That sounds like a lot.

I'm signing Dad up for 5 of them.

Jobs are jobs.

propasaurus: Jobs are jobs.

uhhhhhh

Oooh yeah, subby, just like that evil Works Progress Administration or Civilian Conservation Corps that brought evil communism onto our great shores.

Oh wait, actually, we built highways, bridges, beautiful art deco buildings, utilities infrastructure, rec centers and public pools, stadiums, airports, trained women and African-Americans for employment, and fed the poor.

FTFA: He says the "No. 1 goal of my plan ... is to create three million new jobs, more than 80 percent of them in the private sector."

Done right subby, this is called governing. Public works funding is a great way to create employment, teach important technical skills, and foster a sense of community for the future of the country. Of course there is the danger of pork and that has to be avoided, but not every government ministry has to be bloated and overfunded like Homeland Security.

So do I applaud, or run for the hills with my guns and Hummer2?

The real question is whether he'll do anything about the ridiculous amount of red tape in personnel procedures.

melopene: The real question is whether he'll do anything about the ridiculous amount of red tape in personnel procedures.

That would be nice. It's very difficult and very time consuming to fire a public sector employee in California.

Why wouldn't he want to create new public sector jobs, not that he or any president can?

The only way it gets done is if he's friendly to business and that will just piss off the far left who'll scream corporate welfare.

And this is bad news because...?

OH LAWSEY!!! HE BE TRYING TO GET TEH GUBMINT BIG SO HE CAN SOCIALIZE TEH WORLD!11

600,000 fewer unemployment benefits, mothafokkers.

I suppose it depends on whether these jobs will be providing actual goods/services, or if they're just make-work jobs in order to boost employment numbers. Given that they're government jobs, I'd say it's the latter. But I honestly don't know, and I won't bother to guess right now. I'm cautiously optimistic. That's all I can really say about it.

PC LOAD LETTER: 600,000 fewer unemployment benefits, mothafokkers.

600,000 people that are going to be paid by our taxes instead of corporate FUTA taxes.

Desirable things that the private sector cannot or will not provide are the proper field for government. In this case, jobs.

LosinMySenses: And this is bad news because...?

They'll all be TSA workers

PacManDreaming:
600,000 people that are going to be paid by our taxes instead of corporate FUTA taxes.

But then those people pay money back to the government as well. And then they buy things, which employs other people, who pay taxes.

coco ebert: Oooh yeah, subby, just like that evil Works Progress Administration or Civilian Conservation Corps that brought evil communism socialism onto our great shores.

FTFY.

Actually, I have no problem with work programs like that. I think everyone on the government dole should be required to put in a set number of hours a week doing public works in order to keep their welfare benefits. There's plenty of trash to pick up, graffiti to paint over, public landscaping to maintain and lots of other jobs the unskilled can do. If we're gonna engage in limited socialism, then I say let's make the best of it.

swr2000: LosinMySenses: And this is bad news because...?

They'll all be TSA workers

ouch.

sloppy shoes: But then those people pay money back to the government as well. And then they buy things, which employs other people, who pay taxes.

You pay taxes on unemployment benefits, too. And people still use that money to buys goods and services. The only benefit to them having a government job, is that they will be making more money that they would on unemployment. Oh, and they'll have insurance, too.

PacManDreaming:
Actually, I have no problem with work programs like that. I think everyone on the government dole should be required to put in a set number of hours a week doing public works in order to keep their welfare benefits.

FTFY.

The next form of taxation should be mandatory work hours. No school should go underfunded or under provided. We can bus in PHDs to spend 5 hours every weekend teaching science.

I'll be applying...

A govt job w/benefits and pension suddenly looks awfully attractive.

Paultards...UNITE!

PacManDreaming:
You pay taxes on unemployment benefits, too. And people still use that money to buys goods and services. The only benefit to them having a government job, is that they will be making more money that they would on unemployment. Oh, and they'll have insurance, too.

Unemployment is a form of insurance- just like social security. If you don't pay into the system, you aren't eligible. The last job I had didn't pay into the unemployment system- therefore I can't collect. (It also only pays so long, along with a few other restrictions). Unemployment benefits are also significantly less than wages.

One FDR did enough damage. I don't want a second.

sloppy shoes: FTFY.

The next form of taxation should be mandatory work hours.

Not only no, but HELL NO. If you want an authoritarian style of government, there's plenty of nations out there that practice it that you can move to.

PacManDreaming:
Not only no, but HELL NO. If you want an authoritarian style of government, there's plenty of nations out there that practice it that you can move to.

I would argue it's not authoritarian in the least sense of the word. I would argue that government itself implies the basest sense of the word community, and that this is just a more direct form of taxation. Further, you would still have democratic controls of your government, and the ability to vote in different programs.

