If it hadn't been for the Southern Baptist Convention, blacks would have got their civil rights back a lot earlier.

There has to be some way of reigning in churches that exist as religious arms of political parties. I don't blame people for wanting to remove tax exemption. I'm not even sure I support tax exemption in the first place.

but if they 'suffer' taxation... doesnt that enable them representation? and they have alot of money folks... is this really a good idea?

FootInMouthDisease: but if they 'suffer' taxation... doesnt that enable them representation? and they have alot of money folks... is this really a good idea?

What was the name of the guy at Brokeback church who was able to make both presidential candidates do a dog-and-pony show on national TV?

They already have that power, it seems only fair they should pay taxes like any other PAC.

Good for the activists!

Sorry oppressed Christians... you can't have your cake and eat it too (or rather, be all loving to your brothers and sisters and then push for their rights to be infringed upon)

MisterTweak:

They already have that power, it seems only fair they should pay taxes like any other PAC.

That's pretty much how I see it. If you're soliciting money or votes on behalf of a candidate, party or initiative, you are just another PAC, no matter how much you love Jesus. PACs are not tax exempt.

In my opinion, we should try to find a way to make their responsibility for taxation retroactive too.

If it's a first offense, I'll be generous and not ask for compound interest on the late payments.

Oh, dear. I'll never hear the end of this from my oppressed Catholic boss.

But otherwise... Excellent. Let them be treated like any other business, including having to follow the government's laws (not their own "Canon" law), property taxes, following labor laws, being unable to demand free labor from their congregants, limiting the amount of money they can legally give to candidates, etc. The Catholic Church alone will be hit hard on property taxes.

But yes - let them put out annual reports detailing their money, submit to audits, and be held to standard business practice. Let's see how much they spend doing "The Lord's Work" and how much they spend on salaries for pastors. Let them be sued the crap out of for hiding abusers in their midst under guise of religious privilege. Churches get a free pass on lots of things. I'd be happy to let them spend their money as they see fit, as long as they operate out in the open.

It was mostly black churches (Baptists are very socially conservatives) that tipped the scales. Not saying I don't encourage the um...discouragement of churches acting overly political, but I have a feeling this won't get very far. Speaking out against largely black groups (like the churches that encouraged blacks to vote in droves for prop 8) doesn't get you that far in this country

I hope they're successful. It would set a great precedent for going after the Catholic church, in light of its "Vote pro-choice, go to hell" stance it took in this past presidential election.

MisterTweak: FootInMouthDisease: but if they 'suffer' taxation... doesnt that enable them representation? and they have alot of money folks... is this really a good idea?

What was the name of the guy at Brokeback church who was able to make both presidential candidates do a dog-and-pony show on national TV?

They already have that power, it seems only fair they should pay taxes like any other PAC.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints -- the Mormons brings in about U$7,000,000,000 per year just in tithing. That's pronounced "Billions." It doesn't include investments or interest gained on the assets they already own. To quote Absolutely Fabulous, "If they make a withdrawal, Switzerland goes third-world."

This is a very powerful and very rich church. The Catholics and Baptists are apoplectic with rage because the Mormons bring $7B a year, and only about 20% of Mormons worldwide pay a full tithe.

-- Ex-Mormon

Forgot to add --

Tax the fark out of these people!

ecmoRandomNumbers: Forgot to add --

Tax the fark out of these people!

Amen.

Militants..pick your flavor.

TheShavingofOccam123: There has to be some way of reigning in churches that exist as religious arms of political parties.

You can't. You just get accused of being an "evangelical activist atheist."

Religion: a free pass for pretty much anything.

I think it's fantastic.

That is really all.

Good.

On a side note, I encourage everyone to see Milk. Really excellent movie.

You lost. Deal with it.

//HAHAHAH!!
//Gander that, goose!

This will go nowhere. It will always go nowhere.

Barakku: It was mostly black churches (Baptists are very socially conservatives) that tipped the scales. Not saying I don't encourage the um...discouragement of churches acting overly political, but I have a feeling this won't get very far. Speaking out against largely black groups (like the churches that encouraged blacks to vote in droves for prop 8) doesn't get you that far in this country

But the financial support for the passage came in a large degree from the Mormon Church.

Did anyone actually read the article? I mean... the WHOLE article. I mean... it's only two paragraphs.

"They almost certainly have not violated their tax exemption," said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, the leading advocacy organization on the issue. "While the tax code has a zero tolerance for endorsements of candidates, the tax code gives wide latitude for churches to engage in discussions of policy matters and moral questions, including when posed as initiatives."

