Sorry, subby, but it was Godwinned a couple of Question Periods ago.

Yeah, I didn't understand when Gilles Duceppe called Harper "Hitler's Nipples". I think something was lost in translation.

Redundant video is redundant.

I shall squish Dion like those soft kittens in my backyard!

What the hell is wrong with America, Jr.? Its a freaking Banana Republic.

What movie is this clip from exactly?

I've seen it many times in bastardized form and would actually like to see the original film.

madcan34: What movie is this clip from exactly?

Der Untergang, aka Downfall. It's a movie about Hitler's final days, concentrating primarily on the events in the bunker.

Laughing at Hitler is almost as fun as laughing with him...wait...umm

Giggle.

Right now I bet a clever Conservative is tacking "I'm Jack Layton and I support this message" from his campaign commercials on youtube to the end of this.

Show the people what the left wing are all about: ad hominem attacks and weakness both physical and mental.

I lulz'ed, good one subby :)

That was funnier than I expected.

hahawinnipeg: Show the people what the left wing are all about: ad hominem attacks and weakness both physical and mental.

Yes. It's been the three left-leaning parties doing nothing but shrieking talking points about "socialism", "separatists", "traitors" and "collaborators" for the past week.

It's the left leaning parties who are weak since they have a minority of seats in parliament.

It's the three left-wing parties who were forced to ask the GG to unseat the HoC so that they could save their political skins.

(oh....wait.....none of that is at all true. Is the snow hot and purple in your world?)

NDP: Socialists
Bloc: Separatists

The coallition: a collaboration

Traitors: No one, just a lot of political crap when we don't need it. On all sides, Harper is very not innocent on this.

The snow is white here, and cold.

Bill_Wick's_Friend: hahawinnipeg: Show the people what the left wing are all about: ad hominem attacks and weakness both physical and mental.

Yes. It's been the three left-leaning parties doing nothing but shrieking talking points about "socialism", "separatists", "traitors" and "collaborators" for the past week.

It's the left leaning parties who are weak since they have a minority of seats in parliament.

It's the three left-wing parties who were forced to ask the GG to unseat the HoC so that they could save their political skins.

(oh....wait.....none of that is at all true. Is the snow hot and purple in your world?)

The Cs don't have a "minority" of seats, whatever that means. In fact they have way more than any other party.

And it would take ALL THREE other parties ... COMBINED ... to just barely beat the number of seats that the "weak and nobody likes Cs" have.

Face it, people like the Cs. Just not in quebec which isn't surprising for a bunch of "help help we're being oppressed" little backwards assholes.

But Harpers lack of compromise and willingness to play the game is pissing me off something fierce. I'd rather cave a bit on the idea of right to strike or big 3 bailout than see Dion in power [more than say his MP seat grants now].

hahawinnipeg: al

You gotta be kidding me, yall use Socialist as a scary word up there, thought only Americans were that retarded

hahawinnipeg: NDP: Socialists
Bloc: Separatists

The coallition: a collaboration

Traitors: No one, just a lot of political crap when we don't need it. On all sides, Harper is very not innocent on this.

The snow is white here, and cold.

I dunno, a party who's sole interest is destroying the nation might be viewed as treacherous. The Bloc should have no right to be in federal politics whatsoever since they're completely and fundamentally incapable of representing the nation at a federal level.

And before anyone goes off on "that's the thing with free speech/assembly" would you say the same if a party's platform was genocide?

Quebecors just like acting like the victim, all while they screw over their own province with backwards bill 101 bs and other forms of social oppression of the English. Nobody wants to do business with them not because they're French, but because they're a bunch of complete assholes.

Frankly, I pray for the day they separate. Then they get to deal with borders going up, and of course the aboriginals will want their territory back, etc. It'll be epic.

Podna: hahawinnipeg: al

You gotta be kidding me, yall use Socialist as a scary word up there, thought only Americans were that retarded

While we do tend to lean a bit more socialist in Canada than the states, we still value the power of a dollar earned. Most Canadians would rather see people earning their keep than receiving free handsouts.

