The man set babies on fire.

Think about THAT whenever you spend a $20 dollar bill.

He also famously openly defied the US Supreme court. If any president in the future had chosen to follow his precedent, the republic would have collapsed.

I work on a Cherokee reservation, so I'm getting a kick out of these repliesforce-marched to Oklahoma.

He did get rid of the central bank though. Jackson was a mixed bag all things considered.

DamnYankees: He also famously openly defied the US Supreme court. If any president in the future had chosen to follow his precedent, the republic would have collapsed.

Defying the Supreme Court is still in vogue, it just got less bold and pronounced. Look at the recent Heller decision and DC's response to get an idea.

He was both

I grew up down the street from The Hermitage. Your comments are fodder to my amusement.

Jon Meacham and/or Newsweek was responsible for the dog on the skateboard?

Finally, they deliver the journalism the people want!

Are they mutually exclusive?

/It's that time of year, buy my Andrew Jackson book!!!!

Occam's Chainsaw: I work on a Cherokee reservation, so I'm getting a kick out of these repliesforce-marched to Oklahoma.

I can see your Trail of Tears from my house!

Silovik: Are they mutually exclusive?

/It's that time of year, buy my Andrew Jackson book!!!!

I KNEW you were Jon Meacham!

Tell me.. is Fareed Zakaria that intense all the time? I picture him looking at a pile of bagels and just STARING at them with superintensity until he decides between poppy seed and sesame. The weight of the world hangs in the balance

Andrew Jackson was a giant bag of suck. Bush is still worse.

Occam's Chainsaw: I work on a Cherokee reservation, so I'm getting a kick out of these repliesforce-marched to Oklahoma.

Sadly that made me laugh.

/How's the Black Jack?
//Jackson was both

He was a great American who served his country bravely. He was also, however, a genocidal racist. I feel badly for the tens of thousands of Native Americans he exterminated.

bobbette: Jon Meacham and/or Newsweek was responsible for the dog on the skateboard?

their fiercest competition is from time magazine's editorial masterpiece, roomba cat

Goodfella: He was a great American who served his country bravely. He was also, however, a genocidal racist. I feel badly for the tens of thousands of Native Americans he exterminated.

That is the very definition of cognitive dissonance.

Sabyen91: That is the very definition of cognitive dissonance.

only if you believe everyone is either all good or all bad.

log_jammin: Sabyen91: That is the very definition of cognitive dissonance.

only if you believe everyone is either all good or all bad.

How so? Being a genocidal racist is not exactly = to patriot.

Andrew Jackson was the asshole who destroyed the humble, constrained, republican ideal of the Presidency and turned it into the modern plebiscitary monstrosity where the President gets elected by promising to do all things for all people, and then promptly seeks the obscene, ever-growing amount of power to try to match the inhuman expectations of the almost demi-god-like office. Andrew Jackson was the first guy who thought the universe revolved around the Oval Office, and did much to spread that now commonplace sentiment. We're worse off for it.

log_jammin: Sabyen91: That is the very definition of cognitive dissonance.

only if you believe everyone is either all good or all bad.

Manifest Destiny was kind of a bullshiat excuse to kill for empire.

Churchill2004: Andrew Jackson was the asshole who destroyed the humble, constrained, republican ideal of the Presidency and turned it into the modern plebiscitary monstrosity where the President gets elected by promising to do all things for all people, and then promptly seeks the obscene, ever-growing amount of power to try to match the inhuman expectations of the almost demi-god-like office. Andrew Jackson was the first guy who thought the universe revolved around the Oval Office, and did much to spread that now commonplace sentiment. We're worse off for it.

He was a cock, true.

Sabyen91: How so? Being a genocidal racist is not exactly = to patriot.

he didn't say "he was a great American who served his country bravely because he was a genocidal racist. but genocidal racism is still bad."

I'm sure there was a racist prick or two at sometime in history who took a bullet or fell onto a grenade to save someone else.

Sabyen91: Manifest Destiny was kind of a bullshiat excuse to kill for empire.

I'm not making excuses for Manifest Destiny.

