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(BBC) Interesting You have a ceasefire in place. Do you; A) honour your side of the bargain; B) fire rockets at your enemy anyway; or C) fire rockets, blame enemy for blockading you and call off truce so you can fire more rockets?   (news.bbc.co.uk) divider line 217
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z_gringo [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 05:46:01 AM  
Yes.

 
Ed Finnerty 2008-12-19 08:27:58 AM  
D) Fire rockets at EVERYTHING!

www.dtdstudios.com

 
clancifer [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 08:35:17 AM  
Bring out the idiots that view Israel as the problem.

 
Pocket Ninja [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 08:44:17 AM  
clancifer: Bring out the idiots that view Israel as the problem.

Are they related to the idiots who think that Israel is never at fault?

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 09:00:34 AM  
What this thread will probably miss.

(Nov 15, 2008) Chronic malnutrition in Gaza blamed on Israel

Donald Macintyre reveals the contents of an explosive report by the Red Cross on a humanitarian tragedy

(Nov 25, 2008) Gaza Strip residents are going back to the days of kerosene stoves and firewood-gathering as Israel's blockade of foreign aid supplies of fuel and food bites deeper. Bakeries in the territory controlled by Islamist Hamas are now using low-quality grain or animal feed to produce bread.

(Dec 14, 2008) Gaza families eat grass as Israel locks border

(Dec 2008) Palestinians Prefer Abbas over Haniyeh


(May 2008) Israelis Prefer Military Action Against Hamas

(May 2008) Palestinians Prefer Fatah Over Hamas

 
SpaceyCat [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 09:02:26 AM  
clancifer: Bring out the idiots that view Israel as the problem.

Ummmm... Israel is part of the problem. There are two sides to every conflict. They are not innocent victims of this fiasco that was created. They have played an active roll, just as the Palestinians have.

 
Ed Finnerty 2008-12-19 09:03:33 AM  
Pocket Ninja: clancifer: Bring out the idiots that view Israel as the problem.

Are they related to the idiots who think that Israel is never at fault?


dtdstudios.com

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 09:10:13 AM  
Party Boy: animal feed to produce bread.
...
Gaza families eat grass as Israel locks border


also
UN official and US prof., Dr. Richard Falk, reports on desperate conditions from the Gaza blockade - deported by Israel.

Plus, number of Fark threads on the recent Hebron Settler riots? Zero.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 09:36:13 AM  
img0.fark.net "Two-thirds of Palestinians support a plan that offers Israel full recognition by Arab countries in return for withdrawing from occupied lands, and nearly two-thirds of Israelis oppose it" (link to tfa)

surprise. red.

 
MasterThief [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 09:43:32 AM  
img389.imageshack.us

STOP BREAKING THE LAW CEASEFIRE, ASSHOLES!

 
overlord_mike [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 10:41:37 AM  
israel: stop the rocket atacks and we'll open the border

hamas: open the border and then we'll stop the atacks

me: hamas, stop the damn rocket atacks. isreal let food and needed supplies throught

both: fark you, we do what we want


why don't the palistinians give up gaza for more teritory in the west bank?

 
Marcus Aurelius [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 10:46:23 AM  
This crap started 3,000 years ago and isn't going away any time soon. They're all assholes. So is anyone that picks one side over the other in this clusterfark.

That said, it looks to me like the Israelis are starving the Palestinians. I'm sure in another thousand years the tables will have turned at least once or twice.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 10:54:05 AM  
overlord_mike: why don't the palistinians give up gaza for more teritory in the west bank?

If you pull maps of "greater Israel" maps from king davids time, Gaza isnt (for the most part on who you talk to) part of that. The West Bank is. In fact, on the "Gaza pullout" -
Sharon Aide Says Goal of Gaza Plan Is to Halt Road Map (Salon Oct 2004)
The aide, Dov Weisglass -- until recently Sharon's chief of staff, his personal attorney and still one of his closest advisers -- said the primary goals of the proposal to withdraw the 8,100 Jewish settlers from Gaza were to strengthen Israel's hold on its more numerous settlements in the West Bank and to freeze the political process as a way to indefinitely block the creation of a Palestinian state.


