Don't forget Mercedes is also in Alabama and VW is opening a plant near Chattanooga.

Sorry, I don't understand your attempted snark.

Chindit: Sorry, I don't understand your attempted snark.

Congresscritters whose constituencies include factories of foreign auto companies are not too fond of the Give Free Money To The CEOs Of The American Auto Companies Detroit Bailout plan.

King Something: Chindit: Sorry, I don't understand your attempted snark.

Congresscritters whose constituencies include factories of foreign auto companies are not too fond of the Give Free Money To The CEOs Of The American Auto Companies Detroit Bailout plan.

Why should they be in favor of it? They have a successful business model while the Big 3 are so stuck in a failed business model that the government will have to shell out billions to keep it propped up. They can go get farked as far as I am concerned.

Nabb1: King Something: Chindit: Sorry, I don't understand your attempted snark.

Congresscritters whose constituencies include factories of foreign auto companies are not too fond of the Give Free Money To The CEOs Of The American Auto Companies Detroit Bailout plan.

Why should they be in favor of it? They have a successful business model while the Big 3 are so stuck in a failed business model that the government will have to shell out billions to keep it propped up. They can go get farked as far as I am concerned.

wrong. Those states gave the foreign companies millions of tax dollars to build their plants there and make the politicians look good for bringing jobs to their state. The states having domestic manufacturing plants did not provide the American companies money for building their plants. This is pure hypocrisy.

And by the way, Ford sold more cars worldwide in 2007 (and every other year before that) than Honda and Nissan combined.

Well, actually, I did understand. I agree with my senator (Corker).
It just sounds to 'ol dumas southerners like me that we're writing checks on money we don't have and giving them to businesses that aren't working.

I admit it, 3 years ago I owned 2 Fords (a taurus and an exp) and a Dodge. I traded the fords and couldn't give the Dodge away.

This year, 2 Mazdas, a Nissan and a Kia.

Nabb1: King Something: Chindit: Sorry, I don't understand your attempted snark.

Congresscritters whose constituencies include factories of foreign auto companies are not too fond of the Give Free Money To The CEOs Of The American Auto Companies Detroit Bailout plan.

Why should they be in favor of it? They have a successful business model while the Big 3 are so stuck in a failed business model that the government will have to shell out billions to keep it propped up. They can go get farked as far as I am concerned.

Hey, don't get me wrong, I'm also against it. The Big 3 can EABOD and DIAF.

It's just that they may be getting free money for failing miserably simply because they're American companies. If it was the other way around - GM, Ford and Chrysler selling reliable, inexpensive, fuel-efficient vehicles while Honda, Toyota, Nissan, BMW, Mercedes and Volkswagen were selling unreliable, overpriced gas-guzzlers - you can bet your bottom dollar Washington would have unanimously passed a bill, signed into law months ago, telling those foreign car companies to go get farked.

ricewater_stool: wrong. Those states gave the foreign companies millions of tax dollars to build their plants there and make the politicians look good for bringing jobs to their state.

Gonna need some citations there. Yes, these deals often include massive tax breaks running for a number of years, but if the economic benefit of a major auto manufacturing facility balances that out, so what? Is that not up to the voters of those states to decide what is right or wrong? And could the Big 3 not have done the same? (Rhetorical question - with the UAW, no way in hell.) You can't argue that the relationship does not at least appear to be mutually beneficial to the states and the manufacturers that have done this.

The states having domestic manufacturing plants did not provide the American companies money for building their plants. This is pure hypocrisy.

When? A century ago when Ford started manufacturing in Michigan? So what?

And by the way, Ford sold more cars worldwide in 2007 (and every other year before that) than Honda and Nissan combined.

Great. Where did all that money go?

Chindit: This year, 2 Mazdas, a Nissan and a Kia.

So basically, two Fords. Gotcha.

(If you don't believe me, check some of those parts under the hood and compare them to Ford parts from a similar model vehicle.)

Nabb1: Why should they be in favor of it? They have a successful business model while the Big 3 are so stuck in a failed business model that the government will have to shell out billions to keep it propped up. They can go get farked as far as I am concerned.

You are aware that foreign automakers are receiving bailouts of their own from their federal governments, right?

Subby probably works for a union, and is shocked, SHOCKED, that the rest of us aren't just going to bend over and take it up the ass so he can keep his $95/hr job being deputy assistant floor sweeping manager.

/you'll get over it.
//or you'll get a real job.

dj4aces: You are aware that foreign automakers are receiving bailouts of their own from their federal governments, right?

Whom? And what divisions? For a myriad of reasons, many foreign companies keep their North American operations separate from the home company.

dj4aces: Chindit: This year, 2 Mazdas, a Nissan and a Kia.

So basically, two Fords. Gotcha.

(If you don't believe me, check some of those parts under the hood and compare them to Ford parts from a similar model vehicle.)



