Only the Republicans with their budget cuts can save California. Raising taxes will only make things worse.

Arnold thrown under the GOP bus in 5...4...3...2...

/Sorry
//I hate the phrase as much as you do

Don't "Democrat" and "Republican" mean different things in California?

I am consistently staggered by the simplistic blacks and whites used to paint the headlines here.

That state is sooo screwed.

Gee if only there were a large group of second class citizens they could charge for getting a license to get married.

ARNOLD IS NUMERO UNO

For those of you who don't RTFA here is the pic subby was talking about:




/obvious skeletor is obvious

holiday_inn_in_cambodia: For those of you who don't RTFA here is the pic subby was talking about:

/obvious skeletor is obviousfark me, broken link. just forget about me folks.
/i'm used to it

Lack of cooperation leads to economic collapse. Political posturing based off sound bite politics isn't worth the welfare of your people. If both sides can't come to agreement, then EVERYONE should be fired or resign and new elections can be called so the people can find representatives who are willing to do what is needed.

This is true for California and the rest of the nation. Wake up people, the shiat is hitting the fan as we speak and there are those in positions of power who think their ideals are completely inflexible, even at the cost of the financial stability of the people they represent.

The costs are too high for this kind of thing to be happening.

Anybody got a bigger `o'?

Renowned transvestite sexologist: new elections can be called so the people can find representatives who are willing to do what is needed.

New elections almost certainly would not pick people capable of fixing these problems.

FTFA: Democrats say they have found a way to get around the two-thirds requirement by claiming their $18 billion plan does not technically increase the amount of taxes on Californians.

Instead, they say it eliminates gas taxes and replaces them with a variety of other charges, including raising the state sales tax by three-quarters of a percentage point, boosting personal income taxes by 2.5 percent, taxing companies that extract oil from California and collecting taxes from independent contractors upfront.

It then replaces the gas taxes with what Democrats call a gasoline fee that would go solely to transportation projects. Because the fee is dedicated to a single purpose, it does not require a two-thirds vote.

This is why I, as liberal as I am, can never be a Democrat.

Renowned transvestite sexologist: Wake up people, the shiat is hitting the fan as we speak and there are those in positions of power who think their ideals are completely inflexible, even at the cost of the financial stability of the people they represent.

The problem is left and right have fundamental disagreements as to how to fix said problem. Though, both caused it and both will make it worse, IMO.

brainiac-dumdum: FTFA: Democrats say they have found a way to get around the two-thirds requirement by claiming their $18 billion plan does not technically increase the amount of taxes on Californians.

Instead, they say it eliminates gas taxes and replaces them with a variety of other charges, including raising the state sales tax by three-quarters of a percentage point, boosting personal income taxes by 2.5 percent, taxing companies that extract oil from California and collecting taxes from independent contractors upfront.

It then replaces the gas taxes with what Democrats call a gasoline fee that would go solely to transportation projects. Because the fee is dedicated to a single purpose, it does not require a two-thirds vote.

This is why I, as liberal as I am, can never be a Democrat.

Gas "taxes" were suppose to go to something other than transportation related expenses?

I imagine a few years from now that the gas "fee" will go toward other things as well.

God I hate California, why the fark am I packing up to go there for the holiday?

still the republics should realize that dems have a strong majority in both houses. Republicans are being totally inflexible and as a citizen living in California I say that this is totally unacceptable.

And just think.... soon the entire country will be just as awesome as California. (new window)

Jeffrey.Rodriguez:

It doesn't matter if they have a fundamental problem with the solution. So does EVERYONE else. Is it so hard to ask that people sign off on an imperfect bill that accomplishes what is needed? Everyone voting yes will have a problem with it, but at least the government did what was necessary. They are supposedly grownups after all.

Doem: Republicans are being totally inflexible and as a citizen living in California I say that this is totally unacceptable.

From my (limited) understanding, there's no reason to be flexible. Their constituents are pretty right-wing and if they bend they'll simply be ousted in the primaries. Which leaves us in this fine mess.