Israeli Causes Uproar Over Status of Road Map (NYT Oct 2004) (cant direct link it)
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/06/international/middleeast/06CND-MIDE.html

Israel's proposed withdrawal from the Gaza Strip is intended to put the issue of Palestinian statehood on indefinite hold, a close aide to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon said in an interview that was published today and immediately stirred controversy.
...snip...
Mr. Sharon has himself dropped many hints that he is less than enthusiastic about the road map, which would require many concessions from Israel. In a recent newspaper interview, Mr. Sharon said Israel was not following the peace plan, which stalled amid ongoing violence shortly after it was launched in June of 2003.
Still, Mr. Weisglass' published remarks were unusually blunt. He described the planned withdrawal of Israeli settlers from Gaza and a small part of the West Bank as a substitute for the road map, not a means of reviving the moribund peace process, as the Bush administration has stated.
"The significance of our disengagement plan is the freezing of the peace process," Mr. Weisglass was quoted as saying in Haaretz, a liberal daily often critical of Mr. Sharon's government. "It supplies the formaldehyde necessary so there is no political process with Palestinians."
"When you freeze the process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state," Mr. Weisglass added. "Effectively, this whole package called a Palestinian state, with all it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda."
In the interview, Mr. Weisglass also said that the Israeli position had the "authority and permission" of the White House and Congress.
...snip...

In the interview, Mr. Weisglass said that 190,000 of the 240,000 Israeli settlers would not be moved from their current homes.

Also
Israel's identity crisis (Salon May 2005)www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/485989.html
Analysis / The adviser that roared
Ha'aretz 10/8/2004
Something nasty happened to Dov Weisglass when he emerged from the position of whisperer into Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's ear to public exposure. The statements he made in an interview to Haaretz correspondent Ari Shavit, to the effect that the disengagement plan is intended to freeze the political process and postpone the Palestinian state "indefinitely," triggered off stormy political and international reactions.

The big freeze

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:04:43 AM  
If I'm Palestinian, here's the strategy I would employ:

Somehow convince Hamas/Islamic Jihad to publicly renounce violence and the intent to "push Israel into the sea". Say that the Palestinian people will take a public path to justice in the model of Mohatma Ghandi and great US civil rights leaders through civil disobedience. That way, if Israel intervenes and starts killing people, then they totally lose their justifications of preventing terrorist attacks. Until Hamas/Islamic Jihad make such a renouncement, Israel can always (relatively legitimately) point to the terror groups as justification for their military measures.

Unfortunately this will never happen because fundamentalist Islamic groups never, never truly want peace. Their ideology just does not support it.

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:05:28 AM  
Party Boy: Who, in your opinion, deserves more blame for the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict -- the Israel government or the militant Islamic groups Hamas/Islamic Jihad and Fatah?

 
Crosshair [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:10:58 AM  
Pocket Ninja: Are they related to the idiots who think that Israel is never at fault?

No, Israel is hardly blameless. They are in a bad situation no matter what. That being said, they are at least trying. Hamas, not so much.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:23:12 AM  
KaponoFor3: Party Boy: Who, in your opinion, deserves more blame for the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict -- the Israel government or the militant Islamic groups Hamas/Islamic Jihad and Fatah?

I think this is a poor question. As an American, I'm way more concerned with this. Last year, there was a poll on Muslims in various Middle Eastern countries. On the goals of Al quaeda, guess which one was the top one they agreed with?
PDF poll
Muslim Public Opinion on
US Policy, Attacks on Civilians
and al Qaeda


(p 17)
To push the US to stop favoring Israel in its conflict with the Palestinians
76% total
---

Now, on the U.S. led "roadmap" for peace plan, there was a call for a cessation of settlement building. This is hard to do when a "large part of the money" going to the settlers is coming from, right here, in America. Tax free donations available, too.

