Should should provoke some well reasoned and thoughtful discussions...

Mods, PLEASE greenlight this!

JohDHJ: This should provoke some well reasoned and thoughtful discussions...

Mods, PLEASE greenlight this!

FTFM

Unions have been anathema to Southerners ever since Nat Turner tried to organize the slaves.

Unions are dinosaurs that should have gone extinct right about the time Jimmy Hoffa disappeared.

/just doing my part, JohDHJ

Southerners do their extortion a bit differently than the Detroit thugs have done.

We should repeal the child labor laws while we're at it. Kids will work for peanuts.

It is easy for employers to get rid of unions: treat the employees as if they were unionized.

I live in NJ, a very pro-labor area. 7 years ago, Wegmans supermarket opened a store in my neighborhood. Unlike the other chains in the area, Wegmans is not unionized. Yet, they were flooded with applications as they offered wages and benefits comparable to the unionized markets. The union had protesters outside the store's parking lot urging a boycott for almost a year. The protesters are gone now and the store is still there, bigger, cleaner than it's competitors with competitive pricing (some things are cheaper, some things aren't).

Many of the store's initial employees were kids from the other supermarkets. If working in those stores was like the unionized store I worked in when I was in high school and college, I can understand why. In my store, a management vs. employee attitude was always felt, even when it was detrimental to business and affected customers(fault of both sides -- why should an employee do something extra when they'll receive no benefit and just be sh-t upon by management later). Employees were always in a bad mood. Threats of a writeup were always present, along with contacting the union rep anytime somebody got pissed. Deadwood played the union rules perfectly. I don't sense that in Wegmans.

Wegmans itself is commonly recognized as one of the top 100 employers in the nation. More importantly, they seem to treat employees fairly so employees don't feel the need to unionize.

damageddude: It is easy for employers to get rid of unions: treat the employees as if they were unionized.

That only works as long as there are unions around. As soon as there are no more unions, you better believe those companies will go all "Wal-Mart" on their employees.

I thnk ths headlne is mssing somethng.

Marcus Aurelius: We should repeal the child labor laws while we're at it. Kids will work for peanuts.

That's kind of the opposite of the argument against unions. We now have TONS of laws and organizations protecting workers, and providing guidelines for fair pay and benefits. Unions were useful in the 30s. Today, not so much.

/Ex CWA Local 6300

Reasons to be thankful for unions:
5-day work week
8-hour work day
Child labor laws
Wages you can live on
Paid vacations
Paid sick leave
Disability insurance
Worker's Comp.
Retirement plans
Health insurance
Employer paid life insurance
FMLA

Now, are some unions bloated and sometimes doing more harm than good? Sure, and the UAW is riding that line, currently. But, to say that Unions are completely useless and don't benefit workers at all is ignoring the history of labor relations in this country. A lot of people fought hard (and died) for the average Joe to be able to earn an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

Lundah: Reasons to be thankful for unions:
5-day work week
8-hour work day
Child labor laws
Wages you can live on
Paid vacations
Paid sick leave
Disability insurance
Worker's Comp.
Retirement plans
Health insurance
Employer paid life insurance
FMLA

Now, are some unions bloated and sometimes doing more harm than good? Sure, and the UAW is riding that line, currently. But, to say that Unions are completely useless and don't benefit workers at all is ignoring the history of labor relations in this country. A lot of people fought hard (and died) for the average Joe to be able to earn an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

Were unions necessary at one point in our history? Yes.

Are most of them necessary now? No.

PacManDreaming: damageddude: It is easy for employers to get rid of unions: treat the employees as if they were unionized.

That only works as long as there are unions around. As soon as there are no more unions, you better believe those companies will go all "Wal-Mart" on their employees.

THIS. a big reason many employers actually offer decent benefits and treat employees well is because the employees have the right to organize and demand those things collectively.

slayer199: Are most of them necessary now? No.

I disagree. Some are top-heavy and haven't kept up with their real mission, but if unions suddenly disappeared, it would be bad news for the American worker.

I would live in Wegmans if they'd let me.

Marcus Aurelius: We should repeal the child labor laws while we're at it. Kids will work for peanuts.

I think it is cute how you equate the refusal to facilitate the gross excesses of the UAW with the abuse of children. Kind of like equating the refusal to eat four Big Macs per day with having clinical anorexia.