I'm just saying that people want to view things in black and white and things rarely are so simple.

log_jammin: Sabyen91: How so? Being a genocidal racist is not exactly = to patriot.

he didn't say "he was a great American who served his country bravely because he was a genocidal racist. but genocidal racism is still bad."

I'm sure there was a racist prick or two at sometime in history who took a bullet or fell onto a grenade to save someone else.

Sabyen91: Manifest Destiny was kind of a bullshiat excuse to kill for empire.

I'm not making excuses for Manifest Destiny.

I'm just saying that people want to view things in black and white and things rarely are so simple.

That time was full of black and white thinking (and very Christian). Manifest Destiny was all about the whites being superior and blessed by god. It was a bullshiat reason to kill people and take their land.

Sabyen91: That time was full of black and white thinking (and very Christian). Manifest Destiny was all about the whites being superior and blessed by god. It was a bullshiat reason to kill people and take their land.

let me try again.


"I'm not making excuses for Manifest Destiny."

log_jammin: Sabyen91: That time was full of black and white thinking (and very Christian). Manifest Destiny was all about the whites being superior and blessed by god. It was a bullshiat reason to kill people and take their land.

let me try again.


"I'm not making excuses for Manifest Destiny."

So you are saying Andrew Jackson was an asshole?

log_jammin: Sabyen91: That time was full of black and white thinking (and very Christian). Manifest Destiny was all about the whites being superior and blessed by god. It was a bullshiat reason to kill people and take their land.

let me try again.


"I'm not making excuses for Manifest Destiny."

You said not everybody is good or evil. Andrew Jackson had nothing good coming out of his presidency. He is like Bush.

Sabyen91: So you are saying Andrew Jackson was an asshole?

yes he was an asshole.

he was a "Great leader (and great American) or and an angry hick (plus he was an asshole)"

Sabyen91: You said not everybody is good or evil.

no. I said no one is ALL good or ALL evil. and that someone can be a racist prick and still be a "great leader/american".

log_jammin: Sabyen91: So you are saying Andrew Jackson was an asshole?

yes he was an asshole.

he was a "Great leader (and great American) or and an angry hick (plus he was an asshole)"

He was not a great leader.

Sabyen91: You said not everybody is good or evil. Andrew Jackson had nothing good coming out of his presidency. He is like Bush.

He had a few good policies, but only at random when his new populism happened to coincide with classical republican liberalism. A broken clock is right twice a day kind of thing.

Sabyen91: He was not a great leader.

a great president is debatable. But a great leader isn't.

log_jammin: Sabyen91: He was not a great leader.

a great president is debatable. But a great leader isn't.

Well, he was certainly a popular leader as in he convinced a bunch of people to follow him. Rather that's really a good thing is debatable.

log_jammin: Sabyen91: He was not a great leader.

a great president is debatable. But a great leader isn't.

What made him a great leader? Hint: If it was prejudice...it kinda makes him a fraud.

Churchill2004: Rather that's really a good thing is debatable.

being a popular leader isn't a bad thing in and of itself.


and "convincing a bunch of people to follow you" is the very definition of leadership.

Churchill2004: Sabyen91: You said not everybody is good or evil. Andrew Jackson had nothing good coming out of his presidency. He is like Bush.

He had a few good policies, but only at random when his new populism happened to coincide with classical republican liberalism. A broken clock is right twice a day kind of thing.

Wilson was awesome too in certain ways but overall he was nothing but a hawk with a lot of failure in his resume. Wilson hurt liberals for many years. But he was good sometimes.

Sabyen91: What made him a great leader? Hint: If it was prejudice

huh? why would prejudice make someone a great leader?

log_jammin: Churchill2004: Rather that's really a good thing is debatable.

being a popular leader isn't a bad thing in and of itself.


and "convincing a bunch of people to follow you" is the very definition of leadership.

When those people want to kill people I don't think "leadership" is the word that comes to mind. White people believed that they were better than the savages. And felt killing them was an appropriate thing to do.

log_jammin: Churchill2004: Rather that's really a good thing is debatable.

being a popular leader isn't a bad thing in and of itself.


and "convincing a bunch of people to follow you" is the very definition of leadership.

It's debatable whether having leadership of that sort in a position like the Presidency is a good thing. By that definition, every mass murderer in history was a great leader. And Andrew Jackson was a mass murderer.

