Put the blame where it belongs: Hamas.

Anybody funding or supporting either side has at least some level of blame, but that's obvious.

Sometimes it's hard to see the bigger picture... (pops)

but the bigger picture is actually quite simple

while we could discus, who started it and who is to blame and who is funding who (both sides get funding .... why is only one picked out?)

simple truth, this goes back for a LONG time ...
so we can continue the way it is ... or ...
look forward ...

sorry hamas, israel is bigger than you and better armed than you
that is a FACT
the west bank has not been bombed, nor has it fired into israel (they have a peace of sorts)

so, learn to ADMIT that they are bigger than you and they will hurt you more than you hurt them .... PERIOD
nothing really to talk about there

so suck it up, take the "peace" rebuild and rearm .... wait in the dark, for revenge best served cold

cause, otherwise, NOTHING will ever change

the side which support you, will continue to arm HAMAS
and the side which supports isreal, will continue to support them

those are the FACTS of the NOW and the FUTURE
the past, is interesting, only from a historical point of view

1) israel will never be kicked from the UN (they would have MORe freedom to do what they want)
2) you can not BEAT them as you are now
3) the idea that the rest of the muslim world will run to your side? well, it isnt happening ...

/predicts that hamas will continue as they always have

clancifer: Put the blame where it belongs: Hamas.

This isn't solely their fault and to say the only faults belong to Hamas is narrowminded. How did Israel go about acquiring the land now being fought over? Israeli settler policies encouraged that land to be filled with the towns now under fire, land that had former owners. Heavy-handed responses don't help things either. Israel deserves somewhere between 25-40% of the blame here.

GAT_00: This isn't solely their fault and to say the only faults belong to Hamas is narrowminded. How did Israel go about acquiring the land now being fought over? Israeli settler policies encouraged that land to be filled with the towns now under fire, land that had former owners. Heavy-handed responses don't help things either. Israel deserves somewhere between 25-40% of the blame here.

You're not leaving a big enough chunk for the British, the French, the Saudis, the Syrians, the Jordanians, the US... The list of bodies at fault is longer than the list of who isn't.

Occam's Chainsaw: You're not leaving a big enough chunk for the British, the French, the Saudis, the Syrians, the Jordanians, the US... The list of bodies at fault is longer than the list of who isn't.

True. I'm limiting my percentages to just Israel and Hamas. Without that, I'd put Hamas at around 45%, Israel around 25% and the other 30% to everyone else, with some of the bigger percentages going to the US and Syria.

Good.

Why don't we, for a change, decide that we bear a larger share of the burden than our foreign policy currently admits. Let's get, once again, over-involved with brokering a peace instead of allowing illegal settlements to go up year after year and play colonialist games with the governments of all sides (e.g. backing, no training Fatah when we knew they were using that training to attack Israel while we pretend Fatah are the good guys).fark yes. Let us care too much instead of caring too little, and letting our "default" position be the backer of all-strife.

Let us ban clusterbombs ahead of Israel and pressure them to never repeat the disgusting events of the 2006 civilian bombing campaign. Let us broker a deal with China that prevents the militant wing of Hamas from receiving rockets that can be aimed at actual targets to increase Israeli deaths and terror.

Let us make difference on what we already stand accused of.

GAT_00: land that had former owners.

yes
so I will set a date .... AD 0
we will give the land back to whomever owned the land on that date.

keep in mind
that EVERYONE else has a different date which they will CLAIM is more valid than mine

HINT: mine is exactly as random and valid as EVERY other date

every single country exists today at the expensive of the people who lived there before them
EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY

sooooo where and when you draw the line is completely absurd
it has ALWAYS BEEN defined by the winner of the war

dont want that to be "tru" but them are the facts
you can rail about how we SHOULD be more civil, or fair, or xxxx, but in the end, that is how it always has been done

oh yes, strangely enough, there is another way which has also worked QUITE well ...
for example, egypt got "their" land back from israel
they made peace, they got their toys back, and they have not looked back

is it POSSIBLE that negotiation and deplomacy works? between countries?

/sigh .... hamas, please continue as you are going, you will WIN! for sure!! do not give up!! everyone will help. to build a memorial.

Jon Snow: Let us make difference on what we already stand accused of.

strange, this could/would work
we of course, would never do it
sigh

namatad: yes
so I will set a date .... AD 0
we will give the land back to whomever owned the land on that date.

Cool, I'm going to come steal your house at gunpoint, and your previous claim is invalid because it happened in the past, and apparantly to you, the past is bupkis.

I f*cking hate those guys.

GAT_00: How did Israel go about acquiring the land now being fought over?

Hamas considers all of israel as "occupation".

Israeli settler policies encouraged that land to be filled with the towns now under fire

Incorrect. The cities being bombed are withing the green line. However from Hamas' perspective you are correct: to them all of Israel is "Palestine".

