I saw The Runaways open for the Ramones in 1978. They were hot. But The Ramones were way better.

Say what you will about Joan Jett. She's still hot.

Joan farkin' rocks.

Pete T. gave us punk rock, power pop AND Joan Jett?
May God bless that man.

SplitGuy: Pete T. gave us punk rock

BZZZT! Not true, not even close.

/ and the Beatles gave us power pop first, Pete just refined the art.

Are you a mod or a rocker?

Pervy

Soumac: Are you a mod or a rocker?

Neither, I'm a mocker.

Glad to see the mention of Girl in a Coma. I caught them at SXSW last year and they were amazing.

The Dynamite Monkey: SplitGuy: Pete T. gave us punk rock

BZZZT! Not true, not even close.

"I Can't Explain", "My Generation", and "Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere". Pete may not have invented punk, but he defined it for a lot of people who have taken up the cause since.

Nothing gets in my way/Not even locked doors/Don't follow the lines that been laid before/I get along anyway I dare/Anyway anyhow anywhere

jj325: Pete may not have invented punk, but he defined it for a lot of people who have taken up the cause since

Yes, he defines it for a lot of people -- people who have no idea what it means.

The Kingsmen, The Sonics and others were making "punk" music before the Who ever recorded. The songs you listed have nothing at all to do with punk, not stylistically or ideologically.

They are not proto-punk (which is really what you are calling it) and they are not punk (which was a retro movement hearkening back to the great 60's bands which were on the Nuggets compilation). Yes The Jam and Generation X were Who fans but that would mean that The Faces were a punk rock band also because that is what Steve Jones loved.

If you need a very concise timeline, it goes like this:

Kingsmen - Sonics - Velvets - STOOGES - Dolls - Dictators - Ramones - Pistols - Every other damn thing that followed.

Not The Who

/ ps I love The Who

Look here (new window)for more info on the bands that laid the foundation for punk rock.

What we think of as Punk, as per CBGB and the scene the Pistols spawned, was largely a retro movement back to this aesthetic.

Produced by Joan Jett....

Back in high school loved The Runaways. Girls my age that could rock out! How cool was that? Had a crush on Joan until I figured out that we played for the same team, still am in total awe of her music.

Link (new window)

The Dynamite Monkey: Kingsmen - Sonics - Velvets - STOOGES - Dolls - Dictators - Ramones - Pistols - Every other damn thing that followed.

No Monks?

if anybody says anyting bad about joan jett i will beat your ass....if joan doesn't get to you first!

McBatt: The Dynamite Monkey: Kingsmen - Sonics - Velvets - STOOGES - Dolls - Dictators - Ramones - Pistols - Every other damn thing that followed.

No Monks?

Yes they belong there also. And others. It's just a representation.

The Dynamite Monkey: jj325: Pete may not have invented punk, but he defined it for a lot of people who have taken up the cause since

Yes, he defines it for a lot of people -- people who have no idea what it means.

The Kingsmen, The Sonics and others were making "punk" music before the Who ever recorded. The songs you listed have nothing at all to do with punk, not stylistically or ideologically.

They are not proto-punk (which is really what you are calling it) and they are not punk (which was a retro movement hearkening back to the great 60's bands which were on the Nuggets compilation). Yes The Jam and Generation X were Who fans but that would mean that The Faces were a punk rock band also because that is what Steve Jones loved.

If you need a very concise timeline, it goes like this:

Kingsmen - Sonics - Velvets - STOOGES - Dolls - Dictators - Ramones - Pistols - Every other damn thing that followed.

Not The Who

/ ps I love The Who

Disagree completely...agressive music, written from the first person perspective, with social commentary that was negative and/or calling out the social norms.
Garage rock is great but the sound alone doesn't make it punk (or a precursor of).
Townshend was very fortunate to be in a band with Entwistle and Moon, but his guitar and his lyrics defined the sound.

No Who means no Stooges.
During a recent SXSW interview Ron Asheton told the story of meeting Pete for the first time earlier that day.
"I said to Pete, 'If it wasn't for you, there wouldn't be a me.'"

/As kids he and Dave Alexander ran away to the UK and saw the Who at the Cavern in '65 and he said he was transixed.
//'Nuff said. Thread over.

McBatt: No Monks?

nice.

SplitGuy: //'Nuff said. Thread over.

