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(ABC News) Interesting Saudi FM criticizes Palestinians; Saudi AM and Sirius more ambivilent   (abcnews.go.com) divider line 31
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Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 01:41:28 PM  

This is revealing a larger problem for U.S. foreign policy. The Saudis, also have their own fundie problems that they don't want to exacerbate here.

Israel's campaign in Gaza is serving to expose the strategic fault lines in the Arab and Muslim world.

The essential divide is between, on the one hand, states aligned with the West - chief among them Egypt and Saudi Arabia - and on the other an alliance led by Iran, of which Hamas forms a part. Israel's action in Gaza has led to unprecedented tensions between representatives of these rival blocs. Because of the strategic importance of Egyptian control of the Rafah Crossing, this divide also has immediate practical implications for the direction and likely outcome of the current battle.
------

This month in Tehran, Iran's capital, government-orchestrated crowds of students hurled Molotov cocktails at the offices of Saudi Arabian Airlines, attacked Egypt's diplomatic mission and called for Mr Mubarak's execution as a traitor. A leading Tehran daily, Kayhan, meanwhile, blasted him for "subservience to the Zionists" and accused King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia of being "indifferent to the massacre of Gaza's Muslims." A Friday sermon broadcast on Iran's state television advised Palestinians to copy the methods of Hizbullah, the Lebanese Shia party-cum-militia that fought a war with Israel in 2006.

To date, Egypt's government has escaped broad public censure for the restrictions it imposes on the border with Gaza. Last winter, when Hamas breached it, prompting thousands of Palestinians to surge into Egypt on a shopping spree, Egyptian officials countered with an information campaign to stoke nationalist resentment, warning people against an intrusion of Palestinian smugglers, counterfeiters and terrorists. The Egyptians scored points again earlier this month, when Hamas blocked the exit of Gazans headed for the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, on the ground that the Saudis had granted visas only to those who had applied through the PA and not through Hamas. Egyptian diplomats, meanwhile, have sought to rally official Arab support for their view that Hamas's rule in Gaza is illegitimate, even while they have been sponsoring talks to heal the rift between Fatah and its Islamist rivals.

Egypt and its Arab allies have their reasons for keeping Gaza isolated. Their policy began under American pressure soon after Hamas won a Palestinian general election in 2006. Egypt has kept the border closed partly to please America, which props up Mr Mubarak with aid, partly because his government loathes Hamas as a branch of its own Muslim Brotherhood, and partly in the hope of forcing Hamas to cede legitimacy to the PA, thereby keeping prospects for Palestinian unity and future peace dealings with Israel alive. Moreover, fearing that Israel's long-term goal is to dump Gaza and its troubles into Egypt's lap, the Egyptians insist that Israel must remain fully responsible for the territory.
-------

Israeli raids on Gaza have further aggravated the same split among Arabs between Islamists and authoritarian governments. While Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia blame Hamas, many criticizes Arab governments for their passivity
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But the clamor over Gaza has underlined an increasing divide in the Middle East that pits pro-Western countries like Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia against Syria and Iran and their allied militant groups, Hamas and Hezbollah.
----

Egypt, of course, is obligated to keep that border closed with an Egypt-Israeli treaty, and the issue of the Saudis in this is tied with the Egyptians.

 
MacEnvy [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 01:50:47 PM  
Saudi AM just doesn't understand the amplitude of the situation.

/Wah wah wah wahhhhhh (new window)

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 02:15:07 PM  

 
TheCharmerUnderMe [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 02:42:41 PM  
...No static at aaaaaaalllll...

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 03:52:20 PM  
Party Boy: Their policy began under American pressure soon after Hamas won a Palestinian general election in 2006.

BTW, Neocons behind yet another farkup.
....covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America's behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.)

But the secret plan backfired, resulting in a further setback for American foreign policy under Bush. Instead of driving its enemies out of power, the U.S.-backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of Gaza.

Some sources call the scheme "Iran-contra 2.0," recalling that Abrams was convicted
...the rest in link...

 
ilambiquated 2008-12-31 04:24:57 PM  
There is a lot to work with here.

 
Ted Kennedy's Brain Tumor 2008-12-31 04:26:49 PM  
Is old news suppose to be exciting, Party Boy? The Iranians haven't been well received by their Arab neighbors since the latter's appearance in the region. The situation in Palestine isn't the basis for this antagonism. Saddam's al-Qādisiyyah? Funding Iraq during their eight year struggle with Iran? It's always been.

 
5_second_rule 2008-12-31 04:28:22 PM  
Darconix:

That would require learning (which neocon wing nuts find elitist) at least one different language and the ability to drive a straight truck. Im not sure whether they are allowed CB radios but I will find out. Actually Thomas Jefferson, who owned a Koran that Obama will be sworn in on and farked his slaves, would approve of your intellectual curiosity.

