This is all Mugabe has left: all he can do is blame "the West" (i.e. white people) for Zimbabwe's problems, and try to rally them to his side by speaking darkly of upcoming invasions.

The thing is, though, that the people are now so hungry and so riddled with disease (the health system has deteriorated to such an extent that a cholera epidemic is raging), that they might say "Fark it, come on in England."

/thinks this might be a sneak preview of Venezuela in a few years if oil stays this low
//which it probably won't

jake_lex: This is all Mugabe has left: all he can do is blame "the West" (i.e. white people) for Zimbabwe's problems, and try to rally them to his side by speaking darkly of upcoming invasions.

The thing is, though, that the people are now so hungry and so riddled with disease (the health system has deteriorated to such an extent that a cholera epidemic is raging), that they might say "Fark it, come on in England."

/thinks this might be a sneak preview of Venezuela in a few years if oil stays this low
//which it probably won't

All he has left? It's all he's been doing for YEARS. The mean white farmer secretly wants to re-colonialize, let's seize his land and give it to an inept party member before that happens. The mean European governments secretly want to stage an coup or invasion by sending in aid, let's kick them all out of the country. Hell, we used to be the breadbasket of Africa, we don't need their aid!

I think you're on to something though, with the epidemic spreading this is sadly the only way the current regime can end. It's really hard to motivate police to keep a population in order when they aren't being paid, have no stable source of food, and now on top of all that the people they are policing are possibly infected with something that can kill them. Soon this will spread to the army (more than it has already) and then it's game over. The real question is how are they going to pick up the pieces after Mugabe.

I don't think Venezuela will be even remotely close to this. This kind of complete, protracted govermental collapse hasn't really been seen before. Venezuela at least has semi-functioning services and a semi-stable currency. Sure, Hugo put a lot of his chips in on oil when it was 100/bbl, and that was a really dumb thing to do. However, you don't see him ripping essential services like food production away from his people to keep his populace running from a imaginary boogeyman.

jake_lex: This is all Mugabe has left: all he can do is blame "the West" (i.e. white people) for Zimbabwe's problems, and try to rally them to his side by speaking darkly of upcoming invasions.

The thing is, though, that the people are now so hungry and so riddled with disease (the health system has deteriorated to such an extent that a cholera epidemic is raging), that they might say "Fark it, come on in England."

/thinks this might be a sneak preview of Venezuela in a few years if oil stays this low
//which it probably won't

Has it been a full 3 years since Mark Thatcher, son of former UK Prime Minister, was caught trying to launch a coup against Equitorial Guinea?

I speak with a TFette from South Africa fairly often. She says the the situation there is far more desperate than the media lets on. The South African gov't is having to deal with a serious refugee problem. It is worsened now by the fact that so many of the refugees have TB and other infectious diseases.

Someone ought to go in there and straighten that shiat out. Mugabe makes Saddam Hussein look like your Uncle Joe when it comes to what he's done to his citizens.

/of course there's not a lot of oil in Zimbabwe

better Zimbabwe than Zombabwe....Mmm...braaaains....

/Wishes we still had Rhodesia....
//and the States...
///...sniff...

Won't happen.
Zimbabwe has no good carry out food potential.

Good, I hope they do. For lot's of reasons.

Free Rhodesia!!!

Of course, my Uncle Joe was a genocidal mainiac, too.

Torn from a red-lit thread:

Why would anyone interfere (in a possibly military sense) in a nominally christian, oil-poor country? To bring democracy, human rights, remove a brutal dictator? You're kidding, right?

Mugabe is a c*nt of epic proportions and I hope one day soon the people of that desperate country get to piss on his grave.

"He needs killin'" is so appropriate for Mugabe. That monster has turned a prosperous food exporting country into a hell-hole. The current situation is no surprise to anyone who has been following what goes on in Zimbabwe. Hell, two years ago I said someone needs to shoot that motherfarker in the head.

How many headlines of 1888 ever included the name Zimbabwe?