Well, that and the fact that it takes a 2/3rds majority to raise taxes and a simple majority to cut them. That was a disaster waiting to happen.

California is at or near the top in sales, income, corporate, and gasoline taxes. It's solidly in the middle in property taxes, and that's only because Proposition 13 put a limit on them. And yet the state has still managed to spend itself into bankruptcy and the Democrats scream that we must feed more of our money into the maw of government. If Arnold signs this, there's going to be a tax revolt and a storm of initiatives.

Doem: still the republics should realize that dems have a strong majority in both houses. Republicans are being totally inflexible and as a citizen living in California I say that this is totally unacceptable.

The Dems have had a strong majority forever and look where it has gotten them? Illegal aliens cost the state tens of millions a year. When will someone acknowledge this?

Great Metal Jesus: Doem: Republicans are being totally inflexible and as a citizen living in California I say that this is totally unacceptable.

From my (limited) understanding, there's no reason to be flexible. Their constituents are pretty right-wing and if they bend they'll simply be ousted in the primaries. Which leaves us in this fine mess.

Well, that and the fact that it takes a 2/3rds majority to raise taxes and a simple majority to cut them. That was a disaster waiting to happen.

that is correct. that is why i am for any legal rangling that will by pass the republican standoff. They are unwilling to negotiate and have stated that openly numerous times

sarcastrophe: And just think.... soon the entire country will be just as awesome as California. (new window)

Their social liberalism is fine with me. And yes, it will be undoubtedly expensive as it costs money to improve our lives. With California in the majority driver's seat, we can expect many progressive changes, and Republican b*tching about funding. We can only hope that Cali forces the rest of the country to focus on basic domestic needs and keep the White House in check when it feels like blowing up brown people.

Some of you people amaze me. The first question out of your mouths when a politician wants to raise your taxes should be, "What the hell have you done with the money we've already given you?" Did you ever wonder how the state managed to build a fabulous road system, public infrastructure, and schools that were the envy of the world back when taxes on everything were half what they are now?

Doem: Great Metal Jesus: Doem: Republicans are being totally inflexible and as a citizen living in California I say that this is totally unacceptable.

From my (limited) understanding, there's no reason to be flexible. Their constituents are pretty right-wing and if they bend they'll simply be ousted in the primaries. Which leaves us in this fine mess.

Well, that and the fact that it takes a 2/3rds majority to raise taxes and a simple majority to cut them. That was a disaster waiting to happen.

that is correct. that is why i am for any legal rangling that will by pass the republican standoff. They are unwilling to negotiate and have stated that openly numerous times

Name a tax "cut" that's taken place in California in the last decade, other than the increased car tax that was in effect for about ten minutes before it got repealed in the face of public revolt.

jjorsett: California is at or near the top in sales, income, corporate, and gasoline taxes. It's solidly in the middle in property taxes, and that's only because Proposition 13 put a limit on them. And yet the state has still managed to spend itself into bankruptcy and the Democrats scream that we must feed more of our money into the maw of government. If Arnold signs this, there's going to be a tax revolt and a storm of initiatives.

What does their tax rank have to do with anything? What spending should the state stop?

whidbey: Their social liberalism is fine with me. And yes, it will be undoubtedly expensive as it costs money to improve our lives. With California in the majority driver's seat, we can expect many progressive changes, and Republican b*tching about funding. We can only hope that Cali forces the rest of the country to focus on basic domestic needs and keep the White House in check when it feels like blowing up brown people.

The government doesn't have any money... that's the point. The Republicans have bankrupted us as a nation (with help from the Democrats). The neo-conservative experiment has failed and no one in either party really considers fiscal conservatives seriously at the federal level.

The only difference between the states and the federal government is that the feds can just create money. The states do not have that luxury, which is why this is a big deal. If the feds ran the federal government the same way the states ran the state governments, we'd all be better off.

So what happens if California were to go bankrupt in 70 days? The chances of that happening are ZERO of course, but what if...

jjorsett: Some of you people amaze me. The first question out of your mouths when a politician wants to raise your taxes should be, "What the hell have you done with the money we've already given you?" Did you ever wonder how the state managed to build a fabulous road system, public infrastructure, and schools that were the envy of the world back when taxes on everything were half what they are now?