The problem a lot of people have with the NDP [myself included] is they pander to mostly people who are unemployed or underemployed (re; mining towns, immigrants, etc) and promise of union laws and handouts and what not.

re Podna
You gotta be kidding me, yall use Socialist as a scary word up there, thought only Americans were that retarded

You probably don't want to malign the whole US with your words, so I'll guess you meant conservatives.

I think down south they use the term "Liberal" which is synonymous with implied weak leadership and pushing many dumb ideas, which certainly doesn't apply to Canada's liberals like Dion.

Socailism is scary and doesn't work unless profoundly diluted.

One of these days, I'm actually going to have to watch that movie for real, although I'll probably end up laughing inappropriately during this scene.

tombotia: The Cs don't have a "minority" of seats, whatever that means. In fact they have way more than any other party.

What part of "minority government" has you confused?

tombotia: I dunno, a party who's sole interest is destroying the nation might be viewed as treacherous. The Bloc should have no right to be in federal politics whatsoever since they're completely and fundamentally incapable of representing the nation at a federal level.

Find me the word "referendum" or "separatist" or "independant Quebec" on the BQ website. The Bloc is more and more a Quebec regional party in the same way that the Reformers were an Alberta regional party. I don't have a problem with that. If there were a regional BC party I'd likely give them my vote some/most/all of the time. Doesn't make me a separatist.

The fact that the CPC had to keep dragging the ghost of Jacques Parizeau back from the dead (I had to look it up. You know what Parizeau is doing these days? Living in obscurity in France!) shows how weak their "separatists!!!!" shrill cry really is.

And before anyone goes off on "that's the thing with free speech/assembly" would you say the same if a party's platform was genocide?

I'd say that millions and millions of Quebeckers wouldn't vote for them and that your reducto-ad-absurdum argument is weaker than weak.

The term traitor is being tossed around a little loosely these days.

While you may disagree with the Bloc they are not traitors. They are not blowing up buildings, they are not selling secrets to the Chinese.

Harper is creating a massive national crisis by fixating on this and it will have a huge blow back.

The winners here are the Bloc. If Harper wants to remain in power, and he does, he will cut a deal with the Bloc sometime over christmas.

Then who is the traitor?

Bill_Wick's_Friend: tombotia: The Cs don't have a "minority" of seats, whatever that means. In fact they have way more than any other party.

What part of "minority government" has you confused?


You still miss the point that more Canadians voted C than any other party. So the idea that they are a minor party is somewhat misleading. Sure they don't have over half the seats to be called majority, but the Libs and NDP are VERY far from that goal as well.

tombotia: I dunno, a party who's sole interest is destroying the nation might be viewed as treacherous. The Bloc should have no right to be in federal politics whatsoever since they're completely and fundamentally incapable of representing the nation at a federal level.

Find me the word "referendum" or "separatist" or "independant Quebec" on the BQ website. The Bloc is more and more a Quebec regional party in the same way that the Reformers were an Alberta regional party. I don't have a problem with that. If there were a regional BC party I'd likely give them my vote some/most/all of the time. Doesn't make me a separatist.


You'll have a hard time convincing a lot of people that the BQ are not a party who's sole interest is to fark over Canada to benefit Quebec.

And frankly I'm really tired of hearing about Quebec needs, they represent just over 20% of the nation. It's high time they learn that they're not the centre of the universe. Forcing bilingualism on the rest of us when they can't even do it in their own province.

If I lived in Quebec I'd be ashamed of them every time they came up in the news. And as for the Cs being an Albertan party... well as an Ontarian who voted for the Cs ... I find that statement really funny.

tombotia: Frankly, I pray for the day they separate. Then they get to deal with borders going up, and of course the aboriginals will want their territory back, etc. It'll be epic.

I kinda hope you're joking, but I imagine you're not.

My Canada includes Quebec. It's the whiny, out of touch old French assholes like Parizeau that can fark right off. And I suppose the idiotic, uniformed moronic English jerks that want to wall up Quebec from the rest of Canada can do the same.

This whole thing is not a unity issue. Both sides are really trying hard to make it into one for whatever reason. I find fault with both sides for that.

That said, the BQ does want to get things for Quebec at the expense of the rest of Canada. If the coalition stands, they've certainly managed to obtain it. You really can't fault them for that.

tombotia: You still miss the point that more Canadians voted C than any other party.