Nabb1: Why should they be in favor of it? They have a successful business model while the Big 3 are so stuck in a failed business model that the government will have to shell out billions to keep it propped up. They can go get farked as far as I am concerned.

You are aware that foreign automakers are receiving bailouts of their own from their federal governments, right?


The Ford Mustang and Mazda 6 are assembled in the same plant in Flat Rock, MI. And the foreign carmakers are definitely subsidized by their own governments.

Here's the difference in the Mazdas; Both are 2007, both bought new, both with 5 yr bumper to bumper warranties. My Mazda dealer really, and I mean this, is interested in me and my bid'ness. They do NOT overcharge for service, they change oil cheaper than a jiffyLube and clean them while they have them, now get this, as a SERVICE!! I liked the old Taurus, it was a 99 I bought new but the Expedition, although it could pull a house off it's foundation was a POS. My local Ford dealer cared not a whit for me, my time or my vehicles.

I have 4 cars, and I want to know tomorrow, when my kids pack up and come home from school in (perhaps) bad weather, their cars will carry them safely. Same for my wife. My Nissan on the other hand is a 92 240sx convertible, no roll bar, no air bags. It goes fast. yes, I'm over 50.

Chindit: My local Ford dealer cared not a whit for me, my time or my vehicles.

That's a problem with the stealership, not with the company itself. You would think the company would prod the owner(s) of said stealership to "get right," but that didn't happen.

You also missed the point. Ford and Mazda are the same car, in a lot of cases. So by saying you ditched the Fords for Mazdas is similar to saying you ditched a Toyota for a Lexus.

No, I understood the point you were making. But, what difference does it make to me if Ford and Mazda are assembled in the same building when I buy a new Mazda3 that my daughter likes more than a Ford, for actually less money than a new ford from a dealership (I like that stealership- excellent) that remembers my name several months later? I've bought a bunch of cars in the last 35 years, most of them new.

I can't solve much of anything, but I know when I spend 24000 for a station wagon (Mazda 7) I want someone to care... like the guy that sold it. And his company.

ricewater_stool: And by the way, Ford sold more cars worldwide in 2007 (and every other year before that) than Honda and Nissan combined.

Um, fail. Quit listening to propaganda and learn to do a little research.

Car sales 2007:

Ford: 5,964,000

Honda: 3,831,000
Nissan: 3,675.574
Total: 7,506,574

Secondly, since Ford is doing so much more volume than either Nissan or Honda individually, they should have a higher profit margin per car due to economies of scale. They don't because of decades of bad union contracts and awful management practices.

The big three should have to go through bankruptcy, void the union contracts, and then start over leaner and healthier. They should also move out of Michigan to a more business friendly state.

Nabb1: Whom? And what divisions? For a myriad of reasons, many foreign companies keep their North American operations separate from the home company.

it was pointed out yesterday that Japan has basically built a firewalled between Japanese automakers and the Japanese stock market in ways that allow those companies to not to have to worry about short-term profitability and shareholders.

ricewater_stool: And by the way, Ford sold more cars worldwide in 2007 (and every other year before that) than Honda and Nissan combined.

Then why can't Ford turn a profit?

I'm not saying this because of this issue in particular, but I just look at McConnell and all I can think is "snivelling weasle."

From another thread:

"Another element of the distinctive Japanese economic style was the insulation of major companies from short-term financial pressures. Members of the Japanese keiretsu- groups of allied firms organized around a main bank- typically owned substancial quantities of each other's shares, making management largely independent of outside stockholders. Nor did Japanese companies worry much about stock prices, or market confidence, since they rarely financed themselves by selling either stocks or bonds. So Japanese firms didn't have to worry about short-term profitability, or indeed much about profitability at all.

...The result of this system, claimed both those who admired and those who feared it, was a country able to take the long view."

~Paul Krugman, pg 59-60, The Return of Depression Economics

Now, Krugman also points out that this lead to many problems for them later on; however, it also has brought them a competitive advantage in many instances.

But it also points out how the Auto industry in general is not as "free market" as anyone wants to make it out to be. The simple fact is that Detroit has lobbied and played defensive strategies for years at the same time Japan has used their government to push their industries also.

Further,

Detroit Gives back after Hurricane Katrina Link (new window)

Sweden Gives their autos billions in aid Link (new window)

Farkers beloved Tesla asks for aid Link (new window)

German auto makers major benifiary in aid package. May also receive their own bailout on top. Link (new window)

China's auto industry asks for bailout. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/worldbusiness/19chinaauto.html?_r=1 (sorry, Fark hates NYT links)

Japanese Autos use same parts suppliers, warn that collapse of Big 3 could devistate them and raise prices Link (new window)

Honda CEO: "It is totally proper for the U.S. government to help out U.S. automakers," Takeo Fukui told reporters in Tokyo Link (new window)

And I know this next one is a wikipedia link, but it explains the trade and company structure of most of the major Japanese firms: Link (new window). Basically, they are trade monopolies that would be broken up by US anti-trust laws that are allowed to break into and dominate foreign markets.