Now is not the time for the JJ

Californian's voted for all of that. You may think we are crazy for doing so but we did over and over and over again. Now is not the time to start a protest over that.

we have minority party in our legislature who are disregarding the fact that California spends a lot money because the people wanted it that way. if they want to reverse that cool, let the people of california express that with their votes and with props. It is wrong for the repbulicans to use this financial crisis as leverage for their agenda (which is in the minority in the state)

aaahh fark California...

It won't be here in 4 years anyway...

Might as well run up the tab...

Doem: jjorsett: Some of you people amaze me. The first question out of your mouths when a politician wants to raise your taxes should be, "What the hell have you done with the money we've already given you?" Did you ever wonder how the state managed to build a fabulous road system, public infrastructure, and schools that were the envy of the world back when taxes on everything were half what they are now?

Now is not the time for the JJ

Californian's voted for all of that. You may think we are crazy for doing so but we did over and over and over again. Now is not the time to start a protest over that.

we have minority party in our legislature who are disregarding the fact that California spends a lot money because the people wanted it that way. if they want to reverse that cool, let the people of california express that with their votes and with props. It is wrong for the repbulicans to use this financial crisis as leverage for their agenda (which is in the minority in the state)

The people in their wisdom also voted (as part of Proposition 13) for the two-thirds requirement for passage of tax increases. That requirement hasn't been satisfied, so the Democrats are attempting an end run around the law. Your argument is self-contradictory.

What a mensch.

Seriously, "screw you guys, let's fix this" >> "party loyalty"

/Voted Libertarian/Democrat every election he could.
//He would have my vote for Prez
///Probably doesn't want it.
////Which is why I like him
//I would vote against making him eligible
/slashies!!

The Democratic plan would begin to address the deficit with $9.3 billion in tax and fee increases, $7.3 billion in cuts and another $1.5 billion in labor concessions, court rollbacks and other moves.
=======================

YAY! Someone FINALLY knows how to do it.

Raise taxes and lower spending. Holy shiate. Someone pinch me, I must be dreaming.

jjorsett: The people in their wisdom also voted (as part of Proposition 13) for the two-thirds requirement for passage of tax increases. That requirement hasn't been satisfied, so the Democrats are attempting an end run around the law. Your argument is self-contradictory.

Democracy only counts when it rules in favor of Democrats. Check the Prop 8 threads.

Republicans are anti-everything, and fail to look at issues in a solution-based mindset.

Case in point, how do we make sure nobody's breaking or abusing laws? There's two general solutions. One is regulation, the other is litigation. America, comparitively, is a litigation-based system, with little regulation.

Republicans hate regulation (it equates to COMMMMMMUNISM!!!!)
Republicans hate litigation (Trial lawyers are destroying the country.)

Any solutions...? Not so much. Just a bunch of wharrgarbling about all possible solutions.


They're also allergic to the government model of "bring revenue in, spend revenue on services, stimulate certain sectors." Taxes are terrible. Bailouts are subjective. The military doesn't count as a welfare queen, and unions aggressively seeking better wages doesn't count as capitalism.

It's as if on any given issue there's two options (litigation or regulation, increased revenue or ACTUAL decreased spending, including military, etc) that are both viable, even though they are diametrically opposed and include a middle ground. Republicans will inevitably whine about any and all options, any of which will do fine especially with some moderation.

/Not to mention, unrelated, but gay people in France are now less Girly-Man than republicans
//cuz polite discussion aside, you let Bin Laden get away

Honestly I feel bad for Aahhhhnold. He's trying to do the right thing but the entire situation is farked and yes, he's right, his party is not helping things.

The recalcitrance of the Republican minority in California is farking legendary. They enjoy playing the poison pill every chance they get and they have no remorse because they know geographically they are farked for control of the house, so they legislate by funding batshiat crazy initiatives and stonewalling opposition.

