I thought Ron Paul was smart ... weird. I guess we shouldn't expect our politicians to know what "nationalization" means.

Oh, good, another thread to bash somebody who speaks ideas different than the sheeple that assume the crap fed to them by the MSM is all true.

Nationalization? LOL WUT?

I didn't know Ron Paul was such a retard.

i love talking in broad generalizations with vague applications of scary sounding words too! this nationalization is just a start, wait until that socialist obama gets in there and really starts spreading the wealth around.

Anyone else feeling this is eerily similar to events in Atlas Shrugged?

*facepalm*

Really, we're nationalizing the auto industry? He's dumber than I thought. Seriously, this guy is a financial genius and he doesn't even know what nationalizing an industry is?

benlonghair: Oh, good, another thread to bash somebody who speaks ideas different than the sheeple that assume the crap fed to them by the MSM is all true.

hey, he said it. he said "nationalization." the MSM didn't feed him that word. now he's shown he's not the genius you guys thought he was, but a typical lunatic like we all knew he was.

MSM ... heh. the only reason to be scared of the MSM is if you're too dumb to determine what's news and what's bias. it's not difficult for most.

We should have elected this guy.

RON PAUL!!!

GAT_00: *facepalm*

Really, we're nationalizing the auto industry? He's dumber than I thought. Seriously, this guy is a financial genius and he doesn't even know what nationalizing an industry is?

Well..let's see. The Fed gives them money and then puts a Car Czar, Federal Employee, in charge of the car companies and everything that is connected to them. Sounds like nationalization to me. I must be one of those stupid non-liberals.

if we were nationalizing, we would actually own and control them.

GaryPDX: We should have elected this guy.

RON PAUL!!!

totally, i mean if we're going to have an economic meltdown, we might as well go all out and have our president work us back to a pre-industrialized economy

I think the part that shows his stupidity is "There's no real talk about it." Really? Then why has it been in the news for weeks on end?

burndtdan: if we were nationalizing, we would actually own and control them.

hmm..The Fed gives them money and the Car Czar controls them. hmmm. What's that again?

Do you guys really want to buy a car from Congress?

GaryPDX: hmm..The Fed gives them money and the Car Czar controls them. hmmm. What's that again?

Do you guys really want to buy a car from Congress?

congressional oversight /= government control. congress subsidizes and creates mandates for many industries. have they nationalized those too?

We are so farked.

burndtdan: if we were nationalizing, we would actually own and control them.

I swear, Bush and this Congress can't do ANYTHING right.

In all seriousness, why are we giving - or, "loaning" (yeah, right, kind of like "loaning" money to that deadbeat cousin who constantly hits you up for an "investment" in whatever scheme he's got cooked up) - money to the Big 3 and saying, "You better make some changes"? Let's see some changes then they can get money. Step 1: dismissal of their CEOs. Step 2: Resignation of the current heads of UAW and dissolution of the current CBA, to be replaced by a CBA arbitrated by the NLRB.

WaltzingMathilda: hey, he said it. he said "nationalization." the MSM didn't feed him that word. now he's shown he's not the genius you guys thought he was, but a typical lunatic like we all knew he was.

Nationalization: to bring under the ownership or control of a nation, as industries and land: a movement to nationalize the oil industry.

With this much money being 'loaned' to them, and a 'car czar' what would YOU call it? Sounds like the government is taking a hand in running the auto companies. That, sir, is nationalization.

WaltzingMathilda: if you're too dumb to determine what's news and what's bias. it's not difficult for most.

You're an idiot if you think there's unbiased news available.

GaryPDX: burndtdan: if we were nationalizing, we would actually own and control them.

hmm..The Fed gives them money and the Car Czar controls them. hmmm. What's that again?

Do you guys really want to buy a car from Congress?

the oversight is not to control their business, but to make sure the money loaned to them is used for the purposes for which they dragged their asses before congress and begged for it. you aren't that stupid, as much as it pains me to admit.

thomps: congressional oversight /= government control

Either they have control or they don't. Oversight doesn't mean shiat if they can't change problems they see. So either the plan is entirely useless or they're going to control the auto makers. It's one or the other.

benlonghair: Either they have control or they don't. Oversight doesn't mean shiat if they can't change problems they see. So either the plan is entirely useless or they're going to control the auto makers. It's one or the other.

it must be nice to live in such a binary world.

benlonghair: WaltzingMathilda: hey, he said it. he said "nationalization." the MSM didn't feed him that word. now he's shown he's not the genius you guys thought he was, but a typical lunatic like we all knew he was.

Nationalization: to bring under the ownership or control of a nation, as industries and land: a movement to nationalize the oil industry.

With this much money being 'loaned' to them, and a 'car czar' what would YOU call it? Sounds like the government is taking a hand in running the auto companies. That, sir, is nationalization.