Heavy-handed responses don't help things eithe

Israel waited almost a decade before launching this attack.

Yup, the world's superpower that unwaiveringly funds/equips one side of the conflict and vetoes any relative UN actions related thereto is completely devoid of any blame in the matter.

Okay, this is my final offer:

1) Everything within a 30km radius of Jerusalem is hereby rendered off-limits to human beings for the next 500 years, with the following exceptions:
• internationally authorized and academically accredited scientific teams (which shall never exceed 120 persons total),
• duly chosen representative delegations of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions (which shall never exceed 12 persons each) on an annual schedule of their choosing not exceeding 144 hours,
• international observation and peacekeeping patrols, which will be required to remain at a minimum altitude of 100m, except in duly authorized enforcement or rescue situations,
• nobody the fark else.

2) The Palestinians, etc, get the rest of the region currently known as Israel.

3) The Israelis get Alaska.

4) STFU and deal and with it or we'll extend the no man's land embargo to 1000 years and then 2000 and then 4000, you farking brats who insist on different 3 names for the same effing deity. So help me, I'll turn this car around right now.

Procedural Texture: 3) The Israelis get Alaska.

Throw in Sarah Palin and you got a deal.

CruiserTwelve: Procedural Texture: 3) The Israelis get Alaska.

Throw in Sarah Palin and you got a deal.

Sounds like a good porno.

CruiserTwelve: Throw in Sarah Palin and you got a deal.

I'm sorry, the Sarah Palin Problem is far beyond the scope of my Israel-Palestine STFU Treaty©.

Well we have been funding and arming Israel for quite some time. It's not our fault how they behave but we do have a dog in this race.

/is that an expression? It doesn't sound right

Jon Snow: Good.

Why don't we, for a change, decide that we bear a larger share of the burden than our foreign policy currently admits. Let's get, once again, over-involved with brokering a peace instead of allowing illegal settlements to go up year after year and play colonialist games with the governments of all sides (e.g. backing, no training Fatah when we knew they were using that training to attack Israel while we pretend Fatah are the good guys).fark yes. Let us care too much instead of caring too little, and letting our "default" position be the backer of all-strife.

Let us ban clusterbombs ahead of Israel and pressure them to never repeat the disgusting events of the 2006 civilian bombing campaign. Let us broker a deal with China that prevents the militant wing of Hamas from receiving rockets that can be aimed at actual targets to increase Israeli deaths and terror.

Let us make difference on what we already stand accused of.


Fark you Jon Snow with your "reason" and "objective stance". Why do you jump on the team and come in for the big win?

GAT_00: namatad: yes
so I will set a date .... AD 0
we will give the land back to whomever owned the land on that date.

Cool, I'm going to come steal your house at gunpoint, and your previous claim is invalid because it happened in the past, and apparantly to you, the past is bupkis.

And I would have no problem with him killing you, and then to make sure that an end is put to the situation, kill every male relative of yours over the age of 8. Any of your female relative who cannot cope with your stupid death would also have to be slaughtered...sorry.

\I am a bit more bloodthirsty than the average Israeli
\\ But that is to be expected considering my birth country.

Procedural Texture: Okay, this is my final offer:

1) Everything within a 30km radius of Jerusalem is hereby rendered off-limits to human beings for the next 500 years, with the following exceptions:
• internationally authorized and academically accredited scientific teams (which shall never exceed 120 persons total),
• duly chosen representative delegations of the Jewish, Christian and Muslim religions (which shall never exceed 12 persons each) on an annual schedule of their choosing not exceeding 144 hours,
• international observation and peacekeeping patrols, which will be required to remain at a minimum altitude of 100m, except in duly authorized enforcement or rescue situations,
• nobody the fark else.

2) The Palestinians, etc, get the rest of the region currently known as Israel.

3) The Israelis get Alaska.

4) STFU and deal and with it or we'll extend the no man's land embargo to 1000 years and then 2000 and then 4000, you farking brats who insist on different 3 names for the same effing deity. So help me, I'll turn this car around right now.

I Accept on behalf of all the idiots

doyner: Yup, the world's superpower that unwaiveringly funds/equips one side of the conflict and vetoes any relative UN actions related thereto is completely devoid of any blame in the matter.

This.

If the USA stopped protecting Israel, especially with the vetos, there wouldn't be a conflict.
Admittedly, the things the USA has been vetoing in the UN have gotten more ridiculous as time has gone on, but there is a reason why the USA is so hated over there, it is not just all religious nutjobbery...

starsrift: doyner: Yup, the world's superpower that unwaiveringly funds/equips one side of the conflict and vetoes any relative UN actions related thereto is completely devoid of any blame in the matter.

This.

If the USA stopped protecting Israel, especially with the vetos, there wouldn't be a conflict.
Admittedly, the things the USA has been vetoing in the UN have gotten more ridiculous as time has gone on, but there is a reason why the USA is so hated over there, it is not just all religious nutjobbery...

