I'm going to start war-driving around new age stores just to see if anyone's head explodes.

"I had a radiation expert come round to take measurements at our old home which was within sight of one of the masts. The highest reading was in Elliot's room.

I like how they don't mention what the reading was.

Wasn't there some town in the U.S. (in Arizona, I think) that had similar complaints about Wi-Fi making them ill?

At some point I think we're going to have to, officially, abandon prudent scientific restraint and just call these people idiots. I mean officially. Put an ad-hominem in the town charter saying that "Dr. X N.D. is not credible because he is a moron, and therefore is no longer allowed to speak about science."

//I keed, but we can all dream of a world where scientifically rigorous fascists control the world.

"Meanwhile soothsayers, astrologers and other opponents of the wi-fi system have resorted to an alternative technology - known as "orgone" - to combat the alleged negative effects of the high-tech system."

Who is this Orgone person and where can I meet it?

/probably at ground-henge.

Bathia_Mapes: Wasn't there some town in the U.S. (in Arizona, I think) that had similar complaints about Wi-Fi making them ill?

That's the Taos Hum noise, or sometimes known as the Bristol Hum. It's always The Hum.

Bathia_Mapes: Wasn't there some town in the U.S. (in Arizona, I think) that had similar complaints about Wi-Fi making them ill?

Any town with a connection to the internets gets people lodging official complaints against everything from chem trails to dihydrous monoxide tainting the ground water. We have a guy that comes to city council once every two weeks to update "the city council, George Bush, the Honorable Kofi Annan, associated Kung Fu Masters, and ALL WORLD ALLIES (he yells that part)" on his latest struggle with a local bicycle shop, and a local actress and woman of power who tried to use astrological powers to control his mind, which he successfully defeated before going to Sports Authority. One of the employees at which is apparently very rich and out to get him.

//Yes, it's as nutty as he sounds.
//http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fMXlBVN1CQ&feature=related

There's an easy way to protect yourself from the wifi.

bingethinker: There's an easy way to protect yourself from the wifi.

Those two people behind him are very amused.

Tell you what, let's strap a device which emits electro-magnetic waves to YOU and see what happens.

Oh... you have... oh... cel phone? OK... How're those testicles doin'? (new window)

I wonder if any of these people use a microwave oven. My radio scanner shows a much stronger signal from my microwave oven (when its on) than my wifi :)

neonstz: a much stronger signal from my microwave oven (when its on) than my wifi

True, I totally know people who leave their microwave ovens on for at least 24 hours a day.

As someone who studied nuclear and atomic physics, and also worked at a environmental non-profit (ahem, hippies, cough - although a smaller percentage than you'd think), I have officially given up on trying to explain anything remotely dealing with radiation to idiots.

Folks who are legitimately curious and maybe just have a misconception or two, or aren't fans of nuclear power and up for a debate? Sweet.

Start talking to me about how microwaves make your food radioactive? Screw being polite 'cause we're at a party and you know my friend or whatever. I'm just going to GTFO.

StreetlightInTheGhetto: As someone who studied nuclear and atomic physics

... I have to be at the gym in 26 minutes.

Sun God: google Wilhelm Reich. The Orgone Accumulator is a full-body tinfoil hat. My parents had a friend who was a psychiatrist and a Reichian practitioner.

ZipSplat: At some point I think we're going to have to, officially, abandon prudent scientific restraint and just call these people idiots. I mean officially. Put an ad-hominem in the town charter saying that "Dr. X N.D. is not credible because he is a moron, and therefore is no longer allowed to speak about science."

//I keed, but we can all dream of a world where scientifically rigorous fascists control the world.

Let's see what we can find in the article:

"Matt Todd, who campaigns against EMFs, said that residents had complained that chakras and ley lines are being disrupted. "They believe positive energy flows are being disturbed," he said.

Mr Todd has started building small generators which he believes can neutralise the allegedly-harmful radiation using the principles of orgone science...

Orgone science was developed by the Austro-Hungarian psychoanalyst Wilhelm Reich, who claimed all living matter contains a biological energy. Mr Todd added: "The science hasn't really got into the mainstream because the Government won't make decisions which will affect big business, even if it concerns everyone's health."

I think we can quite safely call these people idiots. Anyone who throws around the word "science" to justify their outrageous claims, and clearly doesn't know the meaning of the word, is a deluded moron.

On the other hand, converting these people's houses into giant Faraday cages could be a good money-spinner, if it isn't too close to actual science for their tastes.

