Yeah, and the New Deal had nothing to do with it.......

Doooom: nd the New Deal had nothing to do with it

You're fixin' to get an opportunity to see the New Deal in all it's glory all over again.

Looks like someone needs to read up on the WPA, eh Subby?

Yeah...They did, but that was a whole other world. A whole other time. Now is not then and we are not them. They lived mostly on farms and grew their own food. They were mostly self sufficient. We are not. We are coddled, over fed, over pampered whiners and we wouldn't be able to hack it.

They did it so we'd never have to. I say, bring on the free money!

Please don't take me seriously, dumbasses

Dancin_In_Anson: You're fixin' to get an opportunity to see the New Deal in all it's glory all over again.

And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression and set the country on a path to establish itself as a super power.

One of the big problems with that is that we've lost a lot of self-reliance. What percentage of Americans can grow a successful vegetable garden? What percentage of Americans know how to fix their cars when they break down? How to fix things around their house? When the Depression hit, it wasn't as bad as it could be now since we still had strong agricultural / rural roots and most of us still knew how to do stuff like this.

Code_Archeologist: And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression and set the country on a path to establish itself as a super power.

one could argue that it really didn't do much more than keep our head above water until WWII could wipe out the infrastructures of basically every other industrialized nation to the point that our economy was the only one left standing... but the new deal had some good consequences too.

It's an outrage that a seekret Mooslim thinks that we should actually start investing in the U.S.

It's been swell and all giving our money to crooks and cronies, ignoring oversight of critical sectors of the economy, and offshoring our industry, but even the best of times just gotta end eventually.

It sucks that we can't pay Bangladeshis a dollar a day to fix our roads, but I'm sure there's a way...

Subby: mad points for style. Well written headline (I loved it, I really did) but a bit of an oversimplification of the problem. You may THINK a depression followed by a new deal type dealie is a good idea, but I can guarantee you it's not.

Also, we ARE going to be poor for awhile. Summer 2009 is going to be some (comparatively/relatively/subjectively) lean times for our lazy ass consumer society.

thomps: Code_Archeologist: And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression and set the country on a path to establish itself as a super power.

one could argue that it really didn't do much more than keep our head above water until WWII could wipe out the infrastructures of basically every other industrialized nation to the point that our economy was the only one left standing... but the new deal had some good consequences too.

This. Glad someone said it.

Code_Archeologist: And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression

Not so much.

Yeah, because in retrospect, all the elderly in this country absolutely loved the Great Depression. It' not like they have PTSD from talking about it or anything.

Dancin_In_Anson: Not so much.

You do realize that when you put up a NewsBusters link, you're actually hurting your argument instead of helping?

Maybe I'll post some DailyKos links to see if I can get you to see things my way.

Dancin_In_Anson: Code_Archeologist: And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression

Not so much.

Meh. The link complains about Krugman more than it actually says anything against what he's saying.

Krugman is saying most of Obama's plan is to let the Bush tax cuts expire in 2011, when we should be mostly out of this. That's what Keynes said too- spend until you're out of the recession, then raise taxes and cut spending.

I'm sure Krugman would reevaluate his points if we are still in dire straights 2 years from now.

Dancin_In_Anson: Code_Archeologist: And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression

Not so much.

From your link: then he was persuaded to balance the budget, or try to, and he raised taxes and cut spending, and the economy went back down again,
emphasis mine

So he raised taxes and cut spending on the programs that had brought the economy out of the doldrums before they had completed the process of bringing us out of the depression. If the unemployment rate at the time was paid attention to they would have recognized that while the GDP had bounced back to pre-depression levels, unemployment was still five times pre-depression levels. It was time to raise taxes to take advantage of the growing GDP, but it was not time to cut funds to programs that were still providing jobs and aid.

Even then, "raising taxes" wouldn't be that bad an idea anyways, because in this case it's not so much raising taxes as it is tranfering the overall tax burden from the middle class to the wealthy. If you read my 4 posts yesterday (new window) you will see Bernanke essentially argues the same thing with an "inflation tax" and a "future fiscal tax;" ie, if we increase the debt now and specifically tell people that they are going to be taxed in the future it will be in their benefit to spend now, reviving the economy, etc...

I think that the solution should be, rather than essentially giving the banking industry all the money, we should offer them twenty cents on the dollar for the American public's credit card debt. Make it illegal for them to sell it to debt collectors, or anyone except the government. Then the government goes about collecting the cash.

Nice little boost to the coffers of the government, and it'll make the banks think about giving Chuck Collegestudent or Ronny Redneck $15,000 of unsecured credit.

Code_Archeologist: From your link: then he was persuaded to balance the budget, or try to, and he raised taxes and cut spending, and the economy went back down again, emphasis mine

So he raised taxes and cut spending on the programs that had brought the economy out of the doldrums before they had completed the process of bringing us out of the depression. If the unemployment rate at the time was paid attention to they would have recognized that while the GDP had bounced back to pre-depression levels, unemployment was still five times pre-depression levels. It was time to raise taxes to take advantage of the growing GDP, but it was not time to cut funds to programs that were still providing jobs and aid.