Unlike what Marcus Aurelius states, this isn't 3,000 years old, its origins are in the late 1800's and its about land/polulation displacement. Well, when the US has a foreign policy to stop the settlements, and they continue to increase, its a problem for us, here in the US. This is how the roadmap went down

/sec

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:26:28 AM  
Party Boy: I think this is a poor question

Poor question or not, do you have an answer? I get the impression from your posts that you truly sympathize more with the Palestinian side than the Israeli side. I'll happily admit that I view the Palestinian side as being more at fault than the Israeli side, though I do not abdicate Israel from a level of partial responsibility for the situation.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:32:52 AM  

Roadmap derailed


An Uncertain Road Map (WaPo June 2002)
A Plan Without a Map (NYT June 2002)
• This one has the advantage at least of seeming to better reflect the president's own world view. He placed most of the onus on the Palestinians: The clear message was they shouldn't expect anything -- not a state, not a provisional state, not an Israeli withdrawal -- until they get rid of Yasser Arafat as their leader and clean up their collective act.
• Such a one-sided approach might be appropriate if Israel's government were committed to the two-state vision that Mr. Bush claimed as his own yesterday. After all, the president is right that Mr. Arafat has shown a willingness to use terrorism -- the unacceptable murder of innocent civilians -- to further political goals, and that such terror should not be rewarded. But Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has made clear that he sees a two-state solution many years distant at best. His government has shown no inclination to modify the settlement policy that makes an ultimate agreement ever more difficult.


------------
Arafat Wants No. 2 Man In the P.L.O. As the Premier (NYT March 2003)

----↓↓↓↓-----




A Performance-Based Roadmap to a Permanent Two-State Solution to the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict (April 2003 US Dept of State)

-----
U.S. Groups Seek To Cast Peace 'Map' As a Threat (Forward May 2003)

Bush's Maneuvers Bewilder Jerusalem and Activists (Forward June 2003

From determination to wimpiness (Haaretz)

Israel Seals Off Gaza After Brief Opening Meant to Ease Plight of Palestinian Workers (NYT May 2003)

Sharon's Refusal To Accept Plan Vexes Powell Trip; After Visit, Israel Seals Gaza Strip (WaPo May 2003 pg. A.12)
Abstract (Summary)

Secretary of State Colin L. Powell clashed with his Egyptian counterpart today over Israel's refusal to endorse a new U.S.- backed peace plan. Powell said it made "no difference" whether Israel declared that it accepted the document, but Egypt's foreign minister, Ahmed Maher, said embracing it was important, remarking that " 'accept' is not a dirty word."

Further complicating the picture during Powell's visit for talks with Israeli and Palestinian leaders, the Israeli military imposed the tightest crackdown on travel between Israel and the Gaza Strip since the current Palestinian uprising began in September 2000, closing Gaza's borders to everyone except diplomats and aid workers. Maher indicated the tightened closure undercut earlier gestures announced by Israel to ease Palestinian suffering that Powell had hailed as "very promising."

Powell met Sunday with the new Palestinian Authority prime minister, Mahmoud Abbas, and [Ariel Sharon] and Abbas have agreed to their first meeting Friday. But Powell refused to meet with the Authority's president and longtime Palestinian leader, Yasser Arafat. Maher noted that Arafat selected Abbas and said Egypt would continue to meet with him. "We continue to recognize him as the leader of the Palestinian people," he said.

B

No Discussion Of Settlements, Diplomats Say (Forward (May 2003)

American-Israeli Relations Strained Following Attack (Forward June 2003)

Bush Under Fire in Congress for Criticizing Israel (NYT June 2003)

Bush's Shift on Israel Was Swift (WaPo June 2003)

Israel-US rift emerges over security fence issue (JPost June 2003)

PA (Palestinian Authority) paper makes racist, sexist remarks about Condoleeza Rice (JPost June 2003)

Sharon rejects Bush's call to take down 'security' fence (Independent July 2003)
• Mr Sharon met Mr Bush just four days after the President - with Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian Prime Minister standing beside him - called the fence (more properly a wall) a "problem" that did not help the road-map peace plan being pushed by the United States and other big powers for an overall Middle East settlement by the end of 2005.

Israel to Continue Building Security Fence Criticized by Bush (NYT July 2003)

U.S. May Reduce Aid Plan to Get Israel to Halt Barrier (NYT Aug 2003)

Bush Eases Pressure on Both Sides Over Peace Plan (Forward Aug 2003)
• Seeking to prevent the unraveling of its so-called "road map" to Israeli-Palestinian peace, the Bush administration is scaling back its demands on each side in hopes of making it easier for each of them to comply. The apparent aim is to ease domestic political pressures on the leaders, as well as to defuse charges from each side that the other side is failing to comply.