The initiative system is a farking disaster and needs to go. Until it does this current "budget crisis" is just going to repeat itself ad-infinitum and frankly, I'm farking tired of it.

/I have mixed feelings about going back home next year...

Undiluted: Republicans are anti-everything

Non-sense. Republicans are pro-war, pro-big business, and pro-corporatism.... oh.. and pro-life.

Whatsleft: jjorsett: California is at or near the top in sales, income, corporate, and gasoline taxes. It's solidly in the middle in property taxes, and that's only because Proposition 13 put a limit on them. And yet the state has still managed to spend itself into bankruptcy and the Democrats scream that we must feed more of our money into the maw of government. If Arnold signs this, there's going to be a tax revolt and a storm of initiatives.

What does their tax rank have to do with anything? What spending should the state stop?

A top ranking in taxation while the state yet goes broke is prima facie evidence of mismanagement and waste. What spending should the state stop? As a starting point, the state overpays its employees in wages and benefits. We can start by privatizing those positions wherever possible or at least making the pubic sector compete with the private the way some municipalities have. If I had the power, I'd actually put the state into receivership and go through a formal bankruptcy in which all contracts are revisited.

jjorsett: Doem: jjorsett: Some of you people amaze me. The first question out of your mouths when a politician wants to raise your taxes should be, "What the hell have you done with the money we've already given you?" Did you ever wonder how the state managed to build a fabulous road system, public infrastructure, and schools that were the envy of the world back when taxes on everything were half what they are now?

Now is not the time for the JJ

Californian's voted for all of that. You may think we are crazy for doing so but we did over and over and over again. Now is not the time to start a protest over that.

we have minority party in our legislature who are disregarding the fact that California spends a lot money because the people wanted it that way. if they want to reverse that cool, let the people of california express that with their votes and with props. It is wrong for the repbulicans to use this financial crisis as leverage for their agenda (which is in the minority in the state)

The people in their wisdom also voted (as part of Proposition 13) for the two-thirds requirement for passage of tax increases. That requirement hasn't been satisfied, so the Democrats are attempting an end run around the law. Your argument is self-contradictory.

Sure, but any law can be abused. a minority party can always misuse laws like this to bring legislation to a stand still. The law also allows Senators to enact the filibuster to tank any legislation they dont like with the hopes that the opposition wont be able to muster the 60 votes. Sure thats the law but what if it were abused or used for politics at the detriment of the country? Law requires good faith to be effective and republicans have shown none of that during this crisis

me_the_farker: Gee if only there were a large group of second class citizens they could charge for getting a license to get married.

Poverty is a price I'm willing to pay so long as we perform GOD'SWILLWHARRGARBL

Now do the voice subby

"To zafe Collie-forneeyaa....."

sarcastrophe: Democracy only counts when it rules in favor of Democrats. Check the Prop 8 threads.

Whatever. Prop 8 should never have been put up to a vote, but nice try.

whidbey: Whatever. Prop 8 should never have been put up to a vote, but nice try.

I agree. Civil rights are not subject to mob rule. However, that is the law. Eventually some of you guys will figure out that Democratic ideology is flawed on a fundamental level... just like the Republicans.

Nemo's Brother: Doem: still the republics should realize that dems have a strong majority in both houses. Republicans are being totally inflexible and as a citizen living in California I say that this is totally unacceptable.

The Dems have had a strong majority forever and look where it has gotten them? Illegal aliens cost the state tens of millions a year. When will someone acknowledge this?

/facepalm

Fart_Machine: /facepalm

Out of curiosity, why? I'm a huge proponent of open immigration policy, but he's right. Why do you facepalm?

Doem: jjorsett: Doem: jjorsett: Some of you people amaze me. The first question out of your mouths when a politician wants to raise your taxes should be, "What the hell have you done with the money we've already given you?" Did you ever wonder how the state managed to build a fabulous road system, public infrastructure, and schools that were the envy of the world back when taxes on everything were half what they are now?

