Paging GaryPDX...I hear your head asploding right now...

big_pth: Paging GaryPDX...I hear your head asploding right now...

hahaha..those silly Brits. The Loyalists believed their bullshiat too. The Marxists can kiss my pirate ass. Arrrrr.

The article makes a decent argument against a command economy, but has little to do with the headline. Local or organic foods are just another choice we are given in our free market. If someone derives more utility from consuming an organic, local apple than a supermarket one, it follows that they would be willing to pay more.

Meh... individualism is just fascism with more options. Belong or go to that group of people over there who don't belong. Make sure to buy your clothes where they do. And put on some incense... it's starting to stank in here.

The "buy nothing" days are always a great excuse to buy crap I otherwise wouldn't.

The article is full of bogus assumptions. Most places have a range of organic local produce providers who compete for customer money. Buy nothing days have never been enforced and are only an issue for a tiny slice of the population.

This reactionary is probably just scared that all those delicious imported goodies are going to be taken away. Relax, no one is going to take away your Chilean peppers or Italian Asiago.

Whatever the dubious of organic food, the "organic foods movement" is actually at the forefront of the struggle against authoritarianism and in favor of individual liberty in this country. THis is why organic farmers have SWAT teams raiding their homes.

ne2d: Whatever the dubious of organic food, the "organic foods movement" is actually at the forefront of the struggle against authoritarianism and in favor of individual liberty in this country. THis is why organic farmers have SWAT teams raiding their homes.

Umm... they do? Or are we just talking about the organic pot farmers?

I refuse to buy organic food, myself. I want my food loaded with preservatives, insecticides, and fertilizers. It's the least I can do to ensure that we, as a society, get the best use of all of the arable land that we can.

Now if only we could put an end to farm subsidies...

t3knomanser: ne2d: Whatever the dubious of organic food, the "organic foods movement" is actually at the forefront of the struggle against authoritarianism and in favor of individual liberty in this country. THis is why organic farmers have SWAT teams raiding their homes.

Umm... they do? Or are we just talking about the organic pot farmers?

Ohio police storm a farmhouse, hold a couple and their grandchildren at gunpoint for nine hours. Was it for (a) a drug operation (b) conspiracy for terrorism or (c) some licensing complaint about running a food co-op? (new window)

ne2d: Ohio police storm a farmhouse, hold a couple and their grandchildren at gunpoint for nine hours. Was it for (a) a drug operation (b) conspiracy for terrorism or (c) some licensing complaint about running a food co-op?

Hardly a trend. Your comment makes it sound like there's an institutional practice of legally harassing organic farmers. And while the police reaction was out of line, being "members only" does not necessarily free you from the responsibility of accepting health inspectors. Big "L" libertarians may oppose health inspections for places that sell food, but I do not.

I thought it was SociaLEST.

/civics classes are desperately needed in schools

t3knomanser: ne2d: Ohio police storm a farmhouse, hold a couple and their grandchildren at gunpoint for nine hours. Was it for (a) a drug operation (b) conspiracy for terrorism or (c) some licensing complaint about running a food co-op?

Hardly a trend. Your comment makes it sound like there's an institutional practice of legally harassing organic farmers. And while the police reaction was out of line, being "members only" does not necessarily free you from the responsibility of accepting health inspectors. Big "L" libertarians may oppose health inspections for places that sell food, but I do not.

you still miss the point - inspections could have easily been done without bring a full swat team and pointing guns at people. I dunno, call me crazy but I think using mil-spec weapons in support of a routine inspection for health code violations is a wee bit over the top. What were they planning to do? shoot people if they found unsanitary conditions?

Weaver95: you still miss the point - inspections could have easily been done without bring a full swat team and pointing guns at people. I dunno, call me crazy but I think using mil-spec weapons in support of a routine inspection for health code violations is a wee bit over the top.

I agree entirely. But that has less to do with this happening to organic farmers and more to do with an institutional trend to overreact with police forces for all sorts of trivial situations. From no-knock drug raids to SWAT teams showing up to arrest people for tickets to the aggressive and violent locker searches in schools.

But that hardly supports the claim that organic farmers are on the forefront of the battle for civil liberties.

CISA and other organizations that are farm collective bargaining agencies aren't a threat to anything but the stranglehold that a skewed market presents, as opposed to what folks call a "free" market.