U.S. Cutting Loan Guarantees To Oppose Israeli Settlements (NYT Sept 2003)
• The action was almost totally symbolic. It came on the same day that Israel sold $1.6 billion of bonds on Wall Street, all backed by a guarantee of repayment by the United States government under legislation passed last spring that provides Israel with up to $3 billion in loan guarantees annually for three years.
It is the first such move the administration has taken against Israel.

U.S. confirms fence prompted loan cuts (Haaretz 11/27/031)
• it was agreed that the United States will trim $289.5 million from the $3 billion in guarantees granted to Israel this year. Washington has granted Israel a total of $9 billion in guarantees over three years.
"The fact is they [the United States] aren't putting any political pressure on us to do anything on the substantive issues of the political process," Deputy Prime Minister Ehud Olmert told Army Radio yesterday.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:37:27 AM  
KaponoFor3: Poor question or not, do you have an answer? I get the impression from your posts that you truly sympathize more with the Palestinian side than the Israeli side. I'll happily admit that I view the Palestinian side as being more at fault than the Israeli side, though I do not abdicate Israel from a level of partial responsibility for the situation.

Frankly, your impression is farked up. My side is the American side. I find it unfortunate that you aren't on that side.

Here's what George Bush I went against when he
Christian Science Monitor Aug 12, 1992
(Abstract)
The loan-guarantee request was first tendered by Israel 18 months ago. Despite heavy pressure from pro-Israeli lawmakers and lobby groups to go along, Mr. [Bush] insisted on linking the guarantees to a halt in construction of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip. Israel was unhappy, but administration officials believed that the unregulated expansion of settlements encouraged by the Likud government of Yitzhak Shamir was a major obstacle to progress in Middle East peace talks.

Bush and [Yitzhak Rabin] met reporters Aug. 11 to discuss their first meeting since Rabin was elected prime minister last June. A former ambassador to Washington during the Nixon administration, Rabin is a popular and well-known figure in the US. The Bush administration has welcomed the new prime minister's more moderate views on Middle East peacemaking.

In his meeting with Bush, Rabin also reaffirmed his commitment to putting Middle East peace talks on a fast track. Unlike Shamir, Rabin is eager to coordinate his negotiating strategy with the US, which Rabin will count on to help pressure the Arab parties to the talks - Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and the Palestinians.

============

Christian Science Monitor Jan 13, 1992
When Israel formally requested the loan guarantee last September, Israeli officials attempted to go over President [Bush]'s head to win passage in Congress. Mr. Bush responded by calling himself "one lonely little guy" standing up to "a thousand lobbyists working the other side of the question." Quiet compromise sought

The $10 billion sought by Israel is part of an estimated $40 billion needed to help the Jewish state absorb up to 1 million Soviet immigrants over the next five years. Under the arrangement, the US would not be giving or lending money directly to Israel. Instead the US would guarantee commercial loans, enabling Israel to obtain more favorable credit terms.

Israel's reputation among American voters has ebbed in recent months. A majority of Americans now support the idea of placing conditions on future aid to Israel, including loan guarantees. The poll data may be one reason that the pro-Israeli lobby is keeping a lower-than-usual profile. Another may be that many American Jews are opposed to the [Yitzhak Shamir] government's settlements policy.
------

The Washington Post Company Sep 28, 1992
High-profile staff members from various Washington lobbying firms are actively campaigning for Democratic nominee Bill Clinton. Among them: David Ifshin, adviser to Clinton on U.S.-Israeli relations and general counsel to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), the leading pro-Jewish lobby, and Samuel Berger, a foreign affairs adviser to the Clinton campaign and a trade issues lobbyist. Charles Dolan, a senior vice president of Cassidy Associates, a D.C.-based lobby group, is also a Clinton adviser.