WaltzingMathilda: if you're too dumb to determine what's news and what's bias. it's not difficult for most.

You're an idiot if you think there's unbiased news available.

see my post above. we've loaned money before, and we profited. what chavez did to the oil industry, THAT is nationalization.

and you're an idiot if you get your news from blogs or waiting 20 years for a respected encyclopedia to get the facts right.

MSM ... a reason to ignore people.

I maintain that they should be allowed to fail. That's the consequence of failing to see the future. And they could have done it, toyota did.

We have already allowed them a pass. They shouldn't get another. That's my problem. This might not be true nationalization, but it's closer to that than capitalism.

One thing it is for sure is a move away from personal (and corporate) responsibility. That's bad.

benlonghair: I maintain that they should be allowed to fail. That's the consequence of failing to see the future. And they could have done it, toyota did.

We have already allowed them a pass. They shouldn't get another. That's my problem. This might not be true nationalization, but it's closer to that than capitalism.

One thing it is for sure is a move away from personal (and corporate) responsibility. That's bad.

That's fine but your issue speaks to something wholly different than nationalism. Rather, you're beef is that "the government should not provide risky strings-attached loans to industries that employ large numbers of Americans in a really bad economy for the sake of saving the economy."

I'm not advocating the "loan," but I will make fun of legislators who equate it to nationalism. Last I checked the National Guard hasn't dropped into Detroit to seize the plants and start making better cars.

benlonghair: I maintain that they should be allowed to fail. That's the consequence of failing to see the future. And they could have done it, toyota did.

We have already allowed them a pass. They shouldn't get another. That's my problem. This might not be true nationalization, but it's closer to that than capitalism.

One thing it is for sure is a move away from personal (and corporate) responsibility. That's bad.

sure it's not laizzes fair capitalism and should not be done lightly, but nor is it without precedence in our country. we may argue over whether it is a good or bad idea, but we should both be able to agree that running around screaming "NATIONALIZATION OMG" is silly.

WaltzingMathilda: I'm not advocating the "loan," but I will make fun of legislators who equate it to nationalism. Last I checked the National Guard hasn't dropped into Detroit to seize the plants and start making better cars.

But...but...RON PAUL!

I am curious, which of you guys are going to buy a car from the government? I'm not.

GaryPDX: I am curious, which of you guys are going to buy a car from the government? I'm not.

i'm curious, what proposal have you read that outlines the government manufacturing and selling cars?

GaryPDX: I am curious, which of you guys are going to buy a car from the government? I'm not.

Where is the government selling cars? I am also curious.

They forgot the rest of the quote:

"By the way, Jesus and I are going for a spacesship ride and I'm smearing peanut butter in my pockets with a handi-wipe to make me invisible on Gaydar."

Just because a crazy person says something lucid occasionally doesn't make them not crazy anymore.

ok, this is getting silly. thomps, take over.

GaryPDX: The Fed gives them money and the Car Czar controls them.

a loan != buying out their investors, and the car czar has highly restricted authority.

we do not own them, and we do not actually control them. as in, we do not have a federal employee sitting in the CEO chair, calling the shots, and reporting to congress who is the new board of directors.

Nabb1: I swear, Bush and this Congress can't do ANYTHING right.

you're right on that. what they WANT to do is nationalize, but they don't have the balls to do it. so they're basically giving a loan to someone with horrible credit.

burndtdan: if we were nationalizing, we would actually own and control them.

And get the money from their profits, if there were any.

WaltzingMathilda: the oversight is not to control their business, but to make sure the money loaned to them is used for the purposes for which they dragged their asses before congress and begged for it.

Just like the feds weren't going to purchase actual shares in the financial corporations.

Yet, they did.

The morons in this country keep assuming that Congress is going to act in a responsible manner, when history has shown that they'll act in the most controlling, irresponsible manner possible.

I guess the scariest part is, as citizens who value liberty, we should be fighting against the government trying to circumvent the laws of finace. They may not be nationalizing the auto industry, but they're kind of inching their way over toward it, and nobody says anything about it.

We should be angry about this. We should be angry about the financial industry bailout. We should be forcing recall elections to get these bums (who, for the most part, have never held a real job in their lives) out of Washington and get real leadership in there.

But that's crazy talk.

SchlingFocker: WaltzingMathilda: the oversight is not to control their business, but to make sure the money loaned to them is used for the purposes for which they dragged their asses before congress and begged for it.

Just like the feds weren't going to purchase actual shares in the financial corporations.

Yet, they did.

The morons in this country keep assuming that Congress is going to act in a responsible manner, when history has shown that they'll act in the most controlling, irresponsible manner possible.

It was part of the loan structure. Equity was the best way for them to assure repayment. You think they're going to nationalize banking? You're high.