Money dried up. People talk about budgets being in deficit now but FDR exceeded GDP a year or two back then. That would be like Obama spending $17-20 trillion next year. Think what you like but the new deal was a way to temporarily keep the train moving. It did little to end the depression Hirohito turned our economy around whether you want to admit it or not.

schoberp: I think that the solution should be, rather than essentially giving the banking industry all the money, we should offer them twenty cents on the dollar for the American public's credit card debt. Make it illegal for them to sell it to debt collectors, or anyone except the government. Then the government goes about collecting the cash.

Nice little boost to the coffers of the government, and it'll make the banks think about giving Chuck Collegestudent or Ronny Redneck $15,000 of unsecured credit.

Meh, That would screw the banks. More importantly, there is roughly 350,000,000,000 (or 350 billion) (new window) in credit card debt and 300 million people, so it's only averaged out to be $1100 per person.

A much better solution would be to restrict the maximum interest rate as well as the maximum balance a credit card could have. I believe it should be considered fraud and predatory lending if you lend significant amounts to someone who cannot control their spending- which is the main problem with the modern banking industry. They try to make too much profit: Wells Fargo has been known specifically to open banks in low income neighborhoods and then charge high over draft fees because they know people like that are more likely to over draft.

We cannot continue to treat American Capitalism as anything goes, try to screw you neighbor. The system of trading is supposed to represent rational, good for both individual type transactions. Banks have forgotten that premise.

thomps: Code_Archeologist: And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression and set the country on a path to establish itself as a super power.

one could argue that it really didn't do much more than keep our head above water until WWII could wipe out the infrastructures of basically every other industrialized nation to the point that our economy was the only one left standing... but the new deal had some good consequences too.

Tennessee Valley Authority. Anyone trashing the New Deal, living in or descended from residents of the TVA belt, does not know what side his bread is buttered on.

sloppy shoes: Meh, That would screw the banks. More importantly, there is roughly 350,000,000,000 (or 350 billion) (new window) in credit card debt and 300 million people, so it's only averaged out to be $1100 per person.

Well....how did FDR deal with that? We should just do that.

Folks, the New Deal and these gigantic corporate bail out packages have nothing in common. Stop name dropping, it's not a valid argument.

It's a little odd to me the Administration is considering bailing out the auto industry which is more heavily investing in China and Russia than the USA. I wonder if this $850 billion will have the same end point.

lunchinlewis:
Well....how did FDR deal with that? We should just do that.

Folks, the New Deal and these gigantic corporate bail out packages have nothing in common. Stop name dropping, it's not a valid argument.

Did I say credit cards had anything to do with the New Deal? More importantly, the new deal references are referring to Obama's stimulus package, not the bank bailouts.

jonasborg: It's a little odd to me the Administration is considering bailing out the auto industry which is more heavily investing in China and Russia than the USA. I wonder if this $850 billion will have the same end point.

man talk about damned if you do, damned if you don't. are the big 3 really catching shiat for trying to get foot-holds in emerging markets?

hillbillypharmacist: You do realize that when you put up a NewsBusters link, you're actually hurting your argument instead of helping?

I was going to link just the video interview with Krugman, but it's easier to scan text rather than sit and listen to the whole thing. It's also easier to biatch about the source rather than the quote too, isn't it?


sloppy shoes: The link complains about Krugman more than it actually says anything against what he's saying.

They agree with what he said:

it took an enormous public works program known as World War II to bring the economy out of a Depression.

Code_Archeologist: then he was persuaded to balance the budget, or try to, and he raised taxes and cut spending, and the economy went back down again,

Maybe someone should give cutting taxes AND spending a whirl...Crazy talk eh?

Dancin_In_Anson: It's also easier to biatch about the source rather than the quote too, isn't it?

Stunningly easier.

Yes, fark the poor people. We've saved the banks, so god forbid we try to help the people.

Dancin_In_Anson: Maybe someone should give cutting taxes AND spending a whirl...Crazy talk eh?

Cutting spending in a recession is possibly the worst thing you can do.

To be fair, black people invented rock and roll. Hard core porn and atomic weaponry has always been the white man's domain.

Ok, let's try a little basic math here....

$850 billion / 305 million Americans = ~$2786.88 for every man, woman, child & in-between-gender freaks in the country.

So say an average family has at least four people in it. We need to send every family a check for 10 grand? Uh, yeah.

Bullshiat.

IF it passes, each family will get about 1/8 to 1/10th of that. I wonder what will happen to the remainder?

Just another way to move large amounts of cash into the hands of the rich. Fark bailouts.

Lando Lincoln: One of the big problems with that is that we've lost a lot of self-reliance. What percentage of Americans can grow a successful vegetable garden? What percentage of Americans know how to fix their cars when they break down? How to fix things around their house? When the Depression hit, it wasn't as bad as it could be now since we still had strong agricultural / rural roots and most of us still knew how to do stuff like this.