Washington Post Company Sep 10, 1992
The other day, for instance, Bush took back his characterization of himself as a president being victimized by the so-called Jewish lobby. During last year's dispute over loan guarantees to Israel, Bush said he was "one lonely little guy" up against "1,000 lobbyists" - actually, mostly ordinary citizens in Washington for the day. Having won that fight and needing the Jewish vote in November, Bush "expressed his regret" to the B'nai B'rith convention here. Trailing in the polls, Bush now knows what "lonely" really is.
Washington Post Company Aug 17, 1992

Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin has bluntly criticized past actions of the American-Israel Public Affairs Committee, the powerful pro-Israel congressional lobby, saying it had needlessly inflamed U.S.-Israeli relations, informed sources said today.

The sources said [Yitzhak Rabin] complained in a private meeting in Washington last week that AIPAC had steered Israel wrongly toward a confrontation with the Bush administration over U.S.-backed loan guarantees. Rabin declared that he wanted to avoid such confrontations, the sources said.

Rabin's comments came at the end of a U.S. visit in which he secured a commitment from President Bush to seek the $10 billion in loan guarantees from Congress. Bush had refused to grant the loan guarantees to former prime minister Yitzhak Shamir because of continued Jewish settlement in Israeli-occupied Arab territories. The deadlock was broken after Rabin defeated Shamir in elections June 23 and pledged to curb settlement construction without halting it entirely.

Rabin leveled his criticism in a private meeting at the Madison Hotel in Washington with Tom Dine, executive director of AIPAC, David Steiner, the group's president, and three former presidents of the congressional lobbying group: Ed Levy, Abe Pollin and Mayer Mitchell. Five Israeli officials were present.

Rabin's remarks were considered highly unusual, given the traditional clout that AIPAC has wielded in Congress on behalf of Israel.

Officials close to Rabin said he believes that American Jewish organizations should not play a central role in the diplomacy between the United States and Israel. Rabin made this point to the AIPAC leaders at the outset of what became a long session on future legislative strategy, sources said.

Rabin also believes that such contacts should be with the executive branch, regardless of who is in the White House, and that Congress should play a supporting role but not be used as a lever against the administration, officials said. AIPAC had spearheaded an effort by the American Jewish community to win the loan guarantees from Congress despite objections from the administration - an ultimately futile campaign that was the crux of Rabin's complaint, officials said.

Some Labor Party figures here say also that AIPAC became too closely associated with Shamir's Likud Party. Since Rabin defeated Shamir, there has been intense behind-the-scenes jockeying in American Jewish organizations between those who were close to Likud and those who felt excluded by Shamir's right-wing government.

Asked for comment about the Rabin meeting, Dine, the AIPAC executive director, said in a statement that Rabin "expressed unhappiness with the political tensions that occurred last year among the Jewish community, Congress and the administration over the loan gurantees." But, he added, "most of the meeting was devoted to constructive discussion" of legislative strategy, and Rabin "clearly hopes to have strong support from the Congress as well as the administration."
More Here

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:42:10 AM  
Party Boy: Frankly, your impression is farked up. My side is the American side. I find it unfortunate that you aren't on that side.

Come on now, quit dancing around it man. Characterizing it as the "American side" is just a smokescreen by you. I've never, ever seen you say anything positive about Israel or Israel's role in the conflict in any Israel thread over the years.

I was mature enough to admit that I have a built-in bias against fundamentalist Islam. Are you mature enough to admit that you have a built-in bias against Israel (note that I did not say "the jews" or anything like that)? I mean, I'm not really saying anything that isn't clearly obvious by the character of your posts/link dumps, I just want to know if you would be willing to admit it.

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:43:12 AM  
Party Boy: Frankly, your impression is farked up. My side is the American side. I find it unfortunate that you aren't on that side.

I suppose, after reading this again, you are making your bias known. I said that I am generally pro-Israel and anti-Hamas/Islamic Jihad. You say that it's unfortunate I'm not on the "American side", which clearly implies that you think the pro-Israel and anti-Hamas/Islamic Jihad side is NOT the "American side".

Will you be objective enough to admit your bias?

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:45:03 AM  
KaponoFor3: I get the impression from your posts

Here's more from the American side.