You didn't read my post....

As I noted, merely being an influence to punk musicians doesn't mean you invented punk.

To have invented it, you would have to have actually played some.

Please see my faces/pistol reference for context.

McBatt: The Dynamite Monkey: Kingsmen - Sonics - Velvets - STOOGES - Dolls - Dictators - Ramones - Pistols - Every other damn thing that followed.

No Monks?

No MC5?

Sid Vicious' Corpse: No MC5?

Could be, legitimately, but for the short version the Stooges cover the entire detroit metro area!

The Dynamite Monkey: Kingsmen - Sonics - Velvets - STOOGES - Dolls - Dictators - Ramones - Pistols - Every other damn thing that followed.

And then there are the guys who rarely get the credit, like Richard Hell or Link Wray


/saw Joan live a few times, always a good show

The Dynamite Monkey: SplitGuy: //'Nuff said. Thread over.

You didn't read my post....

As I noted, merely being an influence to punk musicians doesn't mean you invented punk.

To have invented it, you would have to have actually played some.

Please see my faces/pistol reference for context.

You didn't read my post...

As I noted, the Who were really the first band to play agressive music, written from the first person perspective, with social commentary that was negative and/or calling out the social norms.

In 1965
The Fabs...first person relationship songs
The Stones...societal put-downs written in the third person
Dylan...first person biting commentary, but the music didn't have the power of the Who.

Was it called 'punk'? No. Was what Little Richard was playing in '52,53, 54 called 'rock and roll'? No, but that's certainly what it was. (Yes, the term was coined supposedly by Freed a couple of years before, but it wasn't nationally-known.)

Punk as a retro statement harking back to the Nuggets bands? I see your point, but only to a small degree. The Sex Pistols and the Jam were harking back to the Electric Prunes and the Knickerbockers? Maybe, if you remove Townshend's lyrics and the Who's rhythm section's contributions out of the mix. Which is impossible.

So I say no.

I stand by my earlier statement. If the Who aren't playing punk rock from both a lyric and sonic perspective on My Generation, Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere, Out In The Street, etc, then nobody has.


/Love all those bands above, plus all those mentioned in your earlier string.
//Despite all the Who's notoriety, I still feel they're somewhat underrated (if that makes any sense)

SplitGuy: As I noted, the Who were really the first band to play agressive music, written from the first person perspective, with social commentary that was negative and/or calling out the social norms.

That's not punk. That's just rock. And no they weren't the first, as I had pointed out. And political != punk. That's the problem, you're definition of punk is so broad it becomes meaningless. Using that definition, Jerry Lee was Punk, and so was Dylan.

SplitGuy: Punk as a retro statement harking back to the Nuggets bands? I see your point, but only to a small degree.

Well you should see it to a larger degree, because that's what it is. And the books of Legs McNeil, Clinton Heynlin, Jon Savage and others support that position. Personally I do not see how any other definition could be relevant.

SplitGuy: If the Who aren't playing punk rock from both a lyric and sonic perspective on My Generation, Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere, Out In The Street, etc, then nobody has.

OK, then nobody has.

My Generation != Your Generation

Again, I am not saying that the who didn't influence people who were important punk rock musicians -- just that they didn't "give us" punk rock.

Can you find any music historians that support your position?

(wakes up)

Somebody said DICTATORS?


TWO TUB MAN!

The Dynamite Monkey: SplitGuy: As I noted, the Who were really the first band to play agressive music, written from the first person perspective, with social commentary that was negative and/or calling out the social norms.

That's not punk. That's just rock. And no they weren't the first, as I had pointed out. And political != punk. That's the problem, you're your definition of punk is so broad it becomes meaningless. Using that definition, Jerry Lee was Punk, and so was Dylan.

SplitGuy: Punk as a retro statement harking back to the Nuggets bands? I see your point, but only to a small degree.

Well you should see it to a larger degree, because that's what it is. And the books of Legs McNeil, Clinton Heynlin, Jon Savage and others support that position. Personally I do not see how any other definition could be relevant.

SplitGuy: If the Who aren't playing punk rock from both a lyric and sonic perspective on My Generation, Anyway, Anyhow, Anywhere, Out In The Street, etc, then nobody has.

OK, then nobody has.