I don't know, maybe I'm idealistic, but I think most people could manage to grow veggies and fix most basic stuff around their house.
then again, I have encountered a lot of friends who can't even cook. *sighs*

hillbillypharmacist: NewsBusters

I love it when blogger hacks try to take on Nobel Laureates, pretending they know more than them. Especially when the writer's experience is listed in his "bio" link:

Profile:
Noel Sheppard is the Associate Editor of NewsBusters as well as a small business owner residing in Northern California.

Oh yeah, I'll trust his word over Krugman any day of the week.

Lando Lincoln: What percentage of Americans know how to fix their cars when they break down?

I don't know if that one would fly these days. The cars back then were purely mechanical. What percentage of Americans know how to fix their car's computer system?

This is why I am never having children. Because our government is basically flipping them off while pissing on their future.

I, for one, welcome the decline of overconsumption

/but isnt that stimulus package going for infrastructure and science n stuff?

Katie98_KT: I don't know, maybe I'm idealistic, but I think most people could manage to grow veggies and fix most basic stuff around their house.

I could do that. The city could sell plots in parks for apartment dwellers to grow food. And if you don't have a job, you could spend all day doing it.

Shostie: I don't know if that one would fly these days. The cars back then were purely mechanical. What percentage of Americans know how to fix their car's computer system?

It doesn't really matter that cars were a lot easier to fix back then. The fact remains that I believe we'd be considerably worse off than the Depression-era Americans.

Postal Penguin: This is why I am never having children. Because our government is basically flipping them off while pissing on their future.

And those who elected this government are blameless?

Think of how much more hardcore the porn could be with $850 billion behind it!

To begin with, we were in better fiscal shape in 1933 viz. our balance of payments, federal deficit, strength of the dollar, etc. than we are today.

850 Billion dollars!!???
Christ, get those printing presses fired up.

You saw the dollar plunge yesterday due to the Fed's actions on Tues. right?
It will take 850 billion to buy the proverbial loaf in a year or two.



Peter Schiff Approved.

Code_Archeologist: Dancin_In_Anson: You're fixin' to get an opportunity to see the New Deal in all it's glory all over again.

And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression and set the country on a path to establish itself as a super power.

You're trying to make sense to a luddite.

Doooom: Yeah, and the New Deal had nothing to do with it.......

OMG this guy just pwned everybody by mentioning the new deal. What a trump card! I'm glad he mentioned it before I got a chance to make the same comment, thus embarrassing myself by making a conclusory statement void of any support! Thx dude!

Lando Lincoln: Shostie: I don't know if that one would fly these days. The cars back then were purely mechanical. What percentage of Americans know how to fix their car's computer system?

It doesn't really matter that cars were a lot easier to fix back then. The fact remains that I believe we'd be considerably worse off than the Depression-era Americans.

Have you actually read up on the conditions during the depression? We won't be worse off at all.

"We are running out of the traditional ammunition that's used in a recession," Obama said yesterday after the announcement.


Ah, then it's time for change! I suggest a jewel-tipped silver bullet?


(from hither)

hnic17: Doooom: Yeah, and the New Deal had nothing to do with it.......

OMG this guy just pwned everybody by mentioning the new deal. What a trump card! I'm glad he mentioned it before I got a chance to make the same comment, thus embarrassing myself by making a conclusory statement void of any support! Thx dude!

Some people have never heard of WWII and its effects on removing the US out of depression.

Unemployment:
1933 24.9
1934 21.7
1935 20.1
1936 16.9
1937 14.3
1938 19.0
1939 17.2
1940 14.6
1941 9.9
1942 4.7
1943 1.9
1944 1.2
1945 1.9

GilRuiz1: Ah, then it's time for change! I suggest a jewel-tipped silver bullet?

Cool, encrust that biatch with some rhodium and we'll be cookin' with fire!

madmann: IF it passes, each family will get about 1/8 to 1/10th of that. I wonder what will happen to the remainder?

I know it's cool around here not to do so, but you really should RTFA:

The latest proposal is circulating in Congress as Obama's advisers work with lawmakers to craft a package aimed at improving roads, bridges and other parts of the U.S.'s crumbling infrastructure. The plan probably will also include state aid for unemployment and health-care programs and incentives such as tax credits to promote renewable energy production, lawmakers have said. The president-elect wants to create as many as 2.5 million jobs over the next two years.

big_pth: Yeah...They did, but that was a whole other world. A whole other time. Now is not then and we are not them. They lived mostly on farms and grew their own food. They were mostly self sufficient. We are not. We are coddled, over fed, over pampered whiners and we wouldn't be able to hack it.

Phil Gramm, is that you?

Yeah! Make bombs, not bridges!

err... wtf?

Why can't people accept the fact that we need to bring consumption in line with production, and stop relying so heavily on borrowed money (both publicly and privately)?

thomps: Code_Archeologist: And this is bad how? The economic policies of the New Deal brought the nation out of the Depression and set the country on a path to establish itself as a super power.

one could argue that it really didn't do much more than keep our head above water until WWII could wipe out the infrastructures of basically every other industrialized nation to the point that our economy was the only one left standing... but the new deal had some good consequences too.

THIS!!

The New Deal was a prime example of just how idiotic such a grand, bold economic recovery program is. MEGA assloads of money were spent to achieve very little.