Amtrak

Ooops, looks like I needed to RTFA.

"Furthermore, this same issue arose in Washington DC's Union Station earlier this year when a TV news crew ended up interviewing a top dog from Amtrak to determine what is the actual policy on photography in train stations. The Amtrak official said that photography is allowed. Meanwhile, a security guard tried to shut the cameraman down."

Yay Freedom!!

The War On Cameras^TM.

They must be hiring the yahoos that flunked out of the TSA ;)

choose life

When pictures are outlawed, only outlaws will tell you to say cheese.

/amtrak

Congrats on your future windfall from yet another department filled with mentally deficient bullies.

FTA, I can't tell if the platform was closed, but I think that they are open 24 hrs. This guy is going to have a field day in court.

The one thing Zombies remember after becoming a zombie is how delicious these idiots brains are going be.

Living in Manhattan where every tourist has a camera dangling around their neck, one should not expect this. One, however, would be wrong. I was in Riverbank State Park with my camera last week when security approached me and directed me not to take photos around the "sensitive facility". That "sensitive facility" was a sewage treatment plant. Because, indeed, turrists are plotting to explode our nations valuable poo supply.

They weren't dickish about it, but I still wondered WTF?

GaryPDX: The one thing Zombies remember after becoming a zombie is how delicious these idiots brains are going be.

would idiot brains have less nutritional value to a zombie?

Ennuipoet: They weren't dickish about it, but I still wondered WTF?

All these people have this mentality (pops), but it isn't a joke.

eddyatwork:
/amtrak

Meh, they aren't the only ones who do this. Lots of places try to prevent photography.

A general police strategy to keep order is to prevent confrontation. See some guys about to fight- break up the verbal assault and tell them to move along. See some guys taking photos in a neighborhood where people don't want him- tell him to delete them and move along. See some protesters- confine them to one area or "freedom of speech zone." (Or, classify it a riot and get out the tear gas). Crime prevention methods work much better than simply arresting those who commit crimes.

The problem with our basic freedoms is that they present basic issues in everyday life. Everyone wants the ability to take pictures without a permit; yet, no one wants some slightly creepy looking dude taking pictures of them in public. Everyone wants to be famous, no one wants the paparazzi. Everyone wants to have freedom of speech- but groups get tired of hate speech, inciting violence (which is illegal), etc...
Scientists get frustrated with religions. (And don't we all). Sometimes religions get tired of scientists. Actually, the ability to believe what you want- which is really what freedom of religion is- is just generally a piss off for individuals and groups. How am I to say that religious people can't believe that gays are bad? But who are they to say that man-on-man action isn't the absolute bestest thing on the planet?

What a bunch of Dicks.



Mall cops with better benefits.

I work in Press Relations for a law enforcement agency and one of our "deputies" harassed a reporter for taking notes in a courtroom. Apparently he didnt realize the first amendment also applies in court, and that harassing a journalist might, you know, cause some negative press for our department. Dumbfarks.

Kitwilly: I work in Press Relations for a law enforcement agency and one of our "deputies" harassed a reporter for taking notes in a courtroom. Apparently he didnt realize the first amendment also applies in court, and that harassing a journalist might, you know, cause some negative press for our department. Dumbfarks.

Do you have to remind him to keep breathing? Cause, wow, that was dumb.

Kitwilly: Dumbfarks

How the fark do these people get hired? Is there no test before you leave the academy?

hmm....I think i'll wander by TMI later this week and take the new camera along with me.

MonkeyVegetables: GaryPDX: The one thing Zombies remember after becoming a zombie is how delicious these idiots brains are going be.

would idiot brains have less nutritional value to a zombie?

no, it'd be like eating veal- all nice and tender from never having been used.

SilentStrider: MonkeyVegetables: GaryPDX: The one thing Zombies remember after becoming a zombie is how delicious these idiots brains are going be.

would idiot brains have less nutritional value to a zombie?

no, it'd be like eating veal- all nice and tender from never having been used.

lol

SilentStrider: no, it'd be like eating veal- all nice and tender from never having been used.

/+1
//Perhaps Sir would like zee eediaht brains,zhey are quite tendair and zee chef brings zem fresh from zee Amtrak station zis mah-ning!

How dumb is Amtrak about this? Cliff Black, Amtrak's director-public affairs and media relations, was giving an interview to Fox 5's Tom Fitzgerald at Union Station in DC about how Amtrak allows photography at Union Station when security showed up demanded that the cameras be shut down.