I do not even begin to claim to understand what is going on with all the taxes we submit being given to companies that cannot make a profit. There are a few things I understand and one thing I have noticed.
1. Me and my wife work hard. We make a decent living supporting our family in a comfortable manner. We are not overpaid for what we do and work harder to make more money. If we worked this much and could not pay the bills we would likely be on welfare. However, if we did exactly what we do now and could not cover our expenses we would be doing something else.
2. Our taxes are to supply us as citizens of this country with certain expected things like law enforcement, public works such as sewers and water. Giving them to large companies that cannot make a profit because if we don't it will ruin the USA is a lie and IMHO a misappropriation of funds. The USA is NOT just auto workers. It is NOT just large financial institutions. The government is siphoning off the future financial stability of this country to prop up failing businesses and their overpaid constituency.
3. I've been reading these articles and comments for a while now. Someone always starts in on the union being the problem and that they are overpaid workers that don't deserve their paycheck. I never see anyone (union or non) say that this is not true. In carpentry, crappy tract housing gets built by union labor. Quality custom homes get built by non-union craftsmen. Unions IMHO are so someone that would rather talk than actually work can make good money in the name of protecting the rights of workers. Union reps are weasels that make their living off the backs of other peoples labor. The more money they get for their union, the more money they make. I am sure they see it as hard work but it is not. It is profiting off something that is not theirs. If the company they hold hostage goes belly up because they are too greedy to agree to honest pay for honest work then my taxes should not be used to maintain that sort of behavior.
3. I am ready to fight for this belief. Our government is ripping us off as tax payers and we need to stop it.

here's what I have noticed, I haven't got a clue how to stop it. Voting is just choosing the lesser of two evils to me. Both sides will sell out our country for their own causes IMO. Corruption and evil deeds fall on both sides of the fence now.

I read this description earlier today about some technology that can be used to invade our privacy and is being sold as a good thing. "it's like in the movie, when they guy gets into the cab with the bad guy. He notices the driver has missed the turn and says "hey you missed my turn". The driver says nothing. Then the guy starts feeling that fear that bad things are going to happen and it's too late to do anything." That's how I feel about our country right now.

TehBoognish:

7 myths about Detroit Autos: Link (new window)

Myth No. 7: Their union workers are lazy and overpaid

Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.

The oft-cited $70-an-hour wage and benefit figure for UAW workers inaccurately adds benefits that millions of retirees get to the pay of current workers, but divides the total only by current employees. That's like assuming you get your parents' retirement and Social Security benefits in addition to your own income.

Hourly pay for assembly line workers tops out around $28; benefits add about $14. New hires at the Detroit Three get $14 an hour. There's no pension or health care when they retire, but benefits raise their total hourly compensation to $29 while they're working. UAW wages are now comparable with Toyota workers, according to a Free Press analysis.

Unions are not the problem. Your criticism of union leaders amounts to saying we shouldn't have lawyers because people can just do the law on their own and lawyers are just abusing people and doing nothing. The reality is that yes, the system can and has been abused. However, it occurs on both sides of the company: management and labor. It appalls me that people are upset that workers are fighting for better wages- something we all do.

In all reality management built the cars Americans wanted: big SUVs and trucks. Building and selling cars was unprofitable. (It was profitable for Toyota because that was what they sold worldwide and in their domestic market).

For the past 20 years if they had built only small cars, Americans would have been furious. So instead engineering and design was located in bigger vehicles. Economists debated for years how much gas would have to go up to have an effect on vehicle sales. We learned that this year.

So we all learned a lesson.

TehBoognish: I do not even begin to claim to understand what is going on with all the taxes we submit being givenloaned to companies that cannot make a profiton the condition that they take steps to become profitable so they can pay us back with interest.

You need to look at this a little differently. Is there any guarantee we'll get our money back? No. If half of industry fails will we become a massive unemployment welfare state with little tax revenue to support it? Probably. There just aren't many pleasant options here. Hopefully breaking the backs of the UAW will be one of the positive outcomes and will result in a stronger comeback.

One thing that I love seeing in a lot of these threads is the fact that there are people out there who think that the solution to all of our economic woes are to simply get rid of labor unions and let the employees fend for themselves.

sloppy shoes: Reality: Chrysler tied Toyota as the most productive automaker in North America this year, according to the Harbour Report on manufacturing, which measures the amount of work done per employee. Eight of the 10 most productive vehicle assembly plants in North America belong to Chrysler, Ford or GM.