My Generation != Your Generation

Again, I am not saying that the who didn't influence people who were important punk rock musicians -- just that they didn't "give us" punk rock.

Can you find any music historians that support your position?

Certainly. Dave Marsh. Hell, Townshend's early (in)ability as a guitarist defined the punk aestheic (some garage bands, too). I never said anyone 'gives' anything. Nothing ever falls from the sky. Nuggets stuff an important part. Sure? The Castaways spawning the Jam and Sex Pistols without the Who to really change the way the music was played and heard? No. No Entwistle and no Moon changes everything.

That's not punk. That's just rock.
Not true. And certainly not what we know what punk is today. "Tutti Frutti" was rock, so was "I Want To Hold Your Hand".
"My Generation" was rock, but also punk. The other two aren't.

That's not punk. That's just rock. And no they weren't the first, as I had pointed out. And political != punk. That's the problem, you're your definition of punk is so broad it becomes meaningless. Using that definition, Jerry Lee was Punk, and so was Dylan.
Now you're just being silly, but probably intentionally so. I'm reading what appears to be a 'librarian's' perspective.
Quoting writers without much insight of your own? {Yawn}

SplitGuy: Certainly. Dave Marsh.

Which book? I'd like to see that rationale...

SplitGuy: I never said anyone 'gives' anything.

Really?

SplitGuy Quote 2008-12-17 07:39:36 PM
Pete T. gave us punk rock, power pop AND Joan Jett?

SplitGuy: "My Generation" was rock, but also punk

No, it wasn't! Again you do not understand what punk rock is...

SplitGuy: Quoting writers without much insight of your own? {Yawn}

Yes, you should yawn, because quoting sources and recognized experts is certainly unheard of in any discussion.

I think you're just getting snippy because you know you are wrong here. You should just admit that Townshend was nothing more than an influence. Saying "My Generation" was punk rock, when nobody called it that then, totally devalues the movement a decade later, which is when the term came into popular use.

The Dynamite Monkey: SplitGuy: Certainly. Dave Marsh.

Which book? I'd like to see that rationale...

SplitGuy: I never said anyone 'gives' anything.

Really?

SplitGuy Quote 2008-12-17 07:39:36 PM
Pete T. gave us punk rock, power pop AND Joan Jett?

SplitGuy: "My Generation" was rock, but also punk

No, it wasn't! Again you do not understand what punk rock is...

SplitGuy: Quoting writers without much insight of your own? {Yawn}

Yes, you should yawn, because quoting sources and recognized experts is certainly unheard of in any discussion.

I think you're just getting snippy because you know you are wrong here. You should just admit that Townshend was nothing more than an influence. Saying "My Generation" was punk rock, when nobody called it that then, totally devalues the movement a decade later, which is when the term came into popular use.

Nah, I'm not snippy, nor am I wrong. Discussing punk and hanging your hat on the Nuggets stuff but not even mentioning the Who is, frankly, silly. And wrong. Historically wrong.
See Stalin editing out Trotsky.

Shiat- the Nazz' 'Open My Eyes' is a direct rip off/tribute to 'I Can't Explain'.
But if you want to give Rundgren more credit than Townshend, have at it.

SplitGuy: Nah, I'm not snippy, nor am I wrong. Discussing punk and hanging your hat on the Nuggets stuff but not even mentioning the Who is, frankly, silly. And wrong. Historically wrong.

Again, find me one published source that agrees with you.

I've not seen one. I've seen plenty that agree with me.

The Who are not punk rock. It's a laughable opinion.

The Dynamite Monkey: SplitGuy: Nah, I'm not snippy, nor am I wrong. Discussing punk and hanging your hat on the Nuggets stuff but not even mentioning the Who is, frankly, silly. And wrong. Historically wrong.

Again, find me one published source that agrees with you.

I've not seen one. I've seen plenty that agree with me.

The Who are not punk rock. It's a laughable opinion.

I already mentioned a source.

Pete, 1982, discussing punk: "I'm sure I invented it...One of the reasons I'm pleased that the Who kept going this long is because if we hadn't carried on, and the Stones not carried on, the Sex Pistols would never have existed, and I think the Sex Pistols were incredibly vital."

/Good enough for me
//Pete's an arse-licking Stones fan (his words) so he'll always reward the Stones
///Back to the library, my dear Monkey

The Dynamite Monkey:

SplitGuy: "My Generation" was rock, but also punk

No, it wasn't! Again you do not understand what punk rock is...