Lundah: Reasons to be thankful for unions:
5-day work week
8-hour work day
Child labor laws
Wages you can live on
Paid vacations
Paid sick leave
Disability insurance
Worker's Comp.
Retirement plans
Health insurance
Employer paid life insurance
FMLA


All of these came about a half-century ago or more, except for FMLA, which was prompted more by the Clinton "soccer mom" phenom of the 1992 election than anything.

Do you thank unions for our no longer curing disease with leeches, too?

bronyaur1: Do you thank unions for our no longer curing disease with leeches, too?

So, you're saying you'd rather have a progressive government to guarantee these rights, instead of letting unions do it?

bronyaur1: Marcus Aurelius: We should repeal the child labor laws while we're at it. Kids will work for peanuts.

I think it is cute how you equate the refusal to facilitate the gross excesses of the UAW with the abuse of children. Kind of like equating the refusal to eat four Big Macs per day with having clinical anorexia.

It's interesting to watch the psychology at work tho, isn't it? You get the same sort of thing in nearly every 'hot button' debate issue: unions, abortion, gay rights, prayer in schools, etc etc....

Lundah: bronyaur1: Do you thank unions for our no longer curing disease with leeches, too?

So, you're saying you'd rather have a progressive government to guarantee these rights, instead of letting unions do it?

Good God, yes.

Modern American unions actually are an artifact of the Progressive Movement of the early 20th century, not the other way around.

Lundah: bronyaur1: Do you thank unions for our no longer curing disease with leeches, too?

So, you're saying you'd rather have a progressive government to guarantee these rights, instead of letting unions do it?

I'd rather have employers understand that just because someone is on the payroll does NOT mean they're a slave to be abused for pennies on the dollar. Conversely, I'd like workers to understand that they are there to do a job, and that they should do that job quickly, efficiently and with a minimum of fuss.

Of course, I'd also like to dance on RIAA's grave and shred the Patriot Act but that ain't gonna happen.

Weaver95: bronyaur1: Marcus Aurelius: We should repeal the child labor laws while we're at it. Kids will work for peanuts.

I think it is cute how you equate the refusal to facilitate the gross excesses of the UAW with the abuse of children. Kind of like equating the refusal to eat four Big Macs per day with having clinical anorexia.

It's interesting to watch the psychology at work tho, isn't it? You get the same sort of thing in nearly every 'hot button' debate issue: unions, abortion, gay rights, prayer in schools, etc etc....

I agree. The "slippery slope" argument is always useful to support extreme positions.

bronyaur1: I agree. The "slippery slope" argument is always useful to support extreme positions.

I find it annoying and mildly insulting. Not much I can do about it tho.

buzzvert: I thnk ths headlne is mssing somethng.

Like, what, say, it's all foreign car plants? Hmmm? yeah, I noticed that omission too

Lundah: Sure, and the UAW is riding that line, currently.

Riding the line? The UAW crossed that line and is so far beyond it, they forget the line has ever existed. The amount of money people get paid for standard line jobs is insane, if you get laid off, and you don't work for a year or two, you still get paid 85% of your leaving wage. I don't know of any other sector that so drastically overpays it's employees. The UAW has very few others to blame if GM/Chrysler goes under. I think Ford will be alright.

/Not saying that the UAW is the entire reason that the big three are in trouble, but they are about 75% of it.

Lundah: So, you're saying you'd rather have a progressive government to guarantee these rights, instead of letting unions do it?

The people will go where the good jobs are. It's a very democratic way of running a business. You treat your employees like crap, they will leave. You treat them well, they will stay. There's a reason that WalMart has a huge turnover rate, most stores treat the employees like crap. The store I worked at was great, and I'd have no qualms about going back if I lost my tech job.

Lundah: Reasons to be thankful for unions:
5-day work week
8-hour work day
Child labor laws
Wages you can live on
Paid vacations
Paid sick leave
Disability insurance
Worker's Comp.
Retirement plans
Health insurance
Employer paid life insurance
FMLA

Now, are some unions bloated and sometimes doing more harm than good? Sure, and the UAW is riding that line, currently. But, to say that Unions are completely useless and don't benefit workers at all is ignoring the history of labor relations in this country. A lot of people fought hard (and died) for the average Joe to be able to earn an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.