In truth, we need competition, but a government that selects which businesses are to succeed is not a fair or free market. The rise of organic and "alternative" food sources is part of that free market, and should be applauded by those who favor more and better competition--as opposed to those who like to cry "free market" when it is in fact supporting skewed and government subsidized markets, and is hoping like heck you won't look behind the curtain.

Organic foods which save the environment (and me!) help make government grow into a fascist state?

I love republicans and their lack of logic.

Very well written, but still full of unsubstantiated conjectures that don't equal a good argument. Yes, its short, and yes, its non-academic, but its not very convincing. The author creates an incomplete caricature of communism and fascism, a "straw man" that is easy to knock over, and attempts to empirically support his own argument through personal experience...

oh wait, this is journalism, not serious political stuff, ok, nvm, go on, continue, as you were.
/more importantly, nothing to get excited about here

jake3988: Organic foods which save the environment (and me!) help make government grow into a fascist state?

I love republicans and their lack of logic.

Yeah, they don't cause fascism. That's pretty much why the article is on FARK, the idea is ludicrous. However, they are bad for the environment not good for it. Their selling point is that they're somehow healthier for you -- possibly correctly in some specific cases, usually not -- but anyone telling you they're good for the environment is not just exaggerating or being dubious and overzealous, they're flat-out lying to you.

Food/area is much worse when you're using techniques that were outdated in the 1500s, you see. The more area we have to use to feed a population, the more 'nature' we have to kill off to do it.

Not that hard to figure, really. But if you want to consume food specifically advertised as destroying more of nature than usual, that's fine with me. I'm not a big fan of nature, most of it wants to kill us.

Is this kind of like when Bill O'Reilly says that boycotts are un-American, except for the frequent instances when he calls for boycotts on his show?

CaptainFatass: Is this kind of like when Bill O'Reilly says that boycotts are un-American, except for the frequent instances when he calls for boycotts on his show?

It's only Un-American if you boycott his advertisers and supporters. Get it right.

/can someone pass me the corn syrup, please?

The Republican Party spend three decades spreading the seeds of fascism in our society.

And, for the most part, our collective nation finally woke up and voted the bastards out of office.

Now comes the hard part...cleaning up the mess they left behind.

Wouldn't supporting local eateries and organic food growers ensure there is meaningful competition between big agra/chain restaurants and the mom and pop shops that provide the heart of capitalism - freedom of choice?

/are we not men?

The health food thing is a golden marketing opportunity for people producing commodities to differentiate their product. How could anyone who understands modern industry and marketing complain about it?

I_Approve_Of_This_Message: The Republican Party spend three decades spreading the seeds of fascism in our society.

And, for the most part, our collective nation finally woke up and voted the bastards out of office.

Now comes the hard part...cleaning up the mess they left behind.

Because, of course, it is only the republicans that are corrupt, and the Dems didn't have control of two branches for even a few years during the 90s.

If people want to buy local products or organic products or just not buy anything, that is simply another market force.

That being said, I don't think that it's possible or even good to pick a single political format and strive to stick with it 100%. In truth, most societies are a mixture of free market, socialism, democracy, republicanism, communism and, yes, even fascism. And that's the way it should be. "All one way" is for ideologues and academic thinkers. Reality dictates that we take the best each system has to offer and amalgamate them the best we can.

El Chode: Wouldn't supporting local eateries and organic food growers ensure there is meaningful competition between big agra/chain restaurants and the mom and pop shops that provide the heart of capitalism - freedom of choice?

/are we not men?

Of course not. REAL competition is sending your dollars outside your local economy, so that it can be dumped into funds that invest it far from home, and often outside the country, for fantastic returns that are then pushed into other funds that likewise export jobs and returns. Don't you know ANYTHING?

Hitler wore khakis, so so anyone who wears khakis MUST be a fascist.

And don't forget... soy makes you teh ghey! (new window)

Jim_Callahan: Food/area is much worse when you're using techniques that were outdated in the 1500s, you see. The more area we have to use to feed a population, the more 'nature' we have to kill off to do it.

Properly-run mixed organic farms can compete favourably with monoculture both in profit and total production. Modern ecological farming is more sophisticated than industrial farming methods that were developed for mass production of food for the two world wars.

But surely you know this if you're wading into a thread on the subject, so I'll assume you're trolling.