"OMFG! I can't get back to work now; somebody is wrong on the internet. I must correct this with every fiber of my being."

Seriously, if you have to argue this fervently about what is and isn't "punk", you're a douche. Folks, these are the kinds of people who have music history degrees and aren't able to play a single instrument. No one but you two cares who created or inspired punk first, and certainly no one is interested in how big your punk-rock e-peen is.

SplitGuy: Pete, 1982, discussing punk: "I'm sure I invented it...One of the reasons I'm pleased that the Who kept going this long is because if we hadn't carried on, and the Stones not carried on, the Sex Pistols would never have existed, and I think the Sex Pistols were incredibly vital."

And that is his theory, which is his. Anne Elk.

So I guess if I say I invented the polio vaccine and the mambo you'll take me at my word? C'mon man, objectivity

PDXBishop: "OMFG! I can't get back to work now; somebody is wrong on the internet. I must correct this with every fiber of my being."

Seriously, if you have to argue this fervently about what is and isn't "punk", you're a douche. Folks, these are the kinds of people who have music history degrees and aren't able to play a single instrument. No one but you two cares who created or inspired punk first, and certainly no one is interested in how big your punk-rock e-peen is.

I certainly hope you see the irony in your statement.

/ no music history degree, just a hobby
// play several instruments, not sure why that would matter tho, and have performed with people you have heard of, even some mentioned in this thread.
/// obviously you care
//// hurry you are needed over in the baseball thread, no one has posted "baseball sucks" yet. Hurry!

The Dynamite Monkey:

I certainly hope you see the irony in your statement.

/ no music history degree, just a hobby
// play several instruments, not sure why that would matter tho, and have performed with people you have heard of, even some mentioned in this thread.
/// obviously you care
//// hurry you are needed over in the baseball thread, no one has posted "baseball sucks" yet. Hurry!

Ahh, irony: the one word on the internet that means whatever its user thinks it means.

And no, I seriously don't care; I'm just tired of a thread about Joan Jett being threadjacked by a couple of jackasses who have to have a pissing contest about their punk rock credentials. Even if one of you is deemed to be "right", nobody but you is going to remember it two days from now.

Tho' I disagree completely with what the monkey has to say, I respect his right to say it.
There's about 800 other threads going in Fark, so why so focused on this one, Bishop?

And this kind of fun, silly, occassionally combative back and forth makes Fark Fark.

/If I were Joan Jett, I'd be getting a kick out of these replies.

PDXBishop: And no, I seriously don't care; I'm just tired of a thread about Joan Jett being threadjacked by a couple of jackasses who have to have a pissing contest about their punk rock credentials. Even if one of you is deemed to be "right", nobody but you is going to remember it two days from now.

Dude, try decaf....

Two thoughtful people were having an inconsequential music discussion in a music discussion thread. Neither of us expected it to be for the ages. It was like arguing Mays or Mantle at the bar for fun... get it? For FUN.

Only one person here was using word like "punk rock credentials" and "douche". We were discussing the lineage of a music form we both like. You are the one who went all postal about it for some reason. And clearly you do care, or you wouldn't bother.

Seriously, I think you have a problem. If you want to join the discussion and add something to the debate, fine. If you just wanna come in here and call people assholes... well that's fine too. I am the one who really doesn't care.

/ And I AM still right Split... ;-)
// but thanks for sticking up for me
/// so we can call it a tie, just so PDXB doesn't have an anuerism

This is a Joan Jett/Pete T. thread, after all. Compared to some Politics threads, this is pretty tame
/Was really sticking up for the concept and forum, not you (or me)
//No, I'm correct, but agree to respectfully disagree (as I do recognize the importance of every band you mention, just not to the degree you do)
///Going to play some prog-rock to forget the whole thing
////With the introduction of synths as rock instruments on Who's Next, Pete virtually invented prog-r...oh fark off, SplitGuy

SplitGuy: ///Going to play some prog-rock to forget the whole thing

Ach! Now we are truly mortal enemies to the death!

SplitGuy: ////With the introduction of synths as rock instruments on Who's Next, Pete virtually invented prog-r...oh fark off, SplitGuy

Wouldn't argue with you on that one...

Enjoy. Later.