This can go on for decades

from

(1990) Israel Retracts Pledge to U.S On East Jerusalem Housing

to

Rice: E1 building 'contravenes US policy'


• Among the new sites to be settled is the so-called E1 area between the city of Maaleh Adumim and Jerusalem, which the Israeli government has expressed its intention of retaining in any future arrangement.


to

(2005) Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice told the Senate Foreign Relations committee Wednesday that Israeli building in the E1 corridor between Jerusalem and Ma'aleh Adumim was an act "that would contravene American policy."

"We have told the Israelis in no uncertain terms that [settlement in the E1 area] would contravene American policy," Rice added.

(2005) Sharon vows he will continue construction in West Bank settlements. There will be no second disengagement



(2006)
"The policy is the same. There should not be expansion of the settlements and outposts should be removed," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said at a briefing.
However, McCormack said the United States will raise the issue with Israel in private.
"This is an issue that we do talk to the Israeli government about. Often times those discussions are done quietly and they are done privately -- and you may not hear about them -- but we do talk about the issue," he said.
According to media reports, Israel plans to build 690 new homes in two Jewish settlements in the West Bank despite an obligation under the US-backed Middle East "roadmap" peace plan to halt such construction.
(2006) The Israeli authorities on Monday invited tenders for building nearly 700 new housing units in the occupied West Bank, in the largest settlement expansion push for the territory this year. The Housing Ministry published advertisements in the press inviting the bids, with 348 houses to be constructed in Maale Adumim.

(2006) Peres: Settlement construction can't be prevented



(2007)
Construction is continuing in dozens of Jewish settlements in the West Bank despite Israel's pledge to freeze their expansion

(Feb 2008) Israeli authorities have appointed five companies to expand a Jewish settlement in occupied east Jerusalem, work which could undermine peace talks with the Palestinians, officials said on Friday.

"This will make it harder to stop the planned building in this controversial district and could jeopardize peace talks with the Palestinians," the newspaper said.

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has said the move to extend the settlement "doesn't help to build confidence" at a time of renewed peace negotiations between the Israelis and Palestinians.

(June 2008)
The Israeli government is facing criticism from the White House and the United Nations for its plans to expand Jewish settlements in Jerusalem.

The government announced plans Sunday to build more than 800 homes in East Jerusalem, a move that could hinder international efforts to secure a peace deal by the end of the year.

"The government of Israel's continued construction in settlements in the occupied Palestinian territory is contrary to international law and to its commitments under the Road Map and the Annapolis process," it said.

The "road map" for peace is a plan aimed to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by calling for an independent Palestinian state co-existing with Israel.

The Annapolis process refers to a November conference in Annapolis, Maryland, where the two sides agreed on an outline for the two-state solution.

(2008)
U.S. President George W. Bush hopes to get the sides to complete a deal by the end of the year but progress depends on Palestinian action to stop attacks on Israelis and on an Israeli settlement freeze.

Israeli newspaper Haaretz reported Friday that the government had issued permits for construction of 307 Jewish homes in the contentious east Jerusalem neighborhood, of Har Homa, drawing fresh fire from one of the Palestinians' top peace negotiators.

A sign in English and Hebrew on one of the homes read: "This caravan was built in part through a grant from One Israel Fund." The organization's Web site says it is a New-York based charitable group helping Israeli settlers who were evacuated from Gaza.

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:48:18 AM  
Party Boy: Here's more from the American side.

I have a great photo for you:

static.twoday.net

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:49:47 AM  
KaponoFor3: Come on now, quit dancing around it man.

Says the guy trying to throw out red herrings.

I'm telling you now. I am on the side of the United States. You, apparently, think this is some sort of false duality where there are only palestinian and israeli sides.

Guess what? I have never seen a palestinian side here on fark. I do see Israelis on here. I see Europeans and Americans.

Keep throwing out the red herrings.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:51:38 AM  
KaponoFor3: I have a great photo for you:

I'm not going to be silenced despite insults or red herrings.

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 11:56:49 AM  
Party Boy: I'm not going to be silenced despite insults or red herrings

I'm not insulting you, I'm saying you are being disingenuous.

I'll rephrase my question: Who is more to blame for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict -- the Israeli government or the Palestinian militant groups like Hamas (duly elected representatives of the Palestinian people) and Islamic Jihad?