Video irony is here. (new window)

NYPD frequently stops railfans from taking pictures of the subway platforms/trains/etc, too.

I was once pulled over on foot and threatened with arrest for trespassing for crossing rails at an "unapproved grade crossing" which actually was a grade crossing for 100 years before they built an overpass.

The lesson -- don't give bored law enforcement a chance to show you their giant penises.

Amtrak is still around??

sloppy shoes: eddyatwork:
/amtrak

Meh, they aren't the only ones who do this. Lots of places try to prevent photography.

A general police strategy to keep order is to prevent confrontation. See some guys about to fight- break up the verbal assault and tell them to move along. See some guys taking photos in a neighborhood where people don't want him- tell him to delete them and move along. See some protesters- confine them to one area or "freedom of speech zone." (Or, classify it a riot and get out the tear gas). Crime prevention methods work much better than simply arresting those who commit crimes.

The problem with our basic freedoms is that they present basic issues in everyday life. Everyone wants the ability to take pictures without a permit; yet, no one wants some slightly creepy looking dude taking pictures of them in public. Everyone wants to be famous, no one wants the paparazzi. Everyone wants to have freedom of speech- but groups get tired of hate speech, inciting violence (which is illegal), etc...
Scientists get frustrated with religions. (And don't we all). Sometimes religions get tired of scientists. Actually, the ability to believe what you want- which is really what freedom of religion is- is just generally a piss off for individuals and groups. How am I to say that religious people can't believe that gays are bad? But who are they to say that man-on-man action isn't the absolute bestest thing on the planet?

wat

/all I could think of to say
//very high

Its not transportation, its AMTARK

Ennuipoet: Living in Manhattan where every tourist has a camera dangling around their neck, one should not expect this. One, however, would be wrong. I was in Riverbank State Park with my camera last week when security approached me and directed me not to take photos around the "sensitive facility". That "sensitive facility" was a sewage treatment plant. Because, indeed, turrists are plotting to explode our nations valuable poo supply.

They weren't dickish about it, but I still wondered WTF?

I'm in NYC at least once a week on business. One day last spring, it had just finished raining and there was a rainbow over the Verrazanno. I got my camera out of the car & no sooner did I take a picture when a cop came over and told me I had to delete it or he'd confiscate my camera. He wasn't a dick about it, either--just calmly pointed to the sign stating no photography on or around the bridge.

Pity--it was a REALLY nice shot. Those "no photography" laws are the dumbest things on Earth. If I want to blow up the bridge, I'll just use Google Streetview to get a good look at it from all angles.

God. Now I want to organize flash mobs at this station just to have 300 people show up at and take photos of the security cameras there before scattering in all directions.

/link is farked? 403?

I wish we had a nice system of 250 mph trains linking US cities.

Unfortunately, we do not.

2wheeljunkie: I can't tell if the platform was closed, but I think that they are open 24 hrs.

According to Amtrak's site (new window), Penn Station is open 24/7, with the LIRR running trains (new window) all night. Grand Central and Newark Penn Station close overnight. Pretty silly rule, especially with cameras for cell phones becoming more and more sophisticated. How are police going to know if you're taking a picture of a train platform or just watching a video while you wait for your train?

The problem is not laws, or communication, or cameras.

It's the complete failure of the police departments to anticipate and prevent people from joining whose idea of their job consists of farking with people.

This happens to people who photograph trains all the time, not quite the arrest part but the police harassment part happens quite a bit. I would have laughed in the police tried to take the camera from him and deleted the pictures, then he would have been able to have the officers charged with destruction of private property.

/I've only been harassed once and after telling the cop that if the object was in view from a public right of way it was legal to photograph it, other than military bases. He was steaming but just went back into his car and drove away

farked

I remember my Social Studies teacher in the early 80's telling us about his trip to the USSR and that it was illegal there to take pictures of bridges.

/back in the USSR

fluffy2097: God. Now I want to organize flash mobs at this station just to have 300 people show up at and take photos of the security cameras there before scattering in all directions.

/link is farked? 403?

I got a whole 100 more than you when I click on it :)

brigid_fitch: there was a rainbow over the Verrazanno. I got my camera out of the car & no sooner did I take a picture when a cop came over and told me I had to delete it or he'd confiscate my camera.