Dosn't the US Govt. have plans on file for invading Canada, and Portugaul, and all these other friendly sountries, which they update for practice and "Just In Case"? Couldn't this just be more of the same from our tea-drinking, spotted dick munching, cross-atlantic counterparts?

On the Zimbabwe issue... all I can say is I hope that the trend towards increasingly centralized power and thieving politicians isn't continued in a larger, more powerful country, like the USA.

/Oh, wait...
//Just a matter of time me boyo's, and then the wheel comes around again!

Approves.

/Obscure?

Balls to the EU and balls to the UN! Its about time either the US or the UK - or both - acted without waiting around for these inefficient and ineffective international organisations etc. Acting unilaterally or bilaterally gets things done.

First the destruction of unplanned settlements causing 2.5m displaced
Then poor policy forcing a food shortage
Then lack of infrastructure causing sanitation and hygiene problems linked to cholera epidemic..

Like the Sudanese government blocking aid and food to the Fur Tribe, this is genocide.

you don't have to shoot someone in the head to kill them. All this biatching about 'the West' I wish Russia and China grew a pair and went in....

I read this as "Bush accused of planning invader Zim"

eggrolls: Approves.

/Obscure?

Mugabe's time has gone by?

I wouldn't say this of many places... I didn't say it about Iraq, and I wouldn't say it about even some of the other worst regimes in the world. That said... Zimbabwe would be better in total anarchy than they are under the Mugabe authority, I would welcome any action that helps the people there... at this point, I'm pretty sure just about anything would constitute help, so I'm all for it.

I still say we need either a DIAF tag for Mugabe, or just a MUGABE tag, for this sort of thing.

loki see loki do: Of course, my Uncle Joe was a genocidal mainiac, too.

OK, poor choice. Should have either picked another name or qualified that with "unless your last name is Dzhugashvili."

LawrencePerson,
The USA should keep its troops home unless (a) they're out fighting an existential threat to the USA that must be defeated at all costs, or (b) they have clear objectives, a clear strategy, and a very high likelihood of swiftly achieving them.

There are other reasons why US troops should not go out, that may eliminate some that make it through those filters from justification. But those are a good start.

Zimbabwe, like Iraq II, falls afoul of both: Neither is an existential threat, the objectives are massively muddy, the path to achieving them through military force is bizarrely convoluted, and (assuming that one goal is to leave with a stable situation superior to what came before) the likelihood of success is quite low.

just_dis_guy: Someone ought to go in there and straighten that shiat out. Mugabe makes Saddam Hussein look like your Uncle Joe when it comes to what he's done to his citizens.

"The White Man's Burden" is so 19th Century, man.

Jeebus. Zimbabwe's inflation rate is over 2.2 million%. What in the holy hell?!

loki see loki do: Of course, my Uncle Joe was a genocidal mainiac, too.

Cousin Billy?

That is to say, no matter how noble the goal, if what you're going to do isn't going to work, don't do it.

See also the auto industry bailout.

eggrolls: Approves.

/Obscure?
He was in Kenya...


Cecil Rhodes, reporting for duty

In other news, Obama's brother lives in a hut and eats bugs.

LawrencePerson: Today's Test

Essay Question

America only intervenes in a foreign country's affairs when its in its national interest to do so. National interest being defined as whatever is itching at the skin of the ruling class that day.

What plotters may look like:

Mouser: just_dis_guy: Someone ought to go in there and straighten that shiat out. Mugabe makes Saddam Hussein look like your Uncle Joe when it comes to what he's done to his citizens.

"The White Man's Burden" is so 19th Century, man.

Hey, white, brown, yellow, I don't really care. Someone needs to remove Mugabe with extreme prejudice.