You should read the report that is based on (pops)(pdf), it's a pretty cooked view of productivity. For example, if Chrysler moves production of a part out of its factory to a supplier while Toyota still builds it in-house, it counts as a productivity gain at Chrysler because it takes "fewer" Chrysler workers to build the same car. As far as the salary figures go, they just changed the rules regarding which type of workers can be included in the study.

But employee pay isn't the biggest problem. Of course the overly generous pensions of the past count against the bottom line today. You can't say it doesn't count, it's part of the package. And if you need a bolt turned God forbid you pick up a wrench before 3rd mechanical supervisor Jones can get around to it. And if the biggest farkup on the floor can't be fired because he has more years than the leanest go getter, tough.

I'm not completely anti-union, but these guys are an anchor in today's global market.

Stubby is right, the Dem-o-rats are spending like there is no tomorrow.

Good by Dollar

Too bad for Mitch that there's the Corvette plant here in Bowling Green, and the people here may not be too happy with him.

Not that I was happy with him anyway.

So, what is subby's point? Isn't this how things are supposed to work? The congressmen are representing their constituent's wishes in Washington. I honestly don't see the problem here.

You wouldn't buy craptacular our cars, so we're gonna TAKE your money via gov't bailout. Screw you, hippies!

Shelby didn't vote for the 700 billion give-away either so this is no surprise.

Are Toyota, Mercedes, BMW, or any other car company asking the US taxpayer for a bailout?

That's just un-American!


/these Senators must be terrorists!

What's funny is that Ford/GM moved factories overseas because it's too expensive to pay UAW workers, meanwhile Toyota and Honda have moved factories here and provided Americans with jobs and SUPERIOR CARS.

Mitch McConnell reminds me of Mason Verger



/smug bastard

Shelby needs to run for President in 2012. He is one of the few remaining conservatives left in Congress.

SkittlesAreYum: So, what is subby's point?

Government using public money for private business is bad unless it's for companies that do business in our state.

lexnaturalis: ricewater_stool: And by the way, Ford sold more cars worldwide in 2007 (and every other year before that) than Honda and Nissan combined.

Then why can't Ford turn a profit? I was thinking the same thing.

ricewater_stool: And by the way, Ford sold more cars worldwide in 2007 (and every other year before that) than Honda and Nissan combined.

And they still couldn't turn enough of a profit to stave off potential bankruptcy without a government bailout? Wow, they suck even worse than I thought.

700 billion bailout to financial companies:

McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Corker (R-TN), Yea


Shelby (R-AL), Nay


yea fark McConnell and Corker.

/at least shelby is consistent.

Semi-Sane: Shelby needs to run for President in 2012. He is one of the few remaining conservatives left in Congress.

The tough part will be getting the Republicans to WANT a conservative.

So it's wrong to be against throwing money away if you represent a state that has successful companies that don't need to be bailed out? Subby is a farking idiot.

HeyHi: 700 billion bailout to financial companies:

McConnell (R-KY), Yea
Corker (R-TN), Yea


Shelby (R-AL), Nay


yea fark McConnell and Corker.

/at least shelby is consistent.

Indeed. Wall St. Gets $700 Billion but hard working Americans can't get a LOAN for $14 B?

Shelby was also against the $850bn check paid out a month ago.

It looks like the only thing the good ol' USA is good at producing these days are farktard anti-union jackasses who don't give a rat's ass about their fellow Americans.

I'm not sure we can win a race to the bottom but kudos for pushing us to try.

Blathering Idjut: It looks like the only thing the good ol' USA is good at producing these days are farktard anti-union jackasses who don't give a rat's ass about their fellow Americans.

I'm not sure we can win a race to the bottom but kudos for pushing us to try.

We're supposed to have economic freedom. The freedom of competition. If you can't compete and STILL mismanage your company, FARK YOU AND FILE CHAPTER 11!

I couldn't care less about the union workers. They had plenty of opportunity to find another line of work.

Blathering Idjut: It looks like the only thing the good ol' USA is good at producing these days are farktard anti-union jackasses who don't give a rat's ass about their fellow Americans.

Are you union by chance?

I think that the American Car companies make good cars, the only problem is that they are not too jazzed up, and they don't make very many good small cars that are good on gas, which the foreign companies are good at. I drive a Honda Civic and get 40 mpg, but I would rather have a fast Mustang, a Chevy truck, or a Chrystler 300. I am just practical and don't have the money to get a second car yet.

Also the American cars from the 50s 60s and 70s are good cars and can be bought for cheap and fixed up. You can't get better quality for less money. You will pay alot for gas though.

/Drove a 72 Cutlass in Highschool
//10 MPG
///Great car.

The one thing I want to know about the foreign auto companies is what their legacy costs will be 30 years from now compared to what the big 3 is now.

Most of the foreign auto plants opened in the mid-80's and later which means just about every person ever hired who was under 40 at the time is still not eligible for retirement.