As much as I would enjoy seeing these organizations taxed, if what they did was legal then pushing this angle just looks like a poor attempt at revenge.

As much as I detest churches interfering in politics, particularly in such a despicable way as passing prop 8, I'm even more disturbed by the government using taxes as a speech disincentive. Tax exemption, if we're going to have it, should be based solely on non-profit status, not on the government's judgment of whether or not the institution's activities are desirable.

sarcastrophe: While the tax code has a zero tolerance for endorsements of candidates, the tax code gives wide latitude for churches to engage in discussions of policy matters and moral questions, including when posed as initiatives."

Discuss? Yes.
Essentially give funding to and not disclose it? No.

go see it.

please.

/best movie of the year so far
/gaylinked

FTA
"They almost certainly have not violated their tax exemption," said Barry Lynn, executive director of Americans United for the Separation of Church and State, the leading advocacy organization on the issue. "While the tax code has a zero tolerance for endorsements of candidates, the tax code gives wide latitude for churches to engage in discussions of policy matters and moral questions, including when posed as initiatives."

Honestly, that's pretty much the end of it right there, at least from my POV.
I trust and respect Rev. Lynn, and the above is one of the reasons why.

Find another route pooftahs.

/supports gay marriage & open military service
//protections against harassment are already in place

It's true that about 75% of blacks voted for Prop 8.

But the fact is that, if not even a single black person voted in California, Prop 8 would STILL have passed by a very slim margin. So blacks did not tip the scales.

It was, in fact, the Mormon Church that tipped the scales, by bringing in massive out-of-state fundraising, forcing every Mormon Ward (local church) to read a statement to the congregation to support Prop 8, and encouraging their congregants to give money and time for the initiative.

A very clear violation of the separation between church and state.

I hope that either

a) the Mormon Church loses its tax-exempt status, or

b) the California Constitution is amended, outlawing the practice of Mormonism in the state, or

c) both.

Yeah, sorry, the churches have every right to promote the policies they want. Imagine Planned Parenthood losing nonprofit status for supporting an abortion bill. If the churches get hit, every nonprofit loses.

You can't just stifle a group with taxes because you disagree with the policies they push.

Corn_Fed: outlawing the practice of Mormonism in the state

WTF?

Would this mean the Scientologists would have to pay taxes too?

Just might pay off that national debt if that happens...
=Smidge=

Hell, I'm in favor of taking away the tax exempt status of ALL churches.

The bigotry demonstrated by those opposing Prop 8 in the time since the election has simply amazed me. It's ten-fold any bigotry exhibited by any organization that supported it, and this absurd scheme is just one example.

As an agnostic deist animist, I fully support this cause.

/yes, it's supposed to be puzzling

ZachF81: The bigotry demonstrated by those opposing Prop 8 in the time since the election has simply amazed me. It's ten-fold any bigotry exhibited by any organization that supported it, and this absurd scheme is just one example.

Oh wahhhh. What a big baby you are.

Corn_Fed: It's true that about 75% of blacks voted for Prop 8.

But the fact is that, if not even a single black person voted in California, Prop 8 would STILL have passed by a very slim margin. So blacks did not tip the scales.

It was, in fact, the Mormon Church that tipped the scales, by bringing in massive out-of-state fundraising, forcing every Mormon Ward (local church) to read a statement to the congregation to support Prop 8, and encouraging their congregants to give money and time for the initiative.

A very clear violation of the separation between church and state.

I hope that either

a) the Mormon Church loses its tax-exempt status, or

b) the California Constitution is amended, outlawing the practice of Mormonism in the state, or

c) both.

How is fundraising a violation of the separation of Church and State, exactly?

I'm no fan of Prop 8, but I'm curious to know your logic.

Religion is out of control and causing far more harm than good. People should avoid all religion like the plague. The tax exempt status is making them all staggeringly rich. They are using their wealth and power to cover up their crimes and take control of society through the political process.

The tax exempt status of all religious groups needs to be removed in the United States now. These religious people are stupid and dangerous and completely undeserving of any tax exemption.

ZachF81: The bigotry demonstrated by those opposing Prop 8 in the time since the election has simply amazed me. It's ten-fold any bigotry exhibited by any organization that supported it, and this absurd scheme is just one example.

holiday_inn_in_cambodia: go see it.

please.

/best movie of the year so far
/gaylinked

2nd best movie.