My girl asked me last night, how I can be a Republican, and still support unions. And pretty much, I can support unions, because labor relations in this country are still tense. And there's still a need for them.

While some unions have gone awry, that isn't some nebulous entity that has gone awry, that's the rank and file not doing much to rein it in--while other unions are doing fine to protect the interests of their workers.

I'm a member of the NWU--and the National Writer's Union does fine by me. Insurance, contract perusal, agent lists, and a good list of services for my dues. And they're working like hell to spotlight some of the more egregious practices that the publishing houses try to foist off on new and inexperienced writers.

The shaving that a lot of writers' get for their work is tiny compared to the profit made by the publishing houses, and what they're trying to shove down writers' throats--Print on Demand, into perpetuity rights, assignation of copyright, on-line publishing, and more. It's worse for writers for TV and film, as they're getting scalped for on-line distribution and the studios are whistling all the way to the bank--more so in the music industry even.

There's a reason for organized labor, and part of that reason, is that to even the playing field. While management might not like dealing with workers who are organized, it's because they can't just foist off demands without redress.

And the fallout is, that if businesses would like to dispense with unions, they still have to offer terms that are comparable to the unionized industries. The strength of the American economy has come from a middle class that can afford to support industries that cater to them--and unions helped build a strong middle class that invested in their communities, and businesses and franchises that sprang up to service their needs helped buoy up a lot of industries.

Which folks tend to forget when they want to rail against unions. That we are losing swaths of the middle class, and their purchasing power, and ability to keep money circulating is rippling all along the economy.

Mercutio879: /Not saying that the UAW is the entire reason that the big three are in trouble, but they are about 75% of it.

It's difficult to assign blame in the big three mess, but yeah - UAW is a big part of the problem. Not that i'm excusing the automakers themselves for their farkups, but people need to understand that the big three have significant problems that need fixing. we're not going to fix ANY of our fiscal problems until/unless we can speak frankly about the causes of those issues. And unions like UAW are a good example of a bad problem desperately in need of a fix.

Mercutio879: You treat your employees like crap, they will leave.

This is only true to some extent. A market like the current one is ripe for abuses because there aren't a lot of jobs available. This means that people will put up with a lot more shiat than the should have to in order to keep getting paid.

I think the UAW has outlived its usefulness in the extreme, but I feel that a lot of medical professionals need a union to protect themselves from overwork/under pay problems.

bronyaur1: I agree. The "slippery slope" argument is always useful to support extreme positions.

Whoa, whoa, whoa there, buddy. It may start out as a "slippery slope" argument, but before you know it people are killing each other.

All these plants are foreign owned. What this proves is that Americans are genetically incapable of running automobile plants. Look at the correlation, people!

hubiestubert: The shaving that a lot of writers' get for their work is tiny compared to the profit made by the publishing houses, and what they're trying to shove down writers' throats--Print on Demand, into perpetuity rights, assignation of copyright, on-line publishing, and more. It's worse for writers for TV and film, as they're getting scalped for on-line distribution and the studios are whistling all the way to the bank--more so in the music industry even.

Yeah, but the entertainment industry is in a weird situation. On one hand, entertainment conglomerates want to control information (or content, if you'd prefer) and force people to pay for it. But due to the structure of the internet it's impossible to control the flow of data. It goes around legal fictions and artifical blockades, and it's impossible to control. the corporations have to change the way they do business.

I think the guys down on the ground understand that, but the egos up in corporate fairyland are still clueless about life in the 21st century.

Here we go. Another union-bashing circle jerk.

I'd just like to point out that the cost of living in most southern cities is far lower than the cost of living in most northern cities. Maybe, just maybe, that has something to do with folks in the south not having too much need for unionized labor.

coco ebert: Here we go. Another union-bashing circle jerk.

that's ok, some of them need a little bashing and smashing. Unions need to evolve, just as business models have to adapt to a changing economy.

And it's totally worth putting 3 million people out of work so as to stiff the UAW.

You are all a pack of lying hypocritical coonts. Enjoy your depression, dickwads.

So would you whether work where what you can do is based upon your skills or your seniority.

Weaver95: Not that i'm excusing the automakers themselves for their farkups, but people need to understand that the big three have significant problems that need fixing.

