Oddly enough,that's kind of true. The American auto industry was built on planned obsolescence. Car fell apart quite rapidly and the auto companies were quite happy. Then, some joker let the Japanese in and suddenly the bar was raised quite high. The American engineers and management never quite could stop squabbling about how reliable the car should be ( it's a matter of tolerances, and not bankrupting your suppliers ) and the rest is history.

And the fact that they make these kind of excuses instead of adjusting their bloated management pay and ranks ( something like 10 more levels of management than the Japanese ) shows they are incapable of running their companies. Put 'em down now, it's the best way for the future. Do you want to be supporting Waggoner, Nardelli, and whatshisface's country club lifestyle? I don't

If they're so damn good, why do the big three have less than half of the US car market?

American car company to japanese supplier "I want 10,000 of these brake systems delivered by next month, and only 1.5% can be defective"

Japanese supplier to american car company "Here are your brake systems. We have no idea why you would want 1.5% defective units, but for your convenience, we've packaged them separately"

DeadZone: If they're so damn good, why do the big three have less than half of the US car market?

I like how he dodged the question about why he shouldn't be fired.

"it's up to the board of directors." Um, yeah - but that wasn't the damn question you slimy git.

Bob Nardelli ruined Home Depot before he left. Why would we expect Chrysler to fare any better?

repost
UAW offers concessions to Big Three automakers.
Two weeks after insisting his union had already done enough to help the car makers, UAW President Ron Gettelfinger said the union would allow the companies to delay billions of dollars in payments into funds that will cover health-care costs for retired workers.

to

"As Washington clashes over a Big Three bailout, it's ignoring the best cure to the automakers' ills: Universal healthcare."
GM spends an average $72 an hour on labor, including wages, health benefits and pensions. Non-union Toyota plants spend $42 an hour. Toyota hasn't been building cars here long enough to be stuck with the hospital bills of nonagenarian retirees. The company has plenty of elderly veterans back home -- the Japanese are the longest-lived people in the world -- but guess who pays for healthcare in Japan? The Japanese government. As a result of providing its workers with health benefits that everyone in this country should be getting, American automakers pay over $2,000 more in labor costs on every car they make. The best way to overcome a nut like that is to build big vehicles that you can sell for a big profit.

Were Detroit automakers shortsighted? Absolutely. As shortsighted as a 21-year-old who drops out of engineering school and takes a job in a warehouse to support his ailing parents. American automakers sacrificed innovation to keep building SUVs and trucks that would pay their legacy costs right away.

The strongest opposition to an auto industry bailout isn't coming from environmentalists. It's coming from free-market conservatives who see burying Detroit as an opportunity to bury the United Auto Workers and the entire union movement. Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama called the auto industry a "dinosaur" and suggested government aid would only delay its well-deserved demise. "Companies fail every day and others take their place," Shelby said. "I think this is a road we should not go down."
---------------------

Party Boy: American automakers sacrificed innovation to keep building SUVs and trucks that would pay their legacy costs right away.

related

Top selling cars in Britain
1. Ford Focus 126,928
2. (GM) Vauxhall Astra 113,894
3. Ford Fiesta 102,872
4. (GM)Vauxhall Corsa 94,120
5. Volkswagen Golf 68,843
6. Peugeot 207 67,185
7. BMW 3 Series 58,544
8. Renault Mégane 55,468
9. Renault Clio 53,907
10. (GM)Vauxhall Vectra 50,983

My car just rolled over 100k miles, and its only now broken-in. Sorry Detroit, you built your business model on a ponzi scheme of people trading in their cars faster than they needed to, and have sucked up to the unions for decades. Die, die, die, and get out of the way.

/VW FTW.

Apparently the Chinese love Buicks.

Bob Nardelli the destoyer of Economic value added

As if anyone needed more evidence that these guys are delusional.

Good to see Tardelli running Chrysler into the ground.

I'm Wolf Blitzer. You're in the SITUATION ROOM*echoes*

Damn you, you Simonizing bastards!

Robert Nardelli is a farking overpaid idiot. He needs to be fired and then fed to the dogs of the hardworking employees who's jobs he put in jeopardy..

He got over $200million as a parting bonus for basically doing nothing with Home Depot - stock price remained flat during his time..fark him.. and fark Chrysler for hiring him.

/Though.. I'm biased because I used to work at Home Depot in college and now I drive a Jeep (Chrysler).