You miss the point that in a parliamentary system the "we got more votes than anyone else" is meaningless. Bums in seats in the house is what counts. tombotia:

And as for the Cs being an Albertan party... well as an Ontarian who voted for the Cs ... I find that statement really funny.

Where did I say that? Reread. If you were an Ontarian who voted for the Reform party in the 1990s then you're pretty much the only Ontarian who did so. Manning's party was most definitely a regional Albertan party.

tombotia: And frankly I'm really tired of hearing about Quebec needs, they represent just over 20% of the nation. It's high time they learn that they're not the centre of the universe. Forcing bilingualism on the rest of us when they can't even do it in their own province.

They're actually forcing French on us, not bilingualism. Of course, you'd know that if you lived anywhere close to Quebec. The last thing Quebec supports is official bilingualism.

And hey, there's French speaking centers all over Canada. It's an official language of the country after all. Suck it up, buttercup.



As for thinking their the center of the universe... Well, that's just a French thing. They're special. Strangely, when the Conservative government finally and officially declared them such, they didn't stop biatching about it. I guess they're more special than we thought.

tombotia: they represent just over 20% of the nation. It's high time they learn that they're not the centre of the universe.

Of course not, That's Toronto.

Bill_Wick's_Friend: You miss the point that in a parliamentary system the "we got more votes than anyone else" is meaningless. Bums in seats in the house is what counts.

You both miss the rather subtle point that 114 is less than 139. Either the Bloq is officially part of the coalition or they're not. Having the quasi-official backing of a coalition from a third party doesn't mean a heck of a lot to the Governor General. Or it shouldn't at least.

And, as of yesterday the coalition count was 114. The conservative count is still 139. Without the official participation in the coalition of the Bloq, I don't think the Governor General can really listen to the coalition's demands too much.

Semantics are important is legal matters last time I checked.

Podna: hahawinnipeg: al

You gotta be kidding me, yall youse gaiz use Socialist as a scary word up there, thought only Americans were that retarded

sorry, pet peeve.

hamiltonjdavid: Either the Bloq is officially part of the coalition or they're not.



They are.

hamiltonjdavid: You both miss the rather subtle point that 114 is less than 139.

I'm pretty sure I explained this to you in another thread yesterday. To put it simply: you are willfully missing the point.

The number of seats the government has makes no difference when compared to other groups in the House. (Really, parties in the house are a bit of a kludge; all they really do is make it easier to guess who has the confidence of whom.) All that matters is that the majority of the House has confidence in a particular group forming the government. C.f. Peterson-Rae, where the governing party had less seats than the official opposition and was permitted to govern via an agreement similar to the Bloc one, not a coalition.

You could have a government side of the house made up of 2 people, so long as 153 other members declared confidence in them.

Having the quasi-official backing of a coalition from a third party doesn't mean a heck of a lot to the Governor General. Or it shouldn't at least.

You can wish all you want, but that doesn't change the fact that it does.

Bill_Wick's_Friend: They are.

Semantic quibble: they aren't. They signed an agreement to support the coalition, but only the NDP and Liberals would have cabinet posts in the resultant government and therefore only they make up the coalition.

Bill_Wick's_Friend: They are.

No they're not. And nobody's saying they are.

Link (pops)

Let's count signatures. One. Two. Where's that pesky 3rd one?

hamiltonjdavid: Bill_Wick's_Friend: They are.

No they're not. And nobody's saying they are.

Link (pops)

Let's count signatures. One. Two. Where's that pesky 3rd one?

Now who's playing tricks with whom. They can't form a coalition without the say-so of the Bloc. It's really that simple. The NDP+Libs do not have enough seats to oust anyone.

So sure the cabinet may be NDP+Lib but the bloc will have a large say in what the agenda will be. And you know that will include detrimental changes for the rest of canada.

g026r: I'm pretty sure I explained this to you in another thread yesterday. To put it simply: you are willfully missing the point.

No, not missing the point. Just sticking to mine.

What the coalition has with the Bloq is the ability to bring down the current government in any confidence vote. They do not have the ability to form a government as they do not represent the majority of parliament. 114 is always less than 139.