Note: I am *NOT* asking you to take sides. If you think they are both equally responsible, then you should be willing to say so. If you think one sides bears more blame/responsibility, then you should be willing to say so.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:06:35 PM  
KaponoFor3: I'm saying you are being disingenuous.

I'm saying you are boiling down a continum of positions into pro-Israeli and pro palestinian as if the the span of geopolitics could be parsed into a false duality.
img225.imageshack.us

Talking to you, I'm reminded when Barack Obama said "Being Pro-Israel Doesn't Mean Being Pro-Likud"
I think there is a strain within the pro-Israel community that says unless you adopt a unwavering pro-Likud approach to Israel that you're anti-Israel and that can't be the measure of our friendship with Israel. If we cannot have a honest dialogue about how do we achieve these goals, then we're not going to make progress. And frankly some of the commentary that I've seen which suggests guilt by association or the notion that unless we are never ever going to ask any difficult questions about how we move peace forward or secure Israel that is non military or non belligerent or doesn't talk about just crushing the opposition that that somehow is being soft or anti-Israel, I think we're going to have problems moving forward. And that I think is something we have to have an honest dialogue about.


I'm reminded of you here. If you think you can boil this topic down into two sides, you are sorely mistaken.

 
DrillSergeantPoopyPants 2008-12-19 12:09:03 PM  
The problem:

sioebelgie.files.wordpress.com

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:09:18 PM  
KaponoFor3: If you think one sides bears more blame/responsibility

How do you measure that? And on what metric? Is there an objective blame scale?

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:10:12 PM  
Party Boy: I'm saying you are boiling down a continum of positions into pro-Israeli and pro palestinian as if the the span of geopolitics could be parsed into a false duality

It's not a false duality -- you have three options, I'm curious which one you would agree with the most?

A) Both sides are equally responsible for the suffering of the Palestinian people.
B) Hamas/Islamic Jihad are more responsible than the Israeli government for the suffering of the Palestinian people.
C) The Israeli government is more responsible than Hamas/Islamic Jihad for the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Take your pick. Your continued dancing around the question shows that you are the worst of advocates in that you are hiding your bias while attempting to portray yourself as representing the "American" side.

Will you agree that most of the links you post on Israel threads tend to show why Israel is the side preventing a sustainable peace solution?

Just be honest. I was. Can you be?

 
dhudd 2008-12-19 12:10:36 PM  
Virtually every Jewish person I know HATES Likud almost as much as they hate Hamas (note: almost)

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:12:05 PM  
Party Boy: How do you measure that? And on what metric? Is there an objective blame scale

No, it's totally subjective. I think that Hamas/Islamic Jihad is subjectively more to blame for the situation than the Israeli government.

What do you subjectively believe?

 
Baby Diego [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:13:01 PM  
Headline made me think of the "End of the World" Flash animation from forever ago.

"Sheet guise, zee mee-siles, zey are coming, fire our sheet!"

 
UnFark 2008-12-19 12:13:11 PM  
The PoliSci 101 DEFINITION of a state is an entity that holds a monopoly on violence over an area. No Palestinian state=no monopoly on violence. You can't negotiate with 1,000,000 people. Until there is a government, you can't have an effective cease-fire, because one idiot, or in this case, many idiots, can blow it all to hell.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:13:18 PM  
KaponoFor3: Your continued dancing around the question

LOL.

Hey. How do you measure suffering? Is that in meters? How do you answer these questions? Let me know when you have a serious question that i can answer with some sort of evidence.

Good grief.

At least try to deal with the material presented.

 
Mnemia 2008-12-19 12:13:24 PM  
KaponoFor3: I'll rephrase my question: Who is more to blame for the Israeli/Palestinian conflict -- the Israeli government or the Palestinian militant groups like Hamas (duly elected representatives of the Palestinian people) and Islamic Jihad?

Note: I am *NOT* asking you to take sides. If you think they are both equally responsible, then you should be willing to say so. If you think one sides bears more blame/responsibility, then you should be willing to say so.