Nardelli, fark you. My Jeep is about the best thing your company makes and it still has some horrible flaws... like.. I had to either spend $700 to get a new GPS unit because the goddamn joystick was a piece of shiat and it failed (something happening to most Chrysler GPS units made in 2005) and Chrysler refused a recall.. or, I had to go on the Internet and find plans for replacing the joystick myself. Eight hours of soldering using my own valuable time and I had a working GPS unit again.

Again, fark you.

And when an American car starts performing like shiat after 50K, everybody decides, "fark this, I'm buying a Honda."

aiiee: And the fact that they make these kind of excuses instead of adjusting their bloated management pay and ranks ( something like 10 more levels of management than the Japanese ) shows they are incapable of running their companies. Put 'em down now, it's the best way for the future. Do you want to be supporting Waggoner, Nardelli, and whatshisface's country club lifestyle? I don't

What percentage do you think the CEO's salaries are to the amount of money the car makers owe/lose?

You're one of those morons who wants to axe NASA because they take up like 50% of the budget in your mind, aren't you?

I love my Honda Civic

When I get a new car I've told people I want two things: Fuel efficiency and foreign built. Why the last one? Because I want my car to last. Maybe if Detroit had actually made a car that was quality I would feel some sympathy for them...

ultraholland: Apparently the Chinese love Buicks.

The chinese buy obsolete equipment from european and american manufacturers and use it to build "New" 1990's models for pennies on the dollar.

Too bad no citizens can afford to buy em

My family had three Corsica's over the span of 10 years. All three had their transmissions go out at 60k.

woohoo American Car companies.

Wrong_Intentions: And when an American car starts performing like shiat after 50K, everybody decides, "fark this, I'm buying a Honda."

Yes, then they get 250k out of a Honda, and then Honda has a lifelong customer.

ManRay: Bob Nardelli ruined Home Depot before he left. Why would we expect Chrysler to fare any better?

So HE'S the reason. I wondered what happened to Home Depot.

Um, longevity is one thing.

How about reliability, usability, serviceability, cost of operation, standardization, etc.?

This is an industry that thinks "OnStar" is innovation.

Making cars that don't suck has never been a workable business plan. I mean, it never worked for Toyota, Honda or BMW, has it?

Unions, Unions, Unions ... that's the answer that almost everyone gives for the failing auto industry.

Yet they fail to recall several important points ... every time the unions cave in on a wage deal, the management gets huge bonuses. 1980, UAW gave wage concessions amounting to a pay cut of $3.00 per hour for new employees, and those returning from a long term layoff (more than one year). Every manager from Foremen on up got $5,000 or more in bonuses. 1992 retiree benefits were cut, managers got a bonus, including retired managers.

I will admit that many of the hourly workers at US auto plants are making too much money for their education level, but I insist that you lump in the salaried workers too. Most of them are not even needed and they all make too much money.

J-Fish: When I get a new car I've told people I want two things: Fuel efficiency and foreign built. Why the last one? Because I want my car to last. Maybe if Detroit had actually made a car that was quality I would feel some sympathy for them...

well most GMC and Fords are made in Mexico.
while most Hondas and Toyotas i know are made in the States.

funny that

You know, if you asked Cubans about the longevity of American cars, they might have an opinion about it.

They're still driving farking Edsels.

Crap...by the truckload. With what they charge, I should get a half-million miles out of a US made vehicle. Instead, I can buy a German or Japanese car, pay a slight premium and get (easily) double the mileage. People are willing to pay if they're getting something (other than supporting deadbeat senior union members) for their money.

Remember, unless an American CEO's running it, you're not buying American. Even if your car's made in Mexico.

/hops into his Honda

kpaxoid: This is an industry that thinks "OnStar" is innovation.

Oh, c'mon. The Eddie Bauer Explorer was years ahead of its time.

monty666: They're still driving farking Edsels.

That's because some Cubans know their way around a machine shop.

60-80,000 miles is good? They are lucky to sell a single car as Japanese cars triple that (and those have lower running costs as well).

Nobody should bail Chrysler out, they're privately owned by Cerberus Capital Management and were bought just this year. They did their due diligence and still bought them, dumbasses.

Foreign built I mean foreign company. But you bring up an interesting point: Some of Detroit's failed infrastructure will invariably be bought up by Honda/Toyota and others to cushion the blow. Let them fail, it's call Capitalism. Why would I want to buy a car that still doesn't work? Change your product or pay the price. Looks like it's time for Detroit to pay the price.