If they just go ahead and include the Bloq fully in the coalition, I'd have absolutely no problem whatsoever admitting they have every right to run the show.

No, it's not a strong point and I don't expect to win any arguments with people that are strongly against this as pure quibble.

hamiltonjdavid: tombotia: Frankly, I pray for the day they separate. Then they get to deal with borders going up, and of course the aboriginals will want their territory back, etc. It'll be epic.

I kinda hope you're joking, but I imagine you're not.

My Canada includes Quebec. It's the whiny, out of touch old French assholes like Parizeau that can fark right off. And I suppose the idiotic, uniformed moronic English jerks that want to wall up Quebec from the rest of Canada can do the same.

I'm from Ontario, I speak both French and English. I've spent time in France on business and pleasure (a couple months).

That said I still hate Quebec with a passion. First off, bill 101. If I can't open a shop or attend english schools, or generally feel at home in the province then they can go kiss my ass. Second, the fact that a lot of them cross the bridge to work in Ontario. Sure ok, this is Canada and they should be able to do that. Well how about I go get a job in Quebec ... oh wait, tarifs, and that pesky 101, etc.

Then there are the transfer payments that are out of alignment with the rest of Canada.

Then person experience...I'm hardly alone with stories of rough treatment of the locals because of my Ontario license plate or English accent (even though I speak french fluently enough).

I've felt more at home in a west-coast French only fishing village in France than say Hull or Montreal.

My Canada includes the province of Quebec, just not it's people.

g026r: Semantic quibble: they aren't. They signed an agreement to support the coalition, but only the NDP and Liberals would have cabinet posts in the resultant government and therefore only they make up the coalition.

Everything that has transpired in the past week says that the two parties plus the BQ have the ability to unseat the Conservatives. Harper is apparently afraid enough of the "semantic quibble" to suspend parliament.

Two plus the support of the third is as good as all three in this case.

hamiltonjdavid: They do not have the ability to form a government as they do not represent the majority of parliament.

Sorry, but you're still missing the point that that's simply not how our parliament works. They have the confidence of the majority of parliament, and that's all they need.

tombotia: hamiltonjdavid: Bill_Wick's_Friend: They are.

No they're not. And nobody's saying they are.

Link (pops)

Let's count signatures. One. Two. Where's that pesky 3rd one?

Now who's playing tricks with whom. They can't form a coalition without the say-so of the Bloc. It's really that simple. The NDP+Libs do not have enough seats to oust anyone.

So sure the cabinet may be NDP+Lib but the bloc will have a large say in what the agenda will be. And you know that will include detrimental changes for the rest of canada.

Drop this. The CP will cut a deal with the Bloc over the holiday period to remain in power. It's there only hope as the NDP and Libs are working together to bring down the gov't with the help of the Bloc. The CP nees to break the Bloc away, and they've not signed anything to keep them working with the Libs.

So, once the CP cut this deal are you going to call them traitors? Or are you simply going to agree that the Bloc are the kingmakers here.

/Also, the root cause of this mess is Harper and his ill conceived plan to cut funding so as the cripple the Libs and NDP. That one policy showed to the Libs that harper cannot be trusted and we thusly have a disfunctional system that cannot be fixed without Harper going.

rob.d:
Drop this. The CP will cut a deal with the Bloc over the holiday period to remain in power. It's there only hope as the NDP and Libs are working together to bring down the gov't with the help of the Bloc. The CP nees to break the Bloc away, and they've not signed anything to keep them working with the Libs.

I think the Cs are a bit stupid for not trying to play nice with others. Don't think that I have some grand love for the Cs. I voted for my local C MP mostly because it was the best of all the other options.

So really though what option does he have, either they cut some sort of deal with the bloc [probably with the unions and what not] or the bloc will just side with the coalition.

Frankly, I dislike the bloc for even existing in the first place, and I don't blame people for working with them as a result of asshole quebecors voting for them.

That said, doesn't mean you have to team up with them.

rob.d: Drop this. The CP will cut a deal with the Bloc over the holiday period to remain in power. It's there only hope as the NDP and Libs are working together to bring down the gov't with the help of the Bloc. The CP nees to break the Bloc away, and they've not signed anything to keep them working with the Libs.