I've seen those signs on the ramps leading to the bridge, but never on surrounding streets. Where were you? At the toll plaza? On the highway? Or at one of the parks on either side near the bridge? If it was the later, and you weren't that close to the bridge, the cop was probably in the wrong.

I agree the rules are a bit silly. A real terrorist wouldn't be so obvious but I guess the appearance of doing something is good enough. I used to live a block from the Brooklyn Bridge and have a ton of photos (some from underneath).

"Service Temporarily Unavailable"

Welcome to AMFARKED. Sorry you missed your connecting train due to our 1:00 train not leaving until 4:30. Another connecting train will arrive in three days, however we cannot guarantee you a seat.

Have a nice trip!

Here's the article since the link is Farked.

By Carlos Miller
Armed with his Canon 5D and his new Lensbaby lens, photographer Duane Kerzic set out to win Amtrak's annual photo contest this week, hoping to win $1,000 in travel vouchers and have his photo published in Amtrak's annual calendar.

He ended up getting arrested by Amtrak police; handcuffed to a wall in a holding cell inside New York City's Penn Station, accused of criminal trespass.

Kerzic says he was hardly trespassing because he was taking photos from the train platform; the same one used by thousands of commuters everyday to step on and off the train.

"The only reason they arrested me was because I refused to delete my images," Kerzic said in a phone interview with Photography is Not a Crime on Friday.

"They never asked me to leave, they never mentioned anything about trespassing until after I was handcuffed in the holding cell."

In fact, he said, the only thing they told him before handcuffing him was that "it was illegal to take photos of the trains."

Obviously, there is a lack of communication between Amtrak's marketing department, which promotes the annual contest, called Picture Our Trains, and its police department, which has a history of harassing photographers for photographing these same trains.

Not much different than the JetBlue incident from earlier this year where JetBlue flight attendants had a woman arrested for refusing to delete a video she filmed in flight while the JetBlue marketing department hosted a contest encouraging passengers to take photos in flight.

While the Amtrak contest page does state that trespassers are subject to arrest and fines, it also states that contestants must also stay in the "public access areas", which describes the train platform because how else are passengers going to board the train?

As always, Amtrak reminds you to stay out of danger - stay away from tracks and the railroad right-of-way. Do not trespass on railroad property or on private property adjacent to the railroad. Do not climb or approach railroad structures, towers, or wires. Stay in public access areas, and away from railroad structures and moving equipment - in stations, on sidewalks, or in parking lots. All participants expressly release Amtrak from all liability for personal injury and loss or damage to personal property, and expressly assume the risk of harm. Remember, tracks, trestles, yards and equipment are private property - trespassers are subject to arrest and fines.

Also, according to a discussion on this same subject on a website called Trainorders.com, the July 23, 2007 Amtrak weekly newsletter stated there is no prohibition against photography as long as one remains in the public access areas.

"Security: While there is no prohibition against taking
photographs of Amtrak trains, photographs may only be
taken in Amtrak's public areas, not areas restricted by
signs, barriers or locked entrances. Non-public areas,
such as railroad tracks, trestles, yards and equipment,
are private property; trespassers are subject to arrest."

-Amtrak This Week newsletter, 23JUL07

Furthermore, this same issue arose in Washington DC's Union Station earlier this year when a TV news crew ended up interviewing a top dog from Amtrak to determine what is the actual policy on photography in train stations. The Amtrak official said that photography is allowed. Meanwhile, a security guard tried to shut the cameraman down.

That incident lead to US Congresswoman Eleanor Holmes Norton to demand clearer policies about photography from the companies that operated within Union Station.

Kerzic's ordeal began Dec. 21 when he took the train from New Jersey into New York City and debarked at Penn Station. He snapped a photo of the train speeding away, then walked down the platform where he snapped several other photos. He continued taking photos as the platform emptied into Manhattan.

Then he casually walked towards the staircase to make his own way into the city. He stopped before the stairwell to tie his shoe.

When he stood back up, the cops were hovering over him. Two cops and a dog. A black lab with a nose for explosives.

"They asked what I was doing, I said I was taking photos," he said.

"They said put your bag on the ground and let our dog sniff it."

He complied and the dog confirmed he was carrying no explosives in his photo bag. Then they asked for his ID. Then to see the photos.

And then they ordered him to delete the photos.

"I said 'absolutely not'," said the 50-year-old navy veteran who describes himself as a "conservative republican".

They told him it was illegal to photograph the trains.

"I asked where is the sign that says that," he said.