/if Bush took all the shiat he spews seriously though it woulda been us
//probably would cost just as much to rebuild Zimbabwe as Iraq tho

By the time the UN gets around to doing something, the people are dead so the only thing left to do is tally the casualties, file a report, and hit the all you can eat lobster bar. See Rwanda and Dufar.

firefly212: I didn't say it about Iraq, and I wouldn't say it about even some of the other worst regimes in the world. That said... Zimbabwe would be better in total anarchy than they are under the Mugabe authority, I would welcome any action that helps the people there... at this point, I'm pretty sure just about anything would constitute help, so I'm all for it.


Agreed. I am not in favor of state sponsored assassination, but in this case, I think that Mugabe needs a bullet in his head.

Let everyone just throw in a couple bucks into a fund until there is some former spook who doesn't mind throwing some lead from 1000 Meters out into this guys skull.

Amazing how all the Mugabe apologist populists just shrink away? No worries, you can spot them easily in the Chavez threads.

just_dis_guy: Mouser: just_dis_guy: Someone ought to go in there and straighten that shiat out. Mugabe makes Saddam Hussein look like your Uncle Joe when it comes to what he's done to his citizens.

"The White Man's Burden" is so 19th Century, man.

Hey, white, brown, yellow, I don't really care. Someone needs to remove Mugabe with extreme prejudice.

/if Bush took all the shiat he spews seriously though it woulda been us
//probably would cost just as much to rebuild Zimbabwe as Iraq tho

Send Pat Robertson over there to do it. He seems to be in favor of political killings.

If you are interested, I mean "for real" interested.
Read the history of Zimbabwe/Rhodesia and Mugabe's biography on Wikipedia -- fascinating stuff -- it's fairly complete as-is, but it would benefit you further to read from other scholarly sources.

Mugabe entry in wp (new window)
Zimbabwe entry in wp (new window)

And why they're in such a mess.

land reform entry in wp (new window)
Zimbabwe's hyperinflation entry in wp (new window)

And for bonus points...

dependency theory (economics) in wp (new window)

Just from those sources, I assure you: if you pay close attention, try to consciously filter as much of your entrenched cognitive biases as possible, you'll likely revise or, at the very least, expand upon your position on the matter.

As I see it. Neither England nor Mugabe, the indigenous nor the white settlers, are as good/evil as they seem.

I will assert, however, that there needs to be some correction, delivery of justice if you will, for the residual effects yielded from years of both colonial + apartheid rule.

Rohasman: Dosn't the US Govt. have plans on file for invading Canada, and Portugaul, and all these other friendly sountries, which they update for practice and "Just In Case"?

Batman has plans for taking out the entire Justice League, "Just In Case".

And don't go trying to say Batman isn't real. "Portugaul" isn't a real place either.

TheShavingofOccam123: just_dis_guy: Mouser: just_dis_guy: Someone ought to go in there and straighten that shiat out. Mugabe makes Saddam Hussein look like your Uncle Joe when it comes to what he's done to his citizens.

"The White Man's Burden" is so 19th Century, man.

Hey, white, brown, yellow, I don't really care. Someone needs to remove Mugabe with extreme prejudice.

/if Bush took all the shiat he spews seriously though it woulda been us
//probably would cost just as much to rebuild Zimbabwe as Iraq tho

Send Pat Robertson over there to do it. He seems to be in favor of political killings.

Winnar. Can we send Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld too?

nuclear_asshat: Agreed. I am not in favor of state sponsored assassination, but in this case, I think that Mugabe needs a bullet in his head.

Congress should issue letters of marque against Mugabe, then we can hope that a rich man can finance some bored ex-military types to use "enhanced diplomacy" to convince Mugabe to step down.

myster9:

Sounds like you do have some interest in the subject of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe...

One thing that I've heard repeatedly is that Mugabe can't even govern effectively because much like Saddam his advisors are afraid to tell him things that he doesn't want to hear, so he's effectively insulated from conditions on the ground by layers of bureaucracy, and may not even know just how completely awful things are for the common Zimbabwean. True/false?

just_dis_guy: myster9:

Sounds like you do have some interest in the subject of Rhodesia/Zimbabwe...