However, everyone should have to donate at least 35 hours of time to their community a year.

sloppy shoes: However, everyone should have to donate at least 35 hours of time to their community a year.

hell no. If you make it mandatory, I'll fight you tooth and claw.

sloppy shoes:
However, everyone should have to donate at least 35 hours of time to their community a year.

Or, more precisely, everyone needs to pitch in until our schools are fixed and hunger and lack of shelter- in America at least- are eliminated. Monetary taxes won't fix these problems alone- people will have to provide some honest to goodness good will to help fixing the problem.

sloppy shoes: Further, you would still have democratic controls of your government, and the ability to vote in different programs.

Kind of like how Sadam, Fidel, and that guy over in Russia was voted in?

I want a job as a government unicorn sheapard.

nacker:
Kind of like how Sadam, Fidel, and that guy over in Russia was voted in?

Not even close, and you know it.

sloppy shoes: sloppy shoes:
However, everyone should have to donate at least 35 hours of time to their community a year.

Or, more precisely, everyone needs to pitch in until our schools are fixed and hunger and lack of shelter- in America at least- are eliminated. Monetary taxes won't fix these problems alone- people will have to provide some honest to goodness good will to help fixing the problem.

that's all well and good but in a free country, you cannot force people into doing those things. it has to be voluntary. if you aren't free to be a greedy jerk, then you aren't really free.

Well the private sector isn't going to make the, so someone needs to. If anything the private sector will send twice that many overseas...at least twice that many.

sloppy shoes: Not even close, and you know it.


My that is a slippery slope you're standing on.

sloppy shoes: I would argue it's not authoritarian in the least sense of the word.

If you already have a job and pay income taxes, I would consider that very authoritarian. It's forced government servitude no matter how you sugarcoat it. If you could donate your time instead of paying income taxes, then that would be a different story.

If you're accepting money from the government, such as welfare, then I don't really see a problem with you doing public works. The government is basically giving you a paycheck to stay home. Those who are on unemployment, as long as they're actively seeking another job, I could see them being exempt from public work...up until their benefits run out and they go on welfare.

Weaver95: I'm signing Dad up for 5 of them.

My grandpa has only been dead since 2005 and grandma since 2006, I should be able to get get them a couple of those jobs. My other grandpa died in 1995 IIRC so he could probably get a supervisor position.

/My dad has to deal with dead people collecting CRP benefits. You would think that the primary beneficiary being dead would raise more red flags than it does.

Weaver95:
that's all well and good but in a free country, you cannot force people into doing those things. it has to be voluntary. if you aren't free to be a greedy jerk, then you aren't really free.

We should not delude ourselves into thinking we are free to do whatever we want. Nor should we delude ourselves into the grandeur that is the assumption of absolute personal achievement with no benefits from family, friends, and situation.

You could easily be given the choice to choose what programs you want to donate your time to. However, you owe duties and commissions to your fellow community members. Currently that comes in the way of monetary taxation. I'm merely implying we eliminate the middleman, and make the programs more efficient, cheaper, and the benefit of the common man's entreprenuerialship. We often complain that government programs are a largesse, well, here is the program that gets the common man involved.


nacker:
My that is a slippery slope you're standing on.

Not at all. It is no different than a draft or monetary taxes. You owe service to your government- in return you get many, many things from them, as well as the ability to pick it.

While 600,000 new government jobs might not sound like a lot, he hopes to expand that to 1.5 million by 2010. And if that succeeds, to 10 million by 2012. The ultimate aim here is to have everyone working for the government in one capacity or another within 20 years.

sloppy shoes: We should not delude ourselves into thinking we are free to do whatever we want. Nor should we delude ourselves into the grandeur that is the assumption of absolute personal achievement with no benefits from family, friends, and situation.

so you would undo 200 years of freedom out of some deluded belief that mandatory service is some sort of civic virtue?

You could easily be given the choice to choose what programs you want to donate your time to. However, you owe duties and commissions to your fellow community members.

I owe NOTHING. what will you do when I refuse to serve? What will you do when others like me refuse to serve? throw us in jail? what happens to your grand plan then? you have only managed to create a new class of criminal.

PacManDreaming:
If you already have a job and pay income taxes, I would consider that very authoritarian. It's forced government servitude no matter how you sugarcoat it. If you could donate your time instead of paying income taxes, then that would be a different story.

If you're accepting money from the government, such as welfare, then I don't really see a problem with you doing public works. The government is basically giving you a paycheck to stay home. Those who are on unemployment, as long as they're actively seeking another job, I could see them being exempt from public work...up until their benefits run out and they go on welfare.

No. Authoritarian implies a much broader lack of freedom. This is no different than a draft- which could be characterized as such, but much less profusely- and it is really no different than monetary taxes. You can't say that it can only be in place of monetary taxes, because that would imply a government can't ever raise taxes. It can. This would be a raising of your taxes.