Well, they've signed this...

Link (new window)

So, it seems as though the Bloq will have to come up with stuff to agree with the Conservatives that falls outside this agreement with the coalition. Or, baring that, they'll just have to close parliament until mid-2010.

But, that said, when have any of the parties ever stuck to a promise to one another for more than 10 minutes?

As for the 114:139 stuff, since the coalition depends on the unwavering support of the Bloq to survive, I give it 10 minutes if it actually ends up happening. As soon as anything that doesn't put Quebec first comes up, the BQ will just force a vote. They literally have nothing to loose at that point.

Good lord, has anybody actually read this thing?

Same thing (new window)

Other Priorities to Stimulate the Economy

- Support for culture including cancellation of budget cuts announced by the Conservative government


Uh. I'm no economist, but... I think my 114:139 crap holds more water than that.

Grapes for PM.

/"Non" to visor-wearing Frenchmen.

hamiltonjdavid: Good lord, has anybody actually read this thing?

Same thing (new window)

Other Priorities to Stimulate the Economy

- Support for culture including cancellation of budget cuts announced by the Conservative government


Uh. I'm no economist, but... I think my 114:139 crap holds more water than that.

Canadian film and TV industries are a revenue-generating sector but part of that is the ability to attract US (and German and UK and Chinese and Indian...) investment and production partners with tax credits and rebate schemes. The end result is still revenue-positive. The Conservatives have utterly failed to realize this, preferring to sneer at "the arts" and to mock a non-existant carricature of a black-beret-clad artist receiving millions in government grants to toss paint at a canvas.

Also there's the intangible element of "culture" and what that culture means to us as Canadians. This is more of an issue in Quebec where Quebecois arts and culture are seen as being an integral part of the society, more so than in the rest of Canada. No, it might not have a quantifiable financial impact, but there's no denying that our country is made better by the existence (and the government encouragement) of Gordon Lightfoot, Rush, Trooper, Mitsou, MuchMusic, City TV's Late Great Movie, Carole Pope, Martha and the Muffins etc etc etc.

(mostly I care about that first part, since I work in the TV industry and it's currently in a state of 'dying' due to bad economy in the US and an anti-film-business federal government. Funny how they love "business" just not my business, eh?)

hahawinnipeg: Socialists

Unless you want to abolish health care, you can drop your Republican-style slandering. Socialism is not a dirty word in this country.

hamiltonjdavid: rob.d: Drop this. The CP will cut a deal with the Bloc over the holiday period to remain in power. It's there only hope as the NDP and Libs are working together to bring down the gov't with the help of the Bloc. The CP nees to break the Bloc away, and they've not signed anything to keep them working with the Libs.

Well, they've signed this...

Link (new window)

So, it seems as though the Bloq will have to come up with stuff to agree with the Conservatives that falls outside this agreement with the coalition. Or, baring that, they'll just have to close parliament until mid-2010.

But, that said, when have any of the parties ever stuck to a promise to one another for more than 10 minutes?

As for the 114:139 stuff, since the coalition depends on the unwavering support of the Bloq to survive, I give it 10 minutes if it actually ends up happening. As soon as anything that doesn't put Quebec first comes up, the BQ will just force a vote. They literally have nothing to loose at that point.

You need to read that link, the Bloc have not signed, only Layton and Dion.

The Bloc will do what the Bloc will do. If Harper offers them a better deal he can peel them away from the Libs.

However, part of that deal will involve billions going to PQ.

rob.d: hamiltonjdavid: rob.d: Drop this. The CP will cut a deal with the Bloc over the holiday period to remain in power. It's there only hope as the NDP and Libs are working together to bring down the gov't with the help of the Bloc. The CP nees to break the Bloc away, and they've not signed anything to keep them working with the Libs.

Well, they've signed this...

Link (new window)

So, it seems as though the Bloq will have to come up with stuff to agree with the Conservatives that falls outside this agreement with the coalition. Or, baring that, they'll just have to close parliament until mid-2010.

But, that said, when have any of the parties ever stuck to a promise to one another for more than 10 minutes?