/TDK still better

I'd have to disagree with anyone wanting to make only a particular church lose tax-exempt status. That's just a clearly a breach of the First Amendment establishment clause and it's just never going to fly. Furthermore, taxing one church and not others just causes a backlash later when those churches start complaining about their discrimination and they start getting undue sympathy and more funds as a result.

Either all churches pay taxes or none. I'd prefer all paid. It's not like we have to pretend churches don't play a part in politics, let's just go ahead and make it an offical political establishment.

Churchill2004: As much as I detest churches interfering in politics, particularly in such a despicable way as passing prop 8, I'm even more disturbed by the government using taxes as a speech disincentive. Tax exemption, if we're going to have it, should be based solely on non-profit status, not on the government's judgment of whether or not the institution's activities are desirable.

While I agree with you, I just want to make it clear that I think it should definitely possible for a non-profit to lose its tax exemption by being too political. No?

Biological Ali:

A small amount of the population consists of bigots, who supported prop 8 simply because they have unexplainable hatred for gays and what gays stand for.

A larger amount of the population consists of bigots, who are attacking the church because they hate it, and hate what it stands for.

Yes, there is bigotry on both sides, even yours.

Gay people sure are uppity

ZachF81: A larger amount of the population consists of bigots, who are attacking the church because they hate it, and hate what it stands for.

Why is it bigoted to dislike a group because of an idea they hold? That's done all the time.

I would protest and boycott any group which campaigned against equal rights for gay people - I don't care if its a religion or not.

ZachF81: A larger amount of the population consists of bigots, who are attacking the churches that supported Prop 8 because they hate it, and hate what it stands for.

FTFY

And hostility towards those supported a move to take away one's rights is not 'bigotry'.

Barakku: It was mostly black churches (Baptists are very socially conservatives) that tipped the scales. Not saying I don't encourage the um...discouragement of churches acting overly political, but I have a feeling this won't get very far. Speaking out against largely black groups (like the churches that encouraged blacks to vote in droves for prop 8) doesn't get you that far in this country

I could be wrong but while blacks overwhelmingly supported Prop8, they didn't have close to the numbers of people who could have tipped the scales, as you put it.

ZachF81: A larger amount of the population consists of bigots, who are attacking the church because they hate it, and hate what it stands for.

Yes, they hate bigotry against gays.

Not hard to figure out.

Assuming you've got a brain, moran.

DamnYankees: While I agree with you, I just want to make it clear that I think it should definitely possible for a non-profit to lose its tax exemption by being too political. No?

Absolutely not, because I don't want the government to have the power to decide what's "too political". Tax-exempt status should in no way be based on the government's subjective judgment of the desirability of the group's actions.

The American Revolution was in large part stirred up from the pulpit (and also a good deal of anonymous political speech- another thing that's increasingly illegal now). I dislike religious interference in politics because I dislike religion, but I see no reason why groups spouting supernatural nonsense should be treated any differently other the law in any way. The government should not interfere with the free flow of ideas in the public discourse like this.

1) Stick cocks in churchgoers' posteriors
2) ???
3) AIDS

Churchill2004: Absolutely not, because I don't want the government to have the power to decide what's "too political". Tax-exempt status should in no way be based on the government's subjective judgment of the desirability of the group's actions.

Ok, maybe we need to take a step back.

What's the point of exempting non-profits from taxes? And why are church's considered non-profits?

I'm confused about the basic foundations of this system.

DamnYankees: holiday_inn_in_cambodia: go see it.

please.

/best movie of the year so far
/gaylinked

2nd best movie.

/TDK still better


nah if they had made batman gay it would have been the best

ZachF81: Biological Ali:

A small amount of the population consists of bigots, who supported prop 8 simply because they have unexplainable hatred for gays and what gays stand for.

A larger amount of the population consists of bigots, who are attacking the church because they hate it, and hate what it stands for.

Yes, there is bigotry on both sides, even yours.

But what the church stands for is BIGOTRY! Don't you get it? Prop 8 takes away these peoples rights, it HARMS THEM! Hating bigotry is not bigotry.

Churchill2004: I see no reason why groups spouting supernatural nonsense should be treated any differently other the law in any way. The government should not interfere with the free flow of ideas in the public discourse like this.

So you're saying they should have to pay taxes like everyone else?

DamnYankees: Ok, maybe we need to take a step back.

What's the point of exempting non-profits from taxes? And why are church's considered non-profits?

I'm confused about the basic foundations of this system.

Taxation is a function of force and it is argued that it violates the 1st Amendment's protections for freedom of religion.

/that's my understanding