It's not Fascism versus Free Market. It's Fascism versus Free Market versus Socialism versus Tribalism versus Mercantilism, versus whatever else has existed in history (or will exist). But nice try, subby.

In fact, this whole article is one big godwin.

That article is full of FAIL. No wonder the GOP thinks attacking Intellectualism is a winning strategy...with guys like the author, they may just have a point. Fortunately, just because his intellectual arguments SUCK doesn't mean that all intellectual arguments suck.

I *choose* to live simply, not buy crap I don't need, work no more than I need to, live more locally, and refuse materialism. Note... that is a *choice*, and I appreciate the choice.

Even choosing to evangelize this presents *choice* into the marketplace of ideas. Not every *choice* has a dollar sign, Mr. Levy. Choosing not to spend is every bit as powerful a choice.

Yes, be a good little capitalist and consume...



Free markets and consumerism are good for everyone! Just look at what they could do to the planet:



Oh, and the people, too:

t3knomanser: I refuse to buy organic food, myself. I want my food loaded with preservatives, insecticides, and fertilizers. It's the least I can do to ensure that we, as a society, get the best use of all of the arable land that we can.

Conventional agriculture destroys the soil. It erodes quickly and will be a huge problem in a decade or two. The pollution caused by fertilizer and pesticide runoff is a huge water issue as well. Organic food can yield just as much if not more per acre of land. If you're looking for the best use of arable land then organic (real organic) is the way to go.

/agrees that farm subsidies need to GTFO

Spend your way to prosperity^tm has worked so well. Why would we change it?

hubiestubert: Of course not. REAL competition is sending your dollars outside your local economy, so that it can be dumped into funds that invest it far from home, and often outside the country, for fantastic returns that are then pushed into other funds that likewise export jobs and returns. Don't you know ANYTHING?

I'm sorry. Us Monitored Capitalists need to get re-educated in the difference between a monopoly and and a duopoly, and how one is a-ok and the other is evil, wicked, mean and nasty.

sojourner: Jim_Callahan: Food/area is much worse when you're using techniques that were outdated in the 1500s, you see. The more area we have to use to feed a population, the more 'nature' we have to kill off to do it.

Properly-run mixed organic farms can compete favourably with monoculture both in profit and total production. Modern ecological farming is more sophisticated than industrial farming methods that were developed for mass production of food for the two world wars.

But surely you know this if you're wading into a thread on the subject, so I'll assume you're trolling.

Yeah, the 1500s crack was a bit trollish, I admit. I get kind of frustrated by people that don't understand why things like pesticides and fertilizers are used (i.e. most of the 'organic food' consumer base) and have a low tolerance for snake-oil sales in general. So I was perhaps more acidic than necessary. My bad.

Worse for the environment than non-organic (silicaceous?) methods, then.

El Chode: I_Approve_Of_This_Message: The Republican Party spend three decades spreading the seeds of fascism in our society.

And, for the most part, our collective nation finally woke up and voted the bastards out of office.

Now comes the hard part...cleaning up the mess they left behind.

Because, of course, it is only the republicans that are corrupt, and the Dems didn't have control of two branches for even a few years during the 90s.

Wow, so the few years that the Dems had control is equivelant to the decades that the Repubs were in control? That's some mighty fine mathematics there, Michael Savage. Now care to explain how Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are responsible for the economic meltdown?

I didn't read the article, so I apologize if my comment is completely off base. That said, I would argue the "eat local" notion is something could easily succeed in a free market system, assuming you affix the eternal cost valuation to the food you buy.

For instance if you insist on having your produce shipped from California to, say, the east coast, that's your choice. But you, as a consumer are responsible for not only the cost of the product, but for the damage done by shipping across the country.

As I am not an environmental engineer, I won't get into the debate about what the external costs should actually be, but you get the idea. This tactic goes even further, because now those cheap Chinese knick-knacks won't be quite as cheap, meaning you might think twice before buying things you don't need.

El Chode: hubiestubert: Of course not. REAL competition is sending your dollars outside your local economy, so that it can be dumped into funds that invest it far from home, and often outside the country, for fantastic returns that are then pushed into other funds that likewise export jobs and returns. Don't you know ANYTHING?

I'm sorry. Us Monitored Capitalists need to get re-educated in the difference between a monopoly and and a duopoly, and how one is a-ok and the other is evil, wicked, mean and nasty.