As for the 114:139 stuff, since the coalition depends on the unwavering support of the Bloq to survive, I give it 10 minutes if it actually ends up happening. As soon as anything that doesn't put Quebec first comes up, the BQ will just force a vote. They literally have nothing to loose at that point.

You need to read that link, the Bloc have not signed, only Layton and Dion.

The Bloc will do what the Bloc will do. If Harper offers them a better deal he can peel them away from the Libs.

However, part of that deal will involve billions going to PQ.

Whoops, my bad. They did sign that one. But the stimulus is exactly what is needed.

See http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081205.wrcsuite05/BNSt ory/Business/home

and

http://business.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081205.wjobs120 5/BNSto ry/Business/home

Canada needs something, and not Flaterly.

r

hamiltonjdavid: As for the 114:139 stuff, since the coalition depends on the unwavering support of the Bloq to survive, I give it 10 minutes if it actually ends up happening. As soon as anything that doesn't put Quebec first comes up, the BQ will just force a vote. They literally have nothing to loose at that point.

Read the section marked Confidence Votes in the link you posted. The Bloc have only agreed to support confidence motions. They do not have the "unwaivering" support of the Bloc. They have an agreement not to topple the coalition government for 18 months.

All this is moot anyways. Whatever agreements were in place two days ago will have changed significantly depending on what unfolds over the next 7 weeks.

hamiltonjdavid 2008-12-05 01:43:09 PM
"As for the 114:139 stuff, since the coalition depends on the unwavering support of the Bloq to survive, I give it 10 minutes if it actually ends up happening. As soon as anything that doesn't put Quebec first comes up, the BQ will just force a vote. They literally have nothing to loose at that point."

Or we could wait 1 month and watch the government fall in a confidence vote and end up in an election. At which point it will be 3 months (at the soonest mid-April 2009) before we could actually see any action taken on the economic crisis.

Logically speaking the worst thing we can do right now is have another election because that prevents us from getting any action on the financial crisis for several months.

Saying the coalition will be "dependent on the Bloc" is not a logical argument against the coalition. The Bloc has promised the coalition their support on all confidence votes for 2 years. Meaning that we could have a stable government long enough get started on the financial crisis, and get ready to plan for an election.

That isn't to say that the Bloc couldn't break their agreement and bring down the coalition (they could) but that's not in the plan.

tombotia: My Canada includes the province of Quebec, just not it's people.

Way to overgeneralize, dumbass.

Oh well, if this misperception of Quebecers, this incomprehension of Quebec society and the issues surrounding language laws keep hateful, degenerate scum like you from ever visiting Montreal again, I sure won't mind.

Please, by all means, stay in Your Canada. You can visit glorious Winnipeg, cultural beacon Regina, beautiful and green Calgary, exciting Toronto...

As for me, I'll stay in Montreal with all the dumb frogs.

My Canada includes Quebec, and it's people.

I've got nothing but good things to say about the Quebeckers I've met both in and out of the province. (Except the cops, but I was drunk, and I probably shouldn't have antagonized them.)

Generally, I'll open my mouth, try to say something in my pidgeon French, and they will either answer in English, or try to help me out with the French. I think making the effort makes all the difference to the response.

I value Quebec, and it's unique culture. The thing is, that even if they were to separate, I could still make the 8 hour drive to Quebec City for a weekend vacation. It wouldn't be going anywhere.
I could still buy hydro from them, and my newsprint supply wouldn't dry up.

I have a strong feeling that relations in general would be better between an independent Quebec and the ROC than they are now.

If Quebec were to separate , my general feeling would be: "Sorry to see you go, Here's a sandwich for the journey, and don't forget to visit on Thanksgiving. Give me a call if you want to go out for a beer."

However, it would have to be a true separation, not some sort of Sovereignty-Association BS.

As for the Albertans, who are sick of Quebec's whining, I have to say that we in the east are just as sick of your whining. Your regional politics is just as bad or worse than Quebec's. I'll acknowledge that you don't have the representation in the house that Quebec has, which makes your whining a little bit less effective than Quebec's, but how do you propose we fix that. Do you propose that Alberta's ridings be smaller, so somehow an Albertan's vote is worth more?

Besides, you are not under represented. Alberta gave us the Reform party, The Canadian Alliance, and the New Conservative Party.