let's be friends' group. They deserve to get attacked, they brought it on themselves.

They deserve to get attacked, they brought it on themselves


No they don't.

They SHOULD smack the fark out of hamas. But no family/kid/average person deserves to get attacked because of who got elected.

RoyBatty: I think you're mistaken. Lots of farkers assure me the Palestinians wouldn't do that! I am sure it must make their missiles more accurate or something.

Hamas is a more complex animal than you'd think. They're a terrorist organization, yes, but they also have a huge humanitarian operation going on in Palestinian areas. They give aid to the destitute and needy, provide medical supplies and shelter to the displaced and wounded, and do all sorts of other things like that. They do a very good job at this, actually. It is their principal recruiting tool. So in a freakish way, Hamas getting the hospitals blown up and displacing thousands of people due to airstrikes is only benefiting them.

Also remember that Hamas is not "the Palestinians." The West Bank is under the control of an entirely different group, the Palestinian Authority, which are actually more interested in getting along with Israel in a coexistence sort of way - especially since Arafat died. The problem is that Hamas and the Palestinian Authority fought a minor war for control of territory awhile back and Hamas managed to kick them entirely out of Gaza. They're currently sitting back, holding the majority of Palestinian territory, offering vocal condemnations with no meaningful assistance and hoping Hamas comes out of this so battered that they can't control Gaza anymore and the Authority can regain their hold on the land.

It's not just "Israel vs. Palestinians" at all. The whole situation is convoluted to hell and back, which is why it is so hard to get anything meaningful done over there.

How hard is it to realize that groups like Hamas cant be reasoned with, negotiated, bargianed, etc. They simply want what they want, and any time they agree to peace its only for the purpose of some quiet to plan and restock for the next attack.

These people only understand violence, Israel knows this, and is giving it to them.

Extremist groups dont work like regular governments and organizations. Thats why they are called extremists. The only 2 ways to end an "issue" with them is either give them what they want without condition, or wipe them from existance.

/I vote for the later...

Drakkenmaw: It's not just "Israel vs. Palestinians" at all. The whole situation is convoluted to hell and back, which is why it is so hard to get anything meaningful done over there.

Yeah.

WFern: Abner Doon: Sounds like propaganda without some kind of corroboration. Link?

Here's the story from The Telegraph. NPR typically catalogues all their major stories through their website, but I'm running on a dial-up connection here so you may need to find that one yourself.

The problem with this is Hamas has been shown to lie to reporters and fake things like this by bringing out the dead from other things. Not saying they are wrong in this case, but there is no reason to trust it either. All they know is that when the Palestinian medics got there, that is what they reported.

Oh, why can't those Arabs just renounce their religion and adopt the mannerisms and beliefs of the stronger Jews?

I mean, slaves brought over from Africa were able to do that, what can't Arabs?

/trolling is hard
//especially when there's a point to be had in there somewhere.

smooshie 2009-01-10 10:44:29 PM
Bauer: let's say the un said there had to be a christian state in indiana...and it slowly grew to encompass most of north america.

-and you were jewish.

sounds farked up...but that is essentially what is going on.

"No, it's more comparable to the UN making Delaware a country for Darfurian refugees. Sure, we'd be a little pissed, but I highly doubt we'd try to murder them."

-you are omitting and twisting what i said.

and trying to use a biased picture as 'proof' of something rediculous.

"...and it slowly grew to encompass most of north america."

that is the one very important thing you didn't address.

what started out on the wrong foot...has grown into something worse.

-and we watched it happen.

When has Israel ever, EVER had it's butt kicked?

The better analogy would be that Israel is the bully who constantly does the "I'm not touching yoouuuuuu!!" thing to the Palestinians. The moment the Palestinians swat the hands away, the Israelis knock them down, stomp on them a few time, and then yell out, "Don't you ever touch me again, motherfarker!!". A few moments later, they start up with the "I'm not touching you!" shiat again.

I think I've figured out why everyone on every side of this conflict pisses me off: it's a "conflict" based totally on emotion and religious bullshiat (in other words, more emotion). I don't "get" why people care so much about Israel because none of them are being rational. It's worthless desert land with a few old ruins where some worthless people claimed to see visions of sky daddy. And yet both groups HAVE TO have that particular piece of land, AND have to make it dominated by their own group's identity. All the rest is bullshiat and a self-perpetuating cycle of violence at this point (and both sides have some things to rightfully be angry about now that this has been going on so long, especially the Palestinians). But the fact that there are never any solutions to this, and we constantly hear about how "complex" the situation is, just shows that at root no one there is interested in actually resolving the conflict.

Israel/Palestine is intractable because neither side is rational. These emotional babies need to step aside and let rational grownups impose a solution, or people will continue to die for another 50 years.