GM sold more vehicles last year than Toyota and did it with less employees. The problem isn't their cars, it's the blood sucking union contracts.

Party Boy: but guess who pays for healthcare in Japan? The Japanese government.

more

(2006) Detroit's big three seek White House help
· Bosses of Chrysler, GM and Ford get long-delayed talks
· Demands for tax breaks and level playing field

America's top three carmakers met George Bush yesterday to demand more help from a seemingly unsympathetic administration in fending off Japanese competition and in shifting vehicles towards environmentally friendly forms of fuel.
...
Topics on the table included ways to tackle the burden of employee healthcare costs which typically add between $900 (£475) and $1,400 to the price of every American car.

The companies say this is one reason why they are slashing thousands of jobs and closing factories. American manufacturers are facing vigorous foreign competition including inroads by Japanese auto companies who benefit from the relatively low value of the yen. The trio insisted they were not in Washington to seek a bailout from their chronic financial difficulties.

Ford's chief executive, Alan Mulally, said: "The question was asked [by reporters] were we interested in a bailout. Absolutely not; we really believe the action starts with us. We're taking action to restructure the industry."

But they said there were ways in which the administration could help, including, they suggested, pressing the Japanese to allow the value of the yen to rise. General Motors' chief executive, Rick Wagoner, said: "It's our strong conviction that the Japanese yen is systematically undervalued, which helps them maintain significant trade balance surpluses in our industry."

Between them, GM and Ford lost $4.1bn in the first half of the year. The Detroit-based manufacturers have struggled to cope with a slump in the popularity of sports utility vehicles and pickup trucks, partly caused by the high price of petrol.

To ram home the point that they intend to shift away from petrol, Mr Mulally and Mr Wagoner arrived for the meeting in hybrid fuel vehicles. But they complained that alternative energy remains awkward for consumers because few filling stations provide fill-ups - for example, only 1,000 of America's 176,000 service stations offers ethanol fuel. The trio told the president that if they get practical and policy support from the government, they could reach a point by 2012 where 50% of new cars are ethanol-enabled.
===

yes, 2 years later, they are asking for a bailout. Here's some sorely needed context in threads with calls for the heads of one of the last unions with any real clout. Every group has flaws, its just sad to see the free pass from the Banks, who got large amounts of money, not get as railed on by congress, when...

recall 2005, when congress bailed-out credit card companies by making it harder for the regular guy to declare bankruptcy- most of whom were put there by crushing medical bills. Worse yet, those bankruptcy laws helped drive foreclosures as homeowners defaulted on mortgages.

The passage of this bill had unintended consequences that are particularly apropos for our current situation.

(2005) Washington Mutual Inc. got what it wanted in 2005: A revised bankruptcy code that no longer lets people walk away from credit card bills.

The largest U.S. savings and loan didn't count on a housing recession. The new bankruptcy laws are helping drive foreclosures to a record as homeowners default on mortgages and struggle to pay credit card debts that might have been wiped out under the old code, said Jay Westbrook, a professor of business law at the University of Texas Law School in Austin and a former adviser to the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.

"Be careful what you wish for," Westbrook said. "They wanted to make sure that people kept paying their credit cards, and what they're getting is more foreclosures."

Washington Mutual, Bank of America Corp., JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Citigroup Inc. spent $25 million in 2004 and 2005 lobbying for a legislative agenda that included changes in bankruptcy laws to protect credit card profits, according to the Center for Responsive Politics, a non-partisan Washington group that tracks political donations.

The banks are still paying for that decision. The surge in foreclosures has cut the value of securities backed by mortgages and led to more than $40 billion of writedowns for U.S. financial institutions. It also reached to the top echelons of the financial services industry.

....

"[Congress is] to have to figure out some way to address the problem," Westbrook said. "I don't think our economy or our consciences can handle the number of foreclosures we'll see if they do nothing." (also see Prisoners of Debt, Economist 2005)

----
Additional links


Bankruptcy Reform and Foreclosures

US Senate Banking Hearings

"Examining the Billing, Marketing, and Disclosure Practices of the Credit Card Industry, and Their Impact on Consumers."

• Elizabeth Warren

Bankruptcy Bill Said to Hit Poorest Americans Hardest

Credit Cards, Bankruptcy Laws and the Mortgage Meltdown

Banks get a pass, and we're (U.S. citizens) sharing a common burden, an unbalanced and unfair global playingfield from healthcare issues. Its the elephant in the room.

So a car that lasts 60K is considered "too good"? Asshat.