The arabs were pretty happy about America's role during the Suez crisis and Six-day war, which stopped Israel at the Suez and negotiated them giving back the Sinai by 1978.

The US supplies Israel for a strategic peace; it's just that Israel has developed a a political strategy for gaining support of the hardliners by attacking in shock and awe fashion. Except, Israel doesn't want casualties because that isn't savvy politiking, so they bomb the hell out of a city instead of sending in armour and doing sweeps of buildings that are inherently dangerous. This is a sad and cowardly situation, which Israel has come to embrace, but America does not support it.

And yet the peace for the region is still staked on Israel being the regional military power because you never know when Mubarek is going to die in Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood decides that it is a political/Religious imperative to invade Israel. Not even Jordan would touch that mess in fear of their own radicals.
The best situation is to keep trying for negotiations with Israel being in a position of regional power.

The US is not blameless. And please bear in mind that, although I am a US citizen, this is not intended as a defense of US policy.

Israel has allies. The most ardent of its allies, for whatever reasons, is the United States. This is known.

The Palestinians (not sure if they have an official nation yet, but they certainly have a nation-state) also have allies. Really, that area has been isolated by Isreal for decades, yet they have plenty of weapons and supplies for their troops. They're not manufacturing this stuff locally.

You attack a nation with close ties to a powerful nation, you do not expect it to stay local and ignored. That's not what Hamas wants, anyway.

I don't like the statements made by the US, which have been so completely one-sided as to approach ludricous speed. They've gone plaid. But Hamas is getting plenty of support from their own allies; it's just done more quietly because those allies don't want the UN or the US on their case openly.

That being said, this is a land war. It's always been a land war, and it's been happening for millenia.

/I'm on no sleep. No sleep!
//And that red light is burning my brain

Jon Snow: Good.

Why don't we, for a change, decide that we bear a larger share of the burden than our foreign policy currently admits. Let's get, once again, over-involved with brokering a peace instead of allowing illegal settlements to go up year after year and play colonialist games with the governments of all sides (e.g. backing, no training Fatah when we knew they were using that training to attack Israel while we pretend Fatah are the good guys).fark yes. Let us care too much instead of caring too little, and letting our "default" position be the backer of all-strife.

Let us ban clusterbombs ahead of Israel and pressure them to never repeat the disgusting events of the 2006 civilian bombing campaign. Let us broker a deal with China that prevents the militant wing of Hamas from receiving rockets that can be aimed at actual targets to increase Israeli deaths and terror.

Let us make difference on what we already stand accused of.

Or, let us GET THE fark OUT OF THE MIDDLE farkING EAST!

Do you realize that every single foreign problem we've had since the fall of Communism can be directly traced to our own actions in the Middle East?

Bringing the Shah to power eventually gave us a militant Shia Iran that has hated our guts for 40 years, which led to us arming Saddam Hussein in his war against them, which went awry when he decided to attack Kuwait, whose defense disillusioned an ally who we trained and armed against the Russians in Afghanistan, who then promptly blew up the World Trade Center...and then brought it down a decade later.* And still we meddle.

*from my blog entry two farking years ago. And it still applies today.

Who's to blame doesn't farking matter. What matters if what can be done about it. Anyone who thinks this bombing campaign is going to do anything but make things worse is retarded. Israel could kill every single member of Hamas, destroy all of their buildings and icons, and a different militant Palestinian organization would rise up. You cannot fight a "war on terror" with conventional weapons. You have to address the reasons WHY there are terrorists, and especially why they have the support of the people. One of the biggest reasons is bombing campaigns like this one. Evil begets evil. Sure, Hamas does terrible things, but to many Palestinians they are justified by Israel's actions.

In any case, Israel will never stop terrorism from the Palestinians until they recognize their right to a country of their own, stop retaliating tenfold for each attack, and address some of the wrongs of the past 80 years. (And, I doubt they'll do any of that as long as they have the U.S.'s unconditional support.)

They could all die, on both sides, for all the average American cares.



Sad but true.
With recession here, depression coming, Americans will care even less, if that's possible.

Perhaps a re-reading of 'The Haj" is in order/

IlGreven: Or, let us GET THE fark OUT OF THE MIDDLE farkING EAST!

Your newsletter: I would like to subscribe

A question I have posed but has never been answered...

How is Israel to respond when groups like Hamas launch rockets and other such attacks?

NobleHam: In any case, Israel will never stop terrorism from the Palestinians until they recognize their right to a country of their own

Israel does recognize this right, the problem is with the fact that the palestinian leadership wants what is now Israel.

Swampthing in Korea: A question I have posed but has never been answered...

How is Israel to respond when groups like Hamas launch rockets and other such attacks?