That was when Amtrak police officer James Rusbarsky, badge Number 466, pulled out his handcuffs.

Kerzic said he immediately placed his hands behind his back, but Rusbarsky insisted on placing the handcuffs on him backwards.

"I asked him please put the cuffs on correctly, you're hurting me, and he refused, tightening them instead," he said.

Then they took him to the holding cell where they handcuffed him to a wall, and even then, they still slammed the door locked, in case he somehow broke free.

Kerzic said they never accused him of trespassing until after they had him handcuffed and placed in the cell. He believes they only came up with this charge after they realized there was no law in the books that stated that photography was illegal inside a train station.

"At no time did they tell me to leave the platform," he said. "All they wanted me to do was delete my photos."

Kerzic was released 90 minutes later with a citation for trespassing.

He has sent out letters complaining of the incident to everybody from New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg to New York Senator Hillary Clinton to everybody in between and above, including Amtrak officials, New Jersey Transit officials and even President Bush himself, in case he feels the urge to do some work before he leaves office next month.

He has also contacted a New York City lawyer who specializes in First Amendment cases and the National Press Photographers Association has also been in contact with him.

And he has been documenting his case on his website, including photos of his injured wrist and the various train platforms as well as the letters he has sent out.

Now he plans to return to Penn Station and photograph the cops who arrested him as well as continue taking photos for the Amtrak contest.

"If I win that contest, I would travel all over the country taking photos," he said.

And if he wins the lawsuit, he may end up traveling all over the world.

damageddude: Pretty silly rule, especially with cameras for cell phones becoming more and more sophisticated. How are police going to know if you're taking a picture of a train platform or just watching a video while you wait for your train?

I've never seen a "No Photography" sign at Grand Central or NY Penn Station and I'm there all the time. There was most definitely an official NYC sign on the Verrazanno when the cop told me to delete that photo, though.

My guess is that there IS no law like that for the stations, it's just that, in our post-9/11 society, a lot of ignorant cops & security guards ASSUME there is one. Just like a lot of cops think it's suddenly illegal to photograph or film them while they're on the job.

I hope he assrapes those cops.

Beerguy: Amtrak is still around?? Oh, they're still around alright. They are our, FEDERALLY (new window) funded, friendly commuter service.

I work for a very large software company. About 7 years ago I had to travel to the Reading UK office of said company and was taking pictures of the lobby (it was cool looking). I was shut down by the "security guard" and informed that taking photographs of any XXXXXX facility was not permitted. He watched as I erased them from my camera.

In all fairness they were of very sensitive company materials, like lobby sofas.

damageddude: I agree the rules are a bit silly. A real terrorist wouldn't be so obvious but I guess the appearance of doing something is good enough. I used to live a block from the Brooklyn Bridge and have a ton of photos

I was in traffic at the toll plaza. Traffic wasn't moving, so I had time to get out of my car for a nice shot. Cop came up to the car and asked me to delete it. And it's not a matter of a "real terrorist" being obvious or not, it's the absurdity of the law. How many pictures of the Verrazanno are already availble on a simple GIS search, not to mention Streetview? It's one of those stupid, "make the population feel like we're being proactive" laws that serves no real purpose.

/Not annoyed at the cop--he was polite about it. Not his fault he has to enforce a do-nothing law.

I will admit to not knowing the ins and outs of photography law, but I would imagine Penn Station has the same right to bar photography as casinos do.

momalboe
...In all fairness they were of very sensitive company materials, like lobby sofas.

It is not just a lobby sofa, it is a highly advanced comfort obtainment device. If something like that falls in to the wrong hands who knows what would happen.

Here are a bunch of train station webcams. (new window)
Don't look at them unless you are a terrist.

momalboe: I work for a very large software company. About 7 years ago I had to travel to the Reading UK office of said company and was taking pictures of the lobby (it was cool looking). I was shut down by the "security guard" and informed that taking photographs of any XXXXXX facility was not permitted. He watched as I erased them from my camera.

In all fairness they were of very sensitive company materials, like lobby sofas.

I've seen those sofas too, there's a fair chance if employees of other companies got to see them, or some of the other facilities on that campus, then they'd be inundated by CV's to the extent it could affect their profitability :)

Daniels: I will admit to not knowing the ins and outs of photography law, but I would imagine Penn Station has the same right to bar photography as casinos do.

Except that a train station is not a casino.

This is really a sad time for our country. Feels like we're still far from the bottom yet. Poor America.