/yeah, I went there
//legit argument in this case

Did anyone link to that Cracked article yet?

log_jammin: Sabyen91: What made him a great leader? Hint: If it was prejudice

huh? why would prejudice make someone a great leader?

All the white folk believed in killing brown people. Jackson thought that was a dandy idea. That DOESN'T make him a good leader.

Churchill2004: log_jammin: Churchill2004: Rather that's really a good thing is debatable.

being a popular leader isn't a bad thing in and of itself.


and "convincing a bunch of people to follow you" is the very definition of leadership.

It's debatable whether having leadership of that sort in a position like the Presidency is a good thing. By that definition, every mass murderer in history was a great leader. And Andrew Jackson was a mass murderer.

/yeah, I went there
//legit argument in this case

Yeah, he was a genocidal motherfarker.

Sabyen91: When those people want to kill people I don't think "leadership" is the word that comes to mind.

what word does come to mind? Because you just described the "leader" of every army in history.

Sabyen91: White people believed that they were better than the savages. And felt killing them was an appropriate thing to do.

yes I know. and?

Churchill2004: It's debatable whether having leadership of that sort in a position like the Presidency is a good thing.

depends. A great leader with good policies is fine. Great leadership without them isn't.

Churchill2004: By that definition, every mass murderer in history was a great leader.

I'd say that Genghis Khan was a great leader. Stalin not so much.

In todays world was he a racist bastard? yes.

You have to look at the situation from back then, you think of a better solution when you look at the facts.

Sabyen91: All the white folk believed in killing brown people. Jackson thought that was a dandy idea. That DOESN'T make him a good leader.

yes.....I know that.

I never ever said killing brown people makes someone a good leader. I said someone can be a good leader in spite of wanting to kill brown people.

log_jammin: Sabyen91: All the white folk believed in killing brown people. Jackson thought that was a dandy idea. That DOESN'T make him a good leader.

yes.....I know that.

I never ever said killing brown people makes someone a good leader. I said someone can be a good leader in spite of wanting to kill brown people.

What made Jackson a good leader? The Manifest Destiny and the love for killing brown people were kinda cool at the time. And he rode it for all it was worth. What made him a good president?

ITT: Quibblefest 2008.

Lets put this to rest, shall we? Jackson was an effective leader and a horrible person. Much like Ghengis Khan.

/Yeah, like that's gonna stop you guys.

Sabyen91: What made Jackson a good leader?

his ability to convince a lot of people to follow him.

Sabyen91: The Manifest Destiny and the love for killing brown people were kinda cool at the time. And he rode it for all it was worth.

see....what you're doing is hearing me say "he was a great/good leader" then you think "but! he was racist!" then you think "log_jammin thinks only racists make good leaders!"

Sabyen91: What made him a good president?

I don't think he was a good president. His failures far outweighed his successes.

Occam's Chainsaw: Lets put this to rest, shall we? Jackson was an effective leader and a horrible person. Much like Ghengis Khan.

that's pretty much what I've been saying.

and I like to Quibble damn it!

log_jammin: Sabyen91: What made Jackson a good leader?

his ability to convince a lot of people to follow him.

Sabyen91: The Manifest Destiny and the love for killing brown people were kinda cool at the time. And he rode it for all it was worth.

see....what you're doing is hearing me say "he was a great/good leader" then you think "but! he was racist!" then you think "log_jammin thinks only racists make good leaders!"

Sabyen91: What made him a good president?

I don't think he was a good president. His failures far outweighed his successes.

Ok, I get you. Still, I think you STILL give him too much credit. He didn't have to convince people to kill Indians. And he was not the guy who brought up the idea of Manifest Destiny.

log_jammin: depends. A great leader with good policies is fine. Great leadership without them isn't.

Then there's nothing "great" about it. It's just evil writ large.

log_jammin: I'd say that Genghis Khan was a great leader. Stalin not so much.

The only difference is 700 years.

Sabyen91: Still, I think you STILL give him too much credit. He didn't have to convince people to kill Indians.

and that's why I never said he was a good/great person.

he's on my short list of historical figures I'd probably want to punch within five minutes of meeting them.