10) When attacked, Israel will respond.
20) When attacked, Hamas will respond.
30) Goto 10.

Swampthing in Korea: A question I have posed but has never been answered...

How is Israel to respond when groups like Hamas launch rockets and other such attacks?

By slaughtering the goyim, and rejoicing in the lamentations of their women of course.

Swampthing in Korea: A question I have posed but has never been answered...

How is Israel to respond when groups like Hamas launch rockets and other such attacks?

Unconditional surrender, apparently.

Swampthing in Korea: A question I have posed but has never been answered...

How is Israel to respond when groups like Hamas launch rockets and other such attacks?

I've been watching for that one as well. For those who feel Israel should not have launched this siege, what should have been their response to the rocket attacks?

Pffft. It's a proxy war with Iran.

Plain and simple.

Their response should have been to negotiate a peace: exchange and amnesty for all prisoners would have been the logical gambit.

But no, they had to prove they were tough.

I'll bet the people shouting about Israel or Hamas are the same people who speak directly to puppets.

A lot of people do not know the full story. The media likes to show pictures of masked men marching around with ak's and video clips of thousand pound bombs being dropped and allowing them to judge which side are the terrorist. But the truth is the Average american has been rendered too retarded to ask vital questions their own countries policies let alone those of Isreal. (As if they are any differnt). Listen to the arguments...

"How is Israel to respond when groups like Hamas launch rockets and other such attacks?"

It's the same in Iraq, which is Ireal's war.

I recommend this Documentary if you are interested in the conditions of the people are in the Penal Colonies Isreal creates.

http://freedocumentaries.org/theatre.php?filmid=169&id=1031&wh=1000x720

The west for the most part is not informed enough for the debates on the subject to be an exercise in anything but psychological behaviors, and as I have said in earlier threads the best things to get out of the debates is the mentality of each sides most fervent supporters.

clancifer: Put the blame where it belongs: Hamas.

To paint Hamas as the sole instigator in this would require you to have been living in a bubble world where nothing prior to the end of the ceasefire existed.

I can't fathom the level of willful ignorance that such thinking requires, but kudos to you for managing it.

Swampthing in Korea: How is Israel to respond when groups like Hamas launch rockets and other such attacks?

They could use those super spiffy special ops teams that they're known for to actually attack the people responsible instead of dropping munitions all over the place hoping to hit one or two amidst the dozens to hundreds of civilian casualties.

I've also posted what I think would be the best way to end the conflict many times in these threads, but because it requires the removal of all the illegal settlements it usually winds up being ignored by the "Israel can do no wrong" contingent.

$2.4 billion in aid purchases a lot of violence. The United States should be buying weapons from the middle east and melting them into wheel wells and paperclips.

Murkanen: They could use those super spiffy special ops teams that they're known for to actually attack the people responsible instead of dropping munitions all over the place

Yes, sending people to a suicide mission is the way to go. They could go knock on doors and ask if there are any Hamas terrorists in the house and such.
I assume you have zero military training and watched too many movies.

Land Grab

You're kidding? Do you mean to say that our brilliant policy of trying to play cop and nanny to the whole damn world has once again come around to bite us in the ass? Unpossible!!

Procedural Texture:
3) The Israelis get Alaska.

IDF girls need their tans. Give them Hawaii.

TappingTheVein: Murkanen: They could use those super spiffy special ops teams that they're known for to actually attack the people responsible instead of dropping munitions all over the place

Yes, sending people to a suicide mission is the way to go. They could go knock on doors and ask if there are any Hamas terrorists in the house and such.
I assume you have zero military training and watched too many movies.

It is, and has, been done. Mossad is lucky in the fact that Israelis and Palestinians are the same people, at least the locals and can access good intelligence in Gaza.

The only downside is that special ops teams would eventually get killed or captured, remember 2006; it wouldn't deter rocket attacks, just up the attempted ambushing of said forces and then you would have Gaza newspapers talking about:

A) tortured Israeli soldier through the streets of Gaza or
B) Israeli boogeymen are abducting innocent men in the middle of the night

You basically only have 3 options: Negotiate and include Iran, Attack Iran and cut off logistics, or inflict massive casualties to those able to fight.

TappingTheVein: Yes, sending people to a suicide mission is the way to go.

Sending in highly trained professionals using intel to pinpoint the locations of those responsible vs dropping hundreds of pounds of bombs willy nilly, hoping you hit someone of importance amongst all the unnecessary carnage (as well as generating large amounts of resentment that only serves to fuel attacks later).

You're right, obviously just blowing shiat up is the way to go, how silly of me to think Israel may want to actually try something effective for a change.

jso2897: You're kidding? Do you mean to say that our brilliant policy of trying to play cop and nanny to the whole damn world has once again come around to bite us in the ass? Unpossible!!

It only bites us in the ass when the sitting administration naps during the repercussions.