/Nissan Sentra
//146K and still going

I remember as a kid, when we'd up the area of Route 611 (north of Philadelphia) where all of the car dealerships are. And I remember thinking... wow, that's a lot of cars.

If a precocious 10-year-old can figure out that the Big 3 were producing waaaaaaaaay more than they could ever expect to sell, and the boards of directors couldn't? Yeah, doomed to failure.

MIguy: GM sold more vehicles last year than Toyota and did it with less employees. The problem isn't their cars, it's the blood sucking union contracts.

Bull. See several posts in this thread for reasons why.

The unions are a problem, but they have been steadily giving things up for a while. shiatty cars, focusing on SUVs, and being self righteous dicks about "buying American" are bigger problems. Okay, the last one probably isn't a big economy problem, but it's farking annoying.

/Drives a Chrysler PT Crusier, wishes he had gotten something smaller with better MPG that didn't have a shiatty turning radius

"Harley makes motorcycles that leak and break down."
"American automakers build cars that fall apart at 75,000 miles."

Neither statement is true anymore, but it'll take a half century for people to figure that out for themselves and not just take mass medias word for it.

The number of 300,000 mile Chevy trucks in this town of 25,000 in South Dakota (Brutal winters here) can't be a fluke.
I also have a set of pistons that I removed for a customers HD at 100,000 miles that still look new. The owner just assumed tat at 100,000 miles the bike needed an overhaul. It did not.
American manufacturing quality is fine, its reputation though has been horribly damaged by their past mistakes.

@ brx

Real men don't ask robots for directions.


/drives a Lincoln MkVII with 210,000 miles
// and a compass

J-Fish 2008-12-07 06:58:20 PM
Foreign built I mean foreign company. But you bring up an interesting point: Some of Detroit's failed infrastructure will invariably be bought up by Honda/Toyota and others to cushion the blow. Let them fail, it's call Capitalism. Why would I want to buy a car that still doesn't work? Change your product or pay the price. Looks like it's time for Detroit to pay the price.


But-but-but you are rooting for Americans to lose their job? Why dont you want to foot the bill to hold them over for another 20 years so we can bail them out again??

Let them farking fail. fark them. Every word that comes out of them just proves that they deserve to go the way of the dinosaur.

We want quality, LONG LASTING automobiles that get good mileage. We don't want your planned obsolescence crapmobiles.

Only "American" car that I have had that was any good was a '97(don't laugh) Dodge Neon(made in canada). That car was a)attractive b)fun as HELL to drive c)great mileage d)very VERY easy and very affordable to maintain and e)because of these things, was a very nice running car well into 150k miles.

Of course, they stopped making them, apparently to focus on making such winners as.. uh.. well nothing. Ford makes ok trucks, the rest can die.

Weaver95: DeadZone: If they're so damn good, why do the big three have less than half of the US car market?

I like how he dodged the question about why he shouldn't be fired.

"it's up to the board of directors." Um, yeah - but that wasn't the damn question you slimy git.

Did you really expect him to say, "They should can me immediately, thanks for asking"?

Gdalescrboz: But-but-but you are rooting for Americans to lose their job? Why dont you want to foot the bill to hold them over for another 20 years so we can bail them out again??

Yeah you're right. Silly me. Give them all the money they want and everything will be better. How could I be so unpatriotic? I'm going to go buy a H-2 right now.

theorellior: kpaxoid: This is an industry that thinks "OnStar" is innovation.

Oh, c'mon. The Eddie Bauer Explorer was years ahead of its time.

You accidentally touched a nerve. We once owned a brand new Ford Eddie Bauer Aerostar. I can honestly say it was the worst vehicle I ever owned. In the course of its lifetime, we replaced EVERY SINGLE part of the powertrain, some more than once. Every single light bulb in that thing was a fuse.

From now on my wife and I will NEVER EVER buy a vehicle which is not a Honda.

I don't think that this can be blamed on "union".

aiiee: Oddly enough,that's kind of true. The American auto industry was built on planned obsolescence.


I remember watching a MSTK short called Hired!, which was a 1940's training film for Chevrolet salesmen. There's a scene where 2 salesmen are badgering some old guy to buy a car. The one saleman says to the customer "We hope you buy your next TEN cars from us".

That scene starts around 7:45 in this clip Link (new window)

Good God! Were people supposed to buy new cars every 2 years or something back then?

I can get 40,000 miles out of a set of freakin' tires. If my car had to be replaced at 60K, I'd be ready to take hostages.