Happy New Year

 
BMulligan 2008-12-31 04:37:59 PM  
Darconix: I've always thought it would be hysterical if I were in Israel to get on the CB/equivalent and start spouting random stuff at Arabs I encounter on the airwaves.

This sounds like exactly the sort of thing you would find hysterical. You also seem to find it hysterical to spout random stuff on Fark - something which the rest of us find merely tedious.

/Apologies to all those who wisely have Darconix on ignore....

 
SherKhan 2008-12-31 04:41:26 PM  
FM if they can't take a joke.

 
RanDomino 2008-12-31 04:46:23 PM  
BMulligan
/Apologies to all those who wisely have Darconix on ignore....

next time, I de-favorite you.

 
pootsie 2008-12-31 05:07:26 PM  
Darconix: you assclowns who try to wield your own ignore lists as if they were nightclubs

nightstick
billyclub

Choose one.

Nightclubs are too much fun to let you into one.

 
jcooli09 2008-12-31 05:08:26 PM  
Darconix: blah, blah, blah... pretending to have something to say and that being ignored somehow hurts the ignorer... blah blah blah

You miss the point. You aren't ignored because you are objectionable, but because you have nothing to say.

This is especially helpful in some of the longer threads, where filtering out noise helps keep them to manageable size. I ignore you and several others while I'm in those, it helps to keep track of the relevant comments.

I will say that you've changed quite a bit. Not only have you dropped the chairman Obama bit, you've also stepped up and embraced your bigotry. I find it refreshing, and wish the rest of the right wing would follow your lead. Some who have ignored you for a long time might want to turn it off for a while to see the difference.

 
dasqoot 2008-12-31 05:12:45 PM  
img71.imageshack.us

 
Aarontology [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 05:17:33 PM  
jcooli09: You miss the point. You aren't ignored because you are objectionable, but because you have nothing to say.

I applaud your effort, but trying to explain anything to it is like trying to teach a dog English. It knows you're attempting to do something, but lacks the cognitive abilities to understand anything you are saying.

 
jcooli09 2008-12-31 05:22:50 PM  
Aarontology:
I applaud your effort, but trying to explain anything to it is like trying to teach a dog English. It knows you're attempting to do something, but lacks the cognitive abilities to understand anything you are saying.


I know, I just like to poke him with a stick.

\I miss Skookum
\\I made the list!

 
Aarontology [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 05:26:28 PM  
jcooli09: \I miss Skookum
\\I made the list!


As do I. I was always a little bummed that I didn't make The List

 
Dr Dreidel 2008-12-31 05:30:44 PM  
ambivAlent?

// ambiguous valence
// not sure how to spin this one

 
beoswulf 2008-12-31 05:32:06 PM  
Party Boy: . While Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia blame Hamas, many criticizes Arab governments for their passivity

Why would they want their governments involved? Every time an Arab government gets involved in a war the Arabs end up losing more land to Israel. Arab governments have only gotten land back through negotiations and not listening to the belligerent Arab public.

 
jcooli09 2008-12-31 05:33:37 PM  
Aarontology:

As do I. I was always a little bummed that I didn't make The List


How did you manage to miss it? He put everyone in the Sarah Palin email thread in there, there were 1600+ comments (some very funny)

 
Aarontology [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 05:44:19 PM  
jcooli09: Aarontology:

As do I. I was always a little bummed that I didn't make The List

How did you manage to miss it? He put everyone in the Sarah Palin email thread in there, there were 1600+ comments (some very funny)


I guess I'm just not worty of being disappeared by a tyrant.

 
EdgeRunner 2008-12-31 05:47:01 PM  
BMulligan: You also seem to find it hysterical to spout random stuff on Fark - something which the rest of us find merely tedious.

Hoopy spadoo wankle walrus bum titty! Dingle dangle dongle crotch banana pizza! Millennium hand and shrimp!

/ok, I could see a whole thread of that being tedious, but every now and again it's kind of fun! Scrotum painting cheese weasels!

 
BMulligan 2008-12-31 05:54:20 PM  
RanDomino: next time, I de-favorite you.

Fair enough. I don't blame you.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 05:59:02 PM  
beoswulf: Why would they want their governments involved? Every time an Arab government gets involved in a war the Arabs end up losing more land to Israel. Arab governments have only gotten land back through negotiations and not listening to the belligerent Arab public.

I'm an American. This is a conflict that has direct ramifications beyond the enragement of the Mid East street and the strain the (non-Israeli) pro-US governments in the region. relevant repost
Here's a poll thats stuck in my craw. Muslims in various Middle Eastern countries were polled on the goals of al Qaeda. Guess which one was the top one they agreed with?