Mr Todd has started building small generators which he believes can neutralise the allegedly-harmful radiation using the principles of orgone science. The pyramid-like machines use quartz crystals, selenite (a clear form of the mineral gypsum), semi-precious lapis lazuli stones, gold leaf and copper coil to absorb and recycle the supposedly-negative energy.

Yeah, wow.

I have datas in my lungs and they're clogging my bronchis.

Boy, I sure would be willing to fund some research that studied the cleaning power of cocaine.

Gordon Bennett: "Matt Todd, who campaigns against EMFs, said that residents had complained that chakras and ley lines are being disrupted. "They believe positive energy flows are being disturbed," he said.

That makes sense, after all, electricity is a bunch of electrons moving about, and electrons carry a negative charge, so that's negative energy right there!

/morans

3rdLostPassword: Tell you what, let's strap a device which emits electro-magnetic waves to YOU and see what happens.

Your own body emits electromagnetic waves.

Is your mind blown?

LUDDITES LIVE!

and then there are the Breathearians... who easily have as much credibility as these claimants

I believe them.

Last One Left: I'm going to start war-driving around new age stores just to see if anyone's head explodes.

"I had a radiation expert come round to take measurements at our old home which was within sight of one of the masts. The highest reading was in Elliot's room.

I like how they don't mention what the reading was.

It was four bars.

So, free wi-fi may make these idiots leave because they're afraid of it?

I will begin petitioning my city council immediately to begin installation.

It'll spook the horses!

3rdLostPassword: Tell you what, let's strap a device which emits electro-magnetic waves to YOU and see what happens.

Oh... you have... oh... cel phone? OK... How're those testicles doin'? (new window)

You realize that the article you linked tells you explicitly why drawing the conclusion you're drawing from the data provided makes you an idiot, right? Is this intentional sarcasm, or unintentional self-pwnage?

Gordon Bennett: On the other hand, converting these people's houses into giant Faraday cages could be a good money-spinner, if it isn't too close to actual science for their tastes.

That's what I was thinking. How affluent are the residents of Glastonbury anyway?

and yet, all these loonies MUST have their cell phones, so they can publicly yammer on loudly and endlessly about minute details of their idiotic lives

Where are the reports of people being positively affected by WiFi?
"Oi! Me 'eadache's gone! Cheers, WiFi!"
Or people being negatively affected by ley lines, etc.?

/effected

This just in: you are mostly transparent to microwave radiation. It passes right through your body, and you only absorb a very small amount. When we're talking about the already low power energy coming off your average wi-fi router outputs 18dBm or roughly 63mW of radio power. Keep in mind the inverse square law, and that means power drops off dramatically as you move away from it. You won't be getting anything like 63mW unless you routinely keep the antenna in your ass.

Of that minuscule wattage, you will absorb only a fraction of it. A small fraction at that.

Now, obviously, municipal wi-fi systems are using much more powerful transmitters to get better range, but the inverse square law applies. You aren't going to be nearly as close to them as the router in your living room.

Oh, Subby, nice, but so close to a two-fer: "ray-cyst" and you would've nailed it.

Most Americans, starting sometime early in the 20th Century, have been subjected to ever increasing amounts of EMF energy. First radio, then radar and shortly after that TV, then micro-wave communication towers, and microwave ovens. Starting in the 60's all these forms of EMF exploded in quantity, with thousands of new stations, channels, microwave towers and radar stations being added pretty much blanketing the country except (maybe) in extremely isolated areas. Today even those areas get some EMF energy, if only from overhead geological or spy satellites which use radar to map the surface of the earth.

These people have been 'exposed' to EMF all their life. So had their parents, and probably, grandparents. Even if you do not own or use a cell phone, you probably live in an area in which cell phone towers broadcast, so you get 'dosed' even if you don't personally use them. Maybe all the studies done up until now about the lack of any harmful effect (at least under ordinary conditions, don't stand right in front of a military grade hi power radar antenna) are wrong, and they are right.

Prove it. In a repeatable, verifiable way, that people other than those who already believe in your point of view get the same result when performing the same experiment.

moof: That makes sense, after all, electricity is a bunch of electrons moving about, and electrons carry a negative charge, so that's negative energy right there!

Gordon Bennett: ...On the other hand, converting these people's houses into giant Faraday cages could be a good money-spinner, if it isn't too close to actual science for their tastes.

Faraday Cages...

We're sitting on a GOLDMINE, I tell ya!

Dummies, why are they worried about this? Everyone knows we're all going to cease to exist when the vacuum metastability event arrives anyway.