I agree, Chrysler is being run by a company that has no business running it. GM got bit really badly by the high gas prices, and the amount of red tape in that company is so huge the Volt is minor miracle. I really think Ford will be okay, Mulally saw this coming and their product line, especially the European models they are bringing over, is quite good.

Weaver95: coco ebert: Here we go. Another union-bashing circle jerk.

that's ok, some of them need a little bashing and smashing. Unions need to evolve, just as business models have to adapt to a changing economy.

I agree, but I feel like a lot of the bashing on here is a general disdain for the working class and any type of policy that addresses the issue of class inequality in the US.

PacManDreaming: That only works as long as there are unions around. As soon as there are no more unions, you better believe those companies will go all "Wal-Mart" on their employees.

Hmmm, if there are no more unions, and employers start treating their employees badly, the workers could possibly *gasp* organize a new union to collectively bargain over working conditions and wages.

Unions are easily organized if there is a genuine need for collective bargaining. If there is insufficient need, they will not be formed. You don't need to keep unions around to motivate management to treat their workers well, you only need to keep the ability to unionize around.

Lundah: Wages you can live on
Paid vacations
Paid sick leave
Disability insurance
Worker's Comp.
Retirement plans
Health insurance
Employer paid life insurance

what are these things you speak of?

Weaver95: Yeah, but the entertainment industry is in a weird situation. On one hand, entertainment conglomerates want to control information (or content, if you'd prefer) and force people to pay for it. But due to the structure of the internet it's impossible to control the flow of data. It goes around legal fictions and artifical blockades, and it's impossible to control. the corporations have to change the way they do business.

I think the guys down on the ground understand that, but the egos up in corporate fairyland are still clueless about life in the 21st century.

They understand it just fine as a revenue source--mostly through advertising--but have tried that same lame excuse that they used with CDs and DVDs. "We can't pay you a decent percentage because the medium costs so much..." and now that the medium price has fallen to pennies, they still don't want to renegotiate the contracts, and are claiming being in the poor house for setting up a server farm to disseminate ad revenue generators.

You'll pardon me if I don't weep too loudly...

tchamber: And it's totally worth putting 3 million people out of work so as to stiff the UAW.

What happened in the senate this week was despicable, if the republicans want to have a chance in 2010, they need to stop this childishness.

So not only do the Red States benefit from the spreading of the wealth from the Blue States, but they also actively export wealth to foreigners and help them defeat American industries? Way to go Real Americans®.

If unions disappear, the question would be how long before employers revert backwards in their treatment of their employees?

Likewise, not all injustices that employers can do to their workers have been eliminated. For example, it's perfectly legal to fire someone who is GLBT in the vast majority of US states. That includes pretty much all Southeastern states.

bronyaur1 2008-12-13 12:18:41 PM
Southerners do their extortion a bit differently than the Detroit thugs have done.

No kidding. I lived in the South for a year, and found it to be rotten with scheming, thieving-ass crackers.

PacManDreaming: That only works as long as there are unions around.

True. I agree that many employers are not as benevolent as Wegmans. And the foreign manufactures with plants in the US, who pay decent wages simply to keep the unions out, would probably offer lower wages and benefits if the unions weren't there to keep them on their toes.

Still, as they have shown, if you want to keep unions out, treat your employees fairly. Don't give them a reason to organize. There are enough employers still who don't do this and will keep unions in business. Getting leaner wouldn't be the worst thing for some unions.

AirForceVet: If unions disappear, the question would be how long before employers revert backwards in their treatment of their employees?

Likewise, not all injustices that employers can do to their workers have been eliminated. For example, it's perfectly legal to fire someone who is GLBT in the vast majority of US states. That includes pretty much all Southeastern states.

Got a citation for that? That screams textbook discriminatory termination to be.

ilikeflowers: So not only do the Red States benefit from the spreading of the wealth from the Blue States, but they also actively export wealth to foreigners and help them defeat American industries? Way to go Real Americans®.

For manufacturing electronics for autos, last time I helped at Ford, they had 1 plant in the U.S. at Lansdale, PA, and 6 others outside the U.S. including in Canada and Mexico.

Mercutio879: tchamber: And it's totally worth putting 3 million people out of work so as to stiff the UAW.

What happened in the senate this week was despicable, if the republicans want to have a chance in 2010, they need to stop this childishness.

Union workers don't vote Republican.