I think it's a self-perpetuating cycle of violence at this point. It no longer matters, at all, who is "at fault" for starting it. All that matters is ending it. And I DO think that Israel has more responsibility to sacrifice some things they want in order to do so than the Palestinians do, simply because they are in a far stronger position. If you have a never-ending cycle of violence, someone has to unilaterally walk away from the fight. That's the only way it will end....either that, or one or both sides will wipe the other out completely. And that's not a good outcome for anyone.

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:15:25 PM  
Baby Diego: "Sheet guise, zee mee-siles, zey are coming, fire our sheet!"

But I am Le Tired!

 
NightSteel 2008-12-19 12:16:52 PM  
Party Boy: Mr. [Bush] insisted on linking the guarantees to a halt in construction of Jewish settlements in the occupied West Bank and Gaza Strip.

A Bush insisting on conditions for a loan? That can't be right.

 
DarkLancelot [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:16:53 PM  
KaponoFor3: Party Boy: Who, in your opinion, deserves more blame for the ongoing Israeli/Palestinian conflict -- the Israel government or the militant Islamic groups Hamas/Islamic Jihad and Fatah?

I know I'm late to the game but I think it doesn't matter who's at fault. If you want to end a vendetta or bloodfeud or insurrection like this it doesn't matter who's at blame. Both sides will likely have to make some concessions, and if peace means enough to them they will. If they are too worried about being right or wrong, they won't be willing to have peace.

 
Phil Moskowitz 2008-12-19 12:18:19 PM  
Dear Palestinians,

Just lay down and starve and shut the fark up about it.

Sincerely,

Israel.

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:18:38 PM  
Party Boy: Hey. How do you measure suffering? Is that in meters? How do you answer these questions? Let me know when you have a serious question that i can answer with some sort of evidence.

You are like a ninja in your refusal to admit your bias. A persistent ninja.

Mnemia: If you have a never-ending cycle of violence, someone has to unilaterally walk away from the fight.

I think that a unilateral walking away from the fight would only work if it were the militant Islamic groups that walked away. Israel can (and has) shown restraint. I'm not so sure the same could be said as against Hamas and Islamic Jihad

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:19:40 PM  
DarkLancelot: I know I'm late to the game but I think it doesn't matter who's at fault.

I think you are probably right, but I want to flush out Party Boy's clear bias and see if he is mature enough to admit that he believes Israel is more at fault for the continued fighting than the Palestinians.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:21:54 PM  
DarkLancelot: I know I'm late to the game but I think it doesn't matter who's at fault.

tell that to KaponoFor3.

He's peppering this thread with that red herring.

 
Party Boy [TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:22:30 PM  
NightSteel: A Bush insisting on conditions for a loan? That can't be right.

there's more in the link.

 
CynicalLA 2008-12-19 12:22:44 PM  
KaponoFor3: DarkLancelot: I know I'm late to the game but I think it doesn't matter who's at fault.

I think you are probably right, but I want to flush out Party Boy's clear bias and see if he is mature enough to admit that he believes Israel is more at fault for the continued fighting than the Palestinians.


Some people are not partisan morans.

 
LarryDan43 2008-12-19 12:23:03 PM  
Israel needs buffer zone, so they build a buffer zone, then they settle it, then they'll need a new buffer zone, then they settle it, then they'll need a new buffer zone, then they can settle it...

 
Sev79 2008-12-19 12:25:19 PM  
God I'm sick of those assholes. Both sides.

 
KaponoFor3 [recently expired TotalFark] 2008-12-19 12:25:27 PM  
CynicalLA: Some people are not partisan morans.

Of course they aren't. But if that's the truth, then Party Boy should be more than willing to admit that both parties bear equal blame. He's unwilling to do that because he's continually dodging the question and doesn't want to admit his CLEAR bias towards the Palestinian people.

 
Tenebreux 2008-12-19 12:25:54 PM  
overlord_mike: israel: stop the rocket atacks and we'll open the border

hamas: open the border and then we'll stop the atacks

me: hamas, stop the damn rocket atacks. isreal let food and needed supplies throught

both: fark you, we do what we want


why don't the palistinians give up gaza for more teritory in the west bank?


Send in the Legions.

smartpei.typepad.com

"We decided to come back. Standby for rape."

 
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