Because god forbid you farking Puritans ever understand anything humanitarian like harm reduction.

ZOMG EUROPEAN SOCIALISTS! The government is getting involved in the free market of illicit drugs!!!!!

I just realized that prescribed ostracism hasn't really worked, has it?

I predict that this will be a well thought out discussion with pleasant discourse regarding the legality and nature of civil liberty with regards to illicit substances.

soze: Because god forbid you farking Puritans ever understand anything humanitarian like harm reduction.

I'd also see this more as a way to reduce the money flooding the Taliban's coffers.

I'm 100% for it. I wonder why our government allows Methadone maintenance but criticizes their Heroin program. If anything, Heroin would work better than methadone {imo}. I read TFA a second time, but I don't get it. Maybe I shouldn't give our gov. any ideas, huh.

soze: Because god forbid you farking Puritans ever understand anything humanitarian like harm reduction.

Sigh. So many to liquidate, so little time.

michaeld5: So many to liquidate, so little time.

You're disagreeing or agreeing?

For the "legalize all drugs, regardless" crowd.

Heroin: Not the same as marijuana.

One is truly destructive. The other... just makes you stupid.

DuncanMhor -- I think michaeld5 is, doing neither -- rather making a list :)

Legalize yes, subsidize no.

Richard Saunders: For the "legalize all drugs, regardless" crowd.

Heroin: Not the same as marijuana.

One is truly destructive. The other... just makes you stupid.

Things that are the same:

Artificial demand due to the "illicit" nature of the drugs.

Drain on the economy, since they are by definition part of a black market.

Attractiveness to organised crime as an income stream.

Irrational response to harm reduction by those that inject moralism into attempts to minimise harm.

Richard Saunders: For the "legalize all drugs, regardless" crowd.

Heroin: Not the same as marijuana.

One is truly destructive. The other... just makes you stupid.

Not really. The problem, as always is abuse of drugs, not the drug itself. While heroin can be more chemically addictive and destructive, the real problem is the destructive nature of addiction. Try telling the spouse of an alcoholic that their addiction isn't as destructive as a heroin junkie and see how far that gets you...

The problem with drug prohibition is that it increases the social stigma and legal barriers to getting help, while placing control of quality and supply in the hands of criminals. That's the issue, not addiction. While complete legalisation of heroin on equal footing with alcohol would be stupid, prohibition isn't working either.

Richard Saunders: For the "legalize all drugs, regardless" crowd.

Heroin: Not the same as marijuana.

One is truly destructive. The other... just makes you stupid.

The problem is, a lot of pot smokers claim that the civil liberties angle, and say that the government shouldn't be allowed to regulate what they put in their body.

If they want to make that argument, they cannot disallow heroin, pcp, meth, et all from being legalized under the same auspices.

Pot smokers can't say, "The government totally shouldn't control what we put in our bodies, as long as its what I want to put in my body, but like, other drugs don't count, man."

Lucidz: I predict that this will be a well thought out discussion with pleasant discourse regarding the legality and nature of civil liberty with regards to illicit substances.

Don't quit your day job.

thenewflesh: Not really. The problem, as always is abuse of drugs, not the drug itself. While heroin can be more chemically addictive and destructive, the real problem is the destructive nature of addiction. Try telling the spouse of an alcoholic that their addiction isn't as destructive as a heroin junkie and see how far that gets you...

So let's just outlaw addicts.

/line forms to the left.

Lock an addict in a room

Give him a phone and a syringe full of a lethal liquid.

Tell him the phone is to contact a person who can come help him break his habit.

Tell him the syringe is filled with *insert drug of choice*

Return in an hour.

Good! I hope all drug strategies eventually work like this. If it's not going to go away, legalise it, tax it, and stop victimising the users.

Approve

DuncanMhor Re: Things that are the same, sure, but I'm hoping you're not assuming my post was an effort towards judgment . Having known, and counseled addicts of many substances, mine was an observation. I've yet to meet or known of a smoker of "the weed" that resorted to crime, prostitution, etc... or died. Whereas with heroin....well... it surely feels good, but the end effect, well, it ain't good.

thenewflesh - Mine was just a statement that I felt needed to be made before the usual proletariat call for legalization occurred. To look at each substance individually, alcohol has definitely causes/done the most harm. Should it be outlawed? Prohibition didn't work. Should, let's say, heroin or cocaine be legalized? Arguments can be made on both sides. Why allow these known destructive substances a government sanctioned/permitted inroad to our society?

Whatever fault there may be, this nation was built on whiskey and tobacco. One, smoking, is on the "outs" as being socially acceptable. Liquor, on the otherhand, as long as it helps me get laid...ain't going nowhere.

As to your Weeners of "Not really," well...I beg to differ. If nothing else, consider the overall health of your average heroin user vs. that of a "burnout." As a former medical professional, I've worked hard to save many a heroin addict from certain/eventual death, whereas with most pot-heads, I just had to stitch 'em up after they did something really, really stupid.

Lucidz - I agree and it's why I posted what I did. A libertarian view is fine. I'm in favor of it, personally, but therein lies the reality. Libertarianism is all about personal responsibility. If one chooses that path, one must be willing to suffer the consequences of their decisions. Even in a society that disagrees with them.

Not available for comment



Approves

Swampthing in Korea: Lock an addict in a room

Give him a phone and a syringe full of a lethal liquid.

Tell him the phone is to contact a person who can come help him break his habit.

Tell him the syringe is filled with *insert drug of choice*

Return in an hour.

Why stop there? Why not use the same method for all undesirables? You know, like they used to do in another country not too long ago..

FTA: It has won wide support within Switzerland since it began 14 years ago to eliminate scenes of large groups of drug users shooting up openly in parks that marred Swiss cities in the 1980s and 1990s.

Ah, "Needle Park!" That was the solution before, wasn't it? Didn't turn out so splendidly.

Brinnerhosgrannen: Swampthing in Korea: Lock an addict in a room

Give him a phone and a syringe full of a lethal liquid.

Tell him the phone is to contact a person who can come help him break his habit.

Tell him the syringe is filled with *insert drug of choice*

Return in an hour.

Why stop there? Why not use the same method for all undesirables? You know, like they used to do in another country not too long ago..

Russia?

Does not approve

Done. Resolved and passed in Austin 40 years ago at the county democratic convention. What took die Schweiz so long?

"Why do you think they call it dope, anyway?"

/the lawn is immaculately groomed...get off

Lucidz: I predict that this will be a well thought out discussion with pleasant discourse regarding the legality and nature of civil liberty with regards to illicit substances.

Dang, I was hoping it was gonna be a pure D bashing of stupid junkies....oh well....

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Lucidz: I predict that this will be a well thought out discussion with pleasant discourse regarding the legality and nature of civil liberty with regards to illicit substances.