PDF poll
Muslim Public Opinion on
US Policy, Attacks on Civilians
and al Qaeda


(p 17)
To push the US to stop favoring Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians
76% total
---

to

(via Yoweigh)

George Washington's warnings and U.S. policy towards Israel

Glenn Greenwald: In a democracy, one could expect that politicians would be afraid to express a view that 70% of the citizens oppose. Yet here we have the exact opposite situation: no mainstream politician would dare express the view that 70% of Americans support; instead, the universal piety is the one that only a small minority accept. Isn't that fairly compelling evidence of the complete disconnect between our political elites and the people they purportedly represent?

 
Manfred J. Hattan 2008-12-31 06:26:12 PM  
Party Boy: George Washington's warnings and U.S. policy towards Israel

Glenn Greenwald: In a democracy, one could expect that politicians would be afraid to express a view that 70% of the citizens oppose. Yet here we have the exact opposite situation: no mainstream politician would dare express the view that 70% of Americans support; instead, the universal piety is the one that only a small minority accept. Isn't that fairly compelling evidence of the complete disconnect between our political elites and the people they purportedly represent?


Jesus, that's more misleading than a pewter compass. In fact, 66% of Americans believe that the United States should back Israel, and only 6% are terrorist supporters. (new window) Israel is America's fifth favorite country, with a 77% favorable rating. (new window) This support is not new (new window).

As regards the current action, 44% support it, while another 41% would have preferred more diplomacy first (new window). Presumably many of those 41% did not have rockets landing outside their houses for the past few years, since among those who have been following the situation "closely" fully 2/3 support the strikes. Four times as many Americans blame the Palestinians for the conflict as blame the Israelis.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 06:37:24 PM  
Manfred J. Hattan: Jesus, that's more misleading than a pewter compass

I was waiting for someone to post that, because this poll has been used as some sort counter to that poll. The only thing misleading is the title for the headline of your poll.

Here's one hit.
The critical question which the survey does not address is, what do most Americans think our policy should be toward Israel and the Palestinians? Specifically, do most Americans favor the "special relationship," where we unconditionally give Israel abundant material aid and firm diplomatic backing? This policy -- which has been our actual policy for many years -- means that we back Israel to the hilt no matter what it does to the Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. We favor Israel over the Palestinians, and indeed, favor Israel in any conflict in which it is involved, like the Lebanon war in 2006.

The answer to that critical question is that most Americans do not support the special relationship. They are much more critical of Israeli policy than their elected representatives are and they are far more willing to support a hard-nosed approach to dealing with the Jewish state than most policymakers would be. For example, a 2003 survey conducted by the University of Maryland's Program on International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) found that 60 percent of Americans were willing to withhold aid to Israel if it resisted U.S. pressure to settle its conflict with the Palestinians. In fact, 73 percent of those surveyed said the United States should not favor either side in the conflict. Two years later, a survey commissioned by the Anti-Defamation League found that 78 percent of Americans believed that Washington should favor neither Israel nor the Palestinians. A July 1, 2008 poll ("World
Public Opinion on the
Israeli-Palestinian Conflict,")
conducted by (PIPA) found that 71 percent of Americans believe that we should take neither side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict; only 21%
think we should take Israel's side.


 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 06:42:23 PM  
Manfred J. Hattan: misleading

On that note, from the ADL, Uni of Maryland, and World Public opinion, yes our contry favors Israel, we also do not, as a large majority, do not support a unconditional special relationship.

and I'm out.

 
itazurakko [TotalFark] 2008-12-31 08:16:53 PM  
Party Boy: This is revealing a larger problem for U.S. foreign policy... [etc]

Thanks for the interesting links.

Today's NYTimes had an article mentioning tensions in Egypt in particular, between the government and its suppression of its own Islamist movement, the Islamic Brotherhood. If they are too much pro-Hamas, they fear giving legitimacy to Islamist movements, but if they're too anti, they get hate from the local street which has some favor for those movements.

There is definitely tension between secular pan-Arab nationalism type movements, and the Islamist stuff.

Yesterday's paper had some mention too of the split between Fatah and Hamas, pointing out that, sympathetic or not, to many in Gaza the "safe line" that Fatah has taken only appears to be fruitless, they don't see any gains, settlements are still happening in the West Bank, there are no meaningful negotiations, the separation wall is still going up unilaterally on borders that haven't been negotiated, etc, so the attitude is "well obviously that 'be nice' plan isn't working, so we'll revert to military resistance." I found it interesting in that it was one article not focusing on Hamas in isolation.

Anyway, I see you left but as always thanks for the links.

 
GratuityIncluded 2008-12-31 09:14:03 PM  
Looks like this is all about taking a position against the Persians and their allies.

 
Broz_Tito 2008-12-31 10:26:42 PM  
Hezbollah are shia , Saudis are suni muslims.

 
snow9999 2009-01-01 04:40:27 AM  
Darconix 2008-12-31 04:02:24 PM
I've always thought it would be hysterical if I were in Israel to get on the CB/equivalent and start spouting random stuff at Arabs I encounter on the airwaves.

You would like insult three people, Cool!!!

/I promise to stay off your lawn.

 
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