Now is not the time for the JJ

Californian's voted for all of that. You may think we are crazy for doing so but we did over and over and over again. Now is not the time to start a protest over that.

we have minority party in our legislature who are disregarding the fact that California spends a lot money because the people wanted it that way. if they want to reverse that cool, let the people of california express that with their votes and with props. It is wrong for the repbulicans to use this financial crisis as leverage for their agenda (which is in the minority in the state)

The people in their wisdom also voted (as part of Proposition 13) for the two-thirds requirement for passage of tax increases. That requirement hasn't been satisfied, so the Democrats are attempting an end run around the law. Your argument is self-contradictory.

Sure, but any law can be abused. a minority party can always misuse laws like this to bring legislation to a stand still. The law also allows Senators to enact the filibuster to tank any legislation they dont like with the hopes that the opposition wont be able to muster the 60 votes. Sure thats the law but what if it were abused or used for politics at the detriment of the country? Law requires good faith to be effective and republicans have shown none of that during this crisis

1. In the case of the Senate, it isn't a law, it's an internal rule which the majority could change at any time. They don't because they know that one day they'll be in the minority and want to use it themselves. I think there's also the sense that, as George Washington put it, the Senate is the saucer into which legislation is poured to cool it. The filibuster rule is part of that process.

2. If I understand your argument, you want to just disregard a law when it's "abused". Sorry, but that isn't how the system works, much as some people would like it to be. Change the law if it's not working out, but tossing it aside is a recipe for anarchy or tyranny.

TwistedFark: Honestly I feel bad for Aahhhhnold. He's trying to do the right thing but the entire situation is farked and yes, he's right, his party is not helping things.

The recalcitrance of the Republican minority in California is farking legendary. They enjoy playing the poison pill every chance they get and they have no remorse because they know geographically they are farked for control of the house, so they legislate by funding batshiat crazy initiatives and stonewalling opposition.

The initiative system is a farking disaster and needs to go. Until it does this current "budget crisis" is just going to repeat itself ad-infinitum and frankly, I'm farking tired of it.

/I have mixed feelings about going back home next year...

This. I have some hope that Prop 11 will break the redistricting deadlock that keeps some of these asshats in office (both sides).

sarcastrophe: Eventually some of you guys will figure out that Democratic ideology is flawed on a fundamental level... just like the Republicans.

Not really. There's good "democracy."

Every single social improvement in our colorful legacy was made because enough people made their voices heard loudly enough that their representatives and other higher-ups in govt got the message and caved in to their demands.

"Bad" democracy examples: Prohibition, Jim Crow Laws, putting gay marriage to a vote.

sarcastrophe: Fart_Machine: /facepalm

Out of curiosity, why? I'm a huge proponent of open immigration policy, but he's right. Why do you facepalm?

Do you seriously think the state democratic party is responsible for an issue that has been around in one form or another for half a century?

Not to mention that it's mainly a federal issue.

whidbey: Not really. There's good "democracy."

Every single social improvement in our colorful legacy was made because enough people made their voices heard loudly enough that their representatives and other higher-ups in govt got the message and caved in to their demands.

"Bad" democracy examples: Prohibition, Jim Crow Laws, putting gay marriage to a vote.

Other "bad" democracy examples: being able to vote tax increases for other people, being able to vote yourself tax decreases, being able to vote yourself more money from the public coffers...

what's your point?

sarcastrophe: Eventually some of you guys will figure out that Democratic ideology is flawed on a fundamental level... just like the Republicans.

It definitely is. Approaching anything from an ideological standpoint first and a practical one second is a recipe for failure, even when it's an ideology that is more in line with my own beliefs. It's really easy to get locked into the Us vs Them mentality.

That said, I do think the Democrats are at least in line with reality here. Something has to be done and a combination of spending cuts and tax increases should do something.

Fart_Machine: Do you seriously think the state democratic party is responsible for an issue that has been around in one form or another for half a century?

Not to mention that it's mainly a federal issue.

Yes. The state is providing services to non-citizens (of the state or the government). The immigration issue itself may be a federal problem, but the state continuing to provide services at public expense is a state problem.