Further, as I said to Weaver, it's actually not very authoritarian at all because you are involved in the programs and would be able to choose the program, shape it, help run it, etc...

sloppy shoes: Not at all. It is no different than a draft or monetary taxes. You owe service to your government- in return you get many, many things from them, as well as the ability to pick it.

And just who/how do you suppose your plan will get enforced? People who don't pay their taxes can go to jail. What happens to people who don't make their quota? And what if you show up for the hours, but don't really do that great of work? Do those people get "fired", and therefore have to go out and find another "job"? Sorry, but this whole idea of yours is starting to sound more like crap.

Weaver95:
so you would undo 200 years of freedom out of some deluded belief that mandatory service is some sort of civic virtue?

I owe NOTHING. what will you do when I refuse to serve? What will you do when others like me refuse to serve? throw us in jail? what happens to your grand plan then? you have only managed to create a new class of criminal.

I wouldn't be undoing 200 years of freedom. AT worst, I'd be undoing 40 years of not having a draft.

If you refuse to serve- much like any other tax- you would be put in jail. But with this tax, you could easily make the punishment a mandatory 75% income tax instead. That way the ultra rich can have their solace in their greenbacks.

Again, this would be no different than raising your taxes- except you have much more control and authority over how it is spent.

sloppy shoes: We should not delude ourselves into thinking we are free to do whatever we want. Nor should we delude ourselves into the grandeur that is the assumption of absolute personal achievement with no benefits from family, friends, and situation.

I don't know where you got your education, but they did a really shiatty job. You should demand your money back.

There is a major difference in your family and friends helping you out and the government forcing someone to hand over their prosperity in order to help out a complete stranger.

sloppy shoes: Further, as I said to Weaver, it's actually not very authoritarian at all because you are involved in the programs and would be able to choose the program, shape it, help run it, etc...

Dude, you sound like a someone trying to convince his friends to join a "business opportunity" that is legit, and not a pyramid scheme.

nacker:
And just who/how do you suppose your plan will get enforced? People who don't pay their taxes can go to jail. What happens to people who don't make their quota? And what if you show up for the hours, but don't really do that great of work? Do those people get "fired", and therefore have to go out and find another "job"? Sorry, but this whole idea of yours is starting to sound more like crap.

You will have a quota of hours to be filled in registered volunteer agencies. The heads of those agencies will rate your performance and sign of on hours performed. If they feel you are not performing, then you will have to donate your time somewhere else. As with any job, tax, or payment system, nothing will be 100% efficient and the program will always use reform. However, it has the potential to drastically reduce some of the problems this country faces, if not eliminate some altogether.

You will not go to prison, you will face a 45%-75% income tax rate.

If he wants to lower unemployment, he better ban drug tests. I hear there are a few million stubborn non-violent criminals that refuse to work for companies that invade their privacy as a condition of their employment.

sloppy shoes: You will have a quota of hours to be filled in registered volunteer agencies. The heads of those agencies will rate your performance and sign of on hours performed. If they feel you are not performing, then you will have to donate your time somewhere else. As with any job, tax, or payment system, nothing will be 100% efficient and the program will always use reform. However, it has the potential to drastically reduce some of the problems this country faces, if not eliminate some altogether.

You will not go to prison, you will face a 45%-75% income tax rate.

Sounds like an awesome plan. Where can I sign up to be one of these "performance rating" people. I'm sure I can do a great job and certainly not accept cash in a secret drop box in exchange for a good rating on my shiaty work.

sloppy shoes: I wouldn't be undoing 200 years of freedom. AT worst, I'd be undoing 40 years of not having a draft.

If you refuse to serve- much like any other tax- you would be put in jail.

so you're not taking freedom away, you're just taking freedom away.

Got it. perfectly clear. you're just like every OTHER authoritarian dickwad out there.

PacManDreaming:
There is a major difference in your family and friends helping you out and the government forcing someone to hand over their prosperity in order to help out a complete stranger.

Come Jan 31st, you will receive a yearly statement as to how much "prosperity" you've "handed over to a complete stranger." Welcome to civilized society in the past 2000 years and beyond.

nacker: Dude, you sound like a someone trying to convince his friends to join a "business opportunity" that is legit, and not a pyramid scheme.

Okay. Virtually all sales pitches, business descriptions, etc... could be classified with that classification.

sloppy shoes: I wouldn't be undoing 200 years of freedom. AT worst, I'd be undoing 40 years of not having a draft.

If you refuse to serve- much like any other tax- you would be put in jail. But with this tax, you could easily make the punishment a mandatory 75% income tax instead. That way the ultra rich can have their solace in their greenbacks.

Again, this would be no different than raising your taxes- except you have much more control and authority over how it is spent.

I hope we do have a draft. You'd make an excellent IED detector in Iraq.

Please do every other American a favor...stay the HELL out of politics. Your ideas are genuinely scary.