One thing that I've heard repeatedly is that Mugabe can't even govern effectively because much like Saddam his advisors are afraid to tell him things that he doesn't want to hear, so he's effectively insulated from conditions on the ground by layers of bureaucracy, and may not even know just how completely awful things are for the common Zimbabwean. True/false?

Considering how bad things are in that country, I think it's impssible for anyone to not know how bad things are in that country. Blaming the problems on his advisers isn't acceptable.

myster9: As I see it. Neither England nor Mugabe, the indigenous nor the white settlers, are as good/evil as they seem.

I will assert, however, that there needs to be some correction, delivery of justice if you will, for the residual effects yielded from years of both colonial + apartheid rule.

Like most socialist rulers, Mugabe experienced much success early on. Like most socialist rulers, eventually the real market conditions push against the artificial ones that were created, and things go to shiat.

And because all leaders are primarily in the business of keeping themselves in power, he made stupid decisions designed to appease the poor and the uneducated who were the majority.

His brand of socialism is the height of arrogance. It is the belief that you can somehow model/predict/plan for all the possible circumstances of human choice, and then engineer that choice into some sort of social agenda.

I always found it funny that some many communists and socialists never believe in God, but assumed the state is omnipotent. And to believe that true socialism will work in the long term assumes omnipotence.

Said it would happen.


myster9: As I see it. Neither England nor Mugabe, the indigenous nor the white settlers, are as good/evil as they seem.

Whatever the morality of his land reform, the nature of the results is obvious. He takes land from those who knew how to use it best, and gave it to people who have no knowledge of modern farming (instead of perhaps giving to farm workers). When the economy tanks he blames everyone else, and when things get bad he shows what he is really made of.
Land redistribution has been successful in some countries when land was given to tenant farmers, Mugabe just gave it to his cronies.

Zimbabwe is a classic example of a country we should invade in the name of intervention.

F*ck Mugabe, send in the Marines.

Remove all Republicans:
Again, the West should be helping him. Send billions in dollars to the country and they won't need to use their currency. Eliminate all their debts and they won't need to print money.


Send money to Africa...excuse their debts. That would be original thinking if it were some 30 years ago.

Most of Africa is already on global welfare, and strong men like Mugabe line their personal bank accounts with most of it.

Remove all Republicans: Why doesn't the West actually HELP the people of Zimbabwe instead of just sitting around enacting sanctions all day on them? Even if Mugabe made a mistake in who he chose as farmers, that doesn't mean that everyone should just let the country go to hell.

Because Mugabe isn't the least bit interested in doing what will actually help.

The land deals are hugely important, and you running right past that issue. Agriculture is their economy. With huge deficits in production, it matters little else what you do.

Flood it with food? That just put the farmers out of business.

Say you flood their country with our currency? Are you kidding? That's the sort of economcis Mugabe practices. You don't just flood a country with your currency, that would make them even worse off than they already are.

2% of GDP to 50% of GDP? Are you crazy? Do you realize that since we started "Project Africa" that many nations have moved from foreign aid being 1-2% of their GDP to 10-20% of their GDP with no real increase in standard of living? Not only has giving not helped, it has probably hurt many of those countries.

Those on the ground who have been there are saying the policy of sending money is causing more problems than it is solving. Money with no solid banking system or means to push that money into areas it is needed is worse than nothing. It creates a mechanism of corruption.

myster9: I will assert, however, that there needs to be some correction, delivery of justice
if you will, for the residual effects yielded from years of both colonial + apartheid rule.

But not from the years of native African misrule because as we all know, the West
is exclusively to blame for all the worlds ills....

just_dis_guy Quote 2008-12-07 02:24:04 PM
Someone ought to go in there and straighten that shiat out. Mugabe makes Saddam Hussein look like your Uncle Joe when it comes to what he's done to his citizens.

/of course there's not a lot of oil in Zimbabwe

And the pussies are running everything in Washington again.