I love Fark ... lots of economists.

benlonghair: I guess the scariest part is, as citizens who value liberty, we should be fighting against the government trying to circumvent the laws of finace. They may not be nationalizing the auto industry, but they're kind of inching their way over toward it, and nobody says anything about it.

We should be angry about this. We should be angry about the financial industry bailout. We should be forcing recall elections to get these bums (who, for the most part, have never held a real job in their lives) out of Washington and get real leadership in there.

But that's crazy talk.

Sounds like you are mad. If we don't act during this economic crisis, the country fails. See you in the breadlines, comrade. I, for one, am looking forward to partying like it's 1935. Hey, maybe we can compete for fruit pickin' jobs out Californee-way when your plan to not "loan" money to the nation's largest industries is implemented.

All this talk of "bailout" and "ownership" ... who's listening to the MSM now? It's a loan ... plain and simple. We've done it before, we got a 25% return. Sounds pretty capitalistic to me.

From another thread:

"Another element of the distinctive Japanese economic style was the insulation of major companies from short-term financial pressures. Members of the Japanese keiretsu- groups of allied firms organized around a main bank- typically owned substancial quantities of each other's shares, making management largely independent of outside stockholders. Nor did Japanese companies worry much about stock prices, or market confidence, since they rarely financed themselves by selling either stocks or bonds. So Japanese firms didn't have to worry about short-term profitability, or indeed much about profitability at all.

...The result of this system, claimed both those who admired and those who feared it, was a country able to take the long view."

~Paul Krugman, pg 59-60, The Return to Depression Economics

Now, Krugman also points out that this lead to many problems for them later on; however, it also has brought them a competitive advantage in many instances.

But it also points out how the Auto industry in general is not as "free market" as anyone wants to make it out to be. The simple fact is that Detroit has lobbied and played defensive strategies for years at the same time Japan has used their government to push their industries also.

Ah, fascism!

sloppy shoes: ...The result of this system, claimed both those who admired and those who feared it, was a country able to take the long view."

god, i would love it if our system allowed for executives to look past the next quarter's earnings. although i don't envy the incestuous banking system that caused it.

sloppy shoes: Paul Krugman

Krugman posted lolcats yesterday ... therefore, I am unable to read anything he says ever again.

Further,

Detroit Gives back after Hurricane Katrina Link (new window)

Sweden Gives their autos billions in aid Link (new window)

Farkers beloved Tesla asks for aid Link (new window)

German auto makers major benifiary in aid package. May also receive their own bailout on top. Link (new window)

China's auto industry asks for bailout. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/worldbusiness/19chinaauto.html?_r=1 (sorry, Fark hates NYT links)

Japanese Autos use same parts suppliers, warn that collapse of Big 3 could devistate them and raise prices Link (new window)

Honda CEO: "It is totally proper for the U.S. government to help out U.S. automakers," Takeo Fukui told reporters in Tokyo Link (new window)

And I know this next one is a wikipedia link, but it explains the trade and company structure of most of the major Japanese firms: Link (new window). Basically, they are trade monopolies that would be broken up by US anti-trust laws that are allowed to break into and dominate foreign markets.

benlonghair: Oh, good, another thread to bash somebody who speaks ideas different than the sheeple that assume the crap fed to them by the MSM is all true.

Yes, but you know the truth don't you. You aren't one of those sheeple people. You have been chosen to see the truth that the MSM is afraid for you to see.

Thank you for existing. Its a better world now.

In my mind I keep substituting Gandalf in for Ron Paul.

benlonghair: I guess the scariest part is, as citizens who value liberty, we should be fighting against the government trying to circumvent the laws of finace. They may not be nationalizing the auto industry, but they're kind of inching their way over toward it, and nobody says anything about it.

We should be angry about this. We should be angry about the financial industry bailout. We should be forcing recall elections to get these bums (who, for the most part, have never held a real job in their lives) out of Washington and get real leadership in there.

But that's crazy talk.

Idealism is awesome, especially when you're standing in a soup line.

benlonghair: Oh, good, another thread to bash somebody who speaks ideas different than the sheeple that assume the crap fed to them by the MSM is all true.

The bailout apparently creates a Moran Hazard.

sloppy shoes: Japanese Autos use same parts suppliers, warn that collapse of Big 3 could devistate them and raise prices Link (new window)

I guess asking them to pony up a few shekels for their own good is out, then? ;)

WaltzingMathilda: All this talk of "bailout" and "ownership" ... who's listening to the MSM now? It's a loan ... plain and simple. We've done it before, we got a 25% return. Sounds pretty capitalistic to me.

Last I heard, it's not a simple loan:

The auto czar also would have veto power over any transactions exceeding $100 million by the companies while the loans were outstanding. Washington would receive ownership stakes in the companies.

That could be considered nationalization. It's certainly more nationalization-esque, with increased levels of nationalizationosity.