Choices breed dissent. Dissent breeds discontent. Discontent is bad for business. Thus, choice is bad for business. Anything bad for business, is bad for the free markets, so thusly, choices hamstring the free market.

It's a very easy chart.

OMG Socialism: I didn't read the article, so I apologize if my comment is completely off base. That said, I would argue the "eat local" notion is something could easily succeed in a free market system, assuming you affix the eternal cost valuation to the food you buy.

For instance if you insist on having your produce shipped from California to, say, the east coast, that's your choice. But you, as a consumer are responsible for not only the cost of the product, but for the damage done by shipping across the country.


Change is coming. (new window)

Wasn't Prince Charles an early advocate of organic farming in Britain? And buying local?

Watch out, America: Organic Food = Monarchy.

It's all just a front for the resurgence of the manorial system.

I_Approve_Of_This_Message: Now care to explain how Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are responsible for the economic meltdown?

Well yes, of course, I forgot that it's either the Dem's fault or the Republicans, but never both at the same time. And of course, only republicans do evil and hurt things. Long live Nancy Pelosi! Of course it's not like the Dems have been in power for the past two years and campaigned on an anything-but-bush campaign. I thought they were supposed to save us from the Bush policies? No, of course. It's a binary world we live in - Dems blame Repubs, Repubs blame Dems, and only idiots blame both.

Brainmask: Wasn't Prince Charles an early advocate of organic farming in Britain? And buying local?

Watch out, America: Organic Food = Monarchy.

It's all just a front for the resurgence of the manorial system.

From there, it's just an easy slide to the Diggers returning, and a fast slide towards Communism and the end of property as we know it.

Oh the humanity...

Jim_Callahan: Yeah, the 1500s crack was a bit trollish, I admit. I get kind of frustrated by people that don't understand why things like pesticides and fertilizers are used (i.e. most of the 'organic food' consumer base) and have a low tolerance for snake-oil sales in general. So I was perhaps more acidic than necessary. My bad.

Worse for the environment than non-organic (silicaceous?) methods, then.

Why do you think pesticides and fertilizers are used to the extent they are in industrial farming, in comparison to other farming methods?

Please also demonstrate that 'organic' farming both isn't able to sustain competitive food per land area, and that the land area which gets used is equally "killed".

twat_waffle: Yes, be a good little capitalist and consume...

Free markets and consumerism are good for everyone! Just look at what they could do to the planet:

Oh, and the people, too:

Ah yes, the classic argumentum ad Disney-Pixarium.

ne2d:

Ah yes, the classic argumentum ad Disney-Pixarium.

I lol'd

El Chode: I_Approve_Of_This_Message: Now care to explain how Barney Frank and Chris Dodd are responsible for the economic meltdown?

Well yes, of course, I forgot that it's either the Dem's fault or the Republicans, but never both at the same time. And of course, only republicans do evil and hurt things. Long live Nancy Pelosi! Of course it's not like the Dems have been in power for the past two years and campaigned on an anything-but-bush campaign. I thought they were supposed to save us from the Bush policies? No, of course. It's a binary world we live in - Dems blame Repubs, Repubs blame Dems, and only idiots blame both.

I'm trying to figure out which part of your statement is rational and which part is sarcastic.

The fact is that we are all to blame. We live in a democratic society, and we chose to sit on the sidelines and do nothing while these greedy motherfarkers got into office and proceeded to rape the national coffers. Our eyes are finally open because we're teetering on the cliff. I can only hope that the new administration can at least get us in the direction of solid ground.

This is our last best chance.

I_Approve_Of_This_Message: I'm trying to figure out which part of your statement is rational and which part is sarcastic.

All of it? I dunno. I cannot stand the binary thought system of most voters/arguers who claim it's all the D/R fault. I could be one of those Fark Independents(TM) but typically I just border on a slight anarchy/cynicism.

I will say that so far, Obama has been full of nice surprises and (unfortunately) expected letdowns. More than I can say about the past decade...

/Only because there's no "bullschitt" tag.

ne2d: twat_waffle: Yes, be a good little capitalist and consume...

Free markets and consumerism are good for everyone! Just look at what they could do to the planet:

Oh, and the people, too:

Ah yes, the classic argumentum ad Disney-Pixarium.

The fact that I related my argument to a Disney/Pixar movie does not invalidate my statement.