G2V: Dummies, why are they worried about this? Everyone knows we're all going to cease to exist when the vacuum metastability event arrives anyway.

2012. Mayan Calendar. End of story.

The most powerful WiFi cards you can get your hands on are the Ubiquiti SR and XR series. They're rated at 400-600 milliwatts, or 60-28 dBm. Even if you're using a highly-directional antenna (15 degrees), as long as you're not putting an amplifier in line (and unless you're the government, an idiot, or both, you're not), they're safe for 24-hour exposure as long as you're more than three inches away, if I recall my math correctly. Any further than that and inverse square pwns any possibility they're a danger to you.

Scientific evidence or GTFO.

Jouster: The most powerful WiFi cards you can get your hands on are the Ubiquiti SR and XR series. They're rated at 400-600 milliwatts, or 60-28 dBm. Even if you're using a highly-directional antenna (15 degrees), as long as you're not putting an amplifier in line (and unless you're the government, an idiot, or both, you're not), they're safe for 24-hour exposure as long as you're more than three inches away, if I recall my math correctly. Any further than that and inverse square pwns any possibility they're a danger to you.

Bah, bad edit. I meant "26-28" dBm, of course.

/Though, let's face it, 60 dBm would be awesome.
//You could run a radio station on that.
///And I'm not talking ShoutCast.

PunGent
Oh, Subby, nice, but so close to a two-fer: "ray-cyst" and you would've nailed it.

Had the same thought. However, close only counts in horse shoes and hand grenades, so no +1 for Subby.
Still, the whole cellphone cancer thing is from what I've read still up in the air. (no pun intended) As to Wi-Fi, well, unless you wear the transceiver on your head I don't think the signal strength is going to be enough to harm you as it attenuates pretty rapidly. Radar on the other hand... My brother used to work on radar in the army, the old Tip C 25s and '58s they would take hot dogs into the field, put them on sticks and hold them up in front of the antenna to cook. To this day he can't wear an electric watch be it analog or digital because it will die over night. He hasn't gotten cancer yet, though being in the 82nd he did blow his knees out. He's still waiting for his appointment at Walter Reed to get them fixed.

Because, of course, electromagnetic radiation introduces Virus and Bacterium into the warm, moist environment of your lungs.

/stupid people

Day_Old_Dutchie: Gordon Bennett: ...On the other hand, converting these people's houses into giant Faraday cages could be a good money-spinner, if it isn't too close to actual science for their tastes.

Faraday Cages...

We're sitting on a GOLDMINE, I tell ya!

I think that's just a cage.

"Still, the whole cellphone cancer thing is from what I've read still up in the air."

It is? Has anyone ever shown conclusively that there is damage from non-ionizing radiation (ie long wavelength) that occurs before just simple damage due to burning?

If you can't think of a theoretical reason for something, and you can't show it experimentally, I have a hard time calling the issue "up in the air"

"Matt Todd, who campaigns against EMFs, said that residents had complained that chakras and ley lines are being disrupted. "They believe positive energy flows are being disturbed," he said.

seriously?

wow...just wow.

Somaticasual: I think that's just a cage.

But it's got Michael Faraday in it. It may not be a Faraday Cage, but clearly it's Faraday's Cage.


You ever just stop and look at word because it looks weird? Cage is a weird word.

cage

cot: "Still, the whole cellphone cancer thing is from what I've read still up in the air."

It is? Has anyone ever shown conclusively that there is damage from non-ionizing radiation (ie long wavelength) that occurs before just simple damage due to burning?

If you can't think of a theoretical reason for something, and you can't show it experimentally, I have a hard time calling the issue "up in the air"

like how Bush said that "the jury was still out" on evolution.

Yet another fine reminder that ignorance is bliss..

//"hippie crystal-gripping nonsense" - karie(sp?) from mythbusters..

"Initially wi-fi was a development I welcomed with open arms, especially with teenage children who need to be on-line almost all the time."

A *NEED* is something a human cannot survive without. Food, warm clothing (where the environment calls for it), shelter, and fresh water. The Internet is a nice perk, but not a *NEED*.

Electromagnetic radiation, eh? It's mostly in the microwave wavelengths, which are longer than infrared, which is longer than visible light.

The energy carried by electromagnetic radiation is inversely proportional to its wavelength. So, something with a short wavelength (UV rays, x-rays, gamma rays) will carry far more energy than visible light, which will carry far more energy than microwave radiation.

They're complaining that light is making them ill, and this light has FAR less energy than the light they see every day.

/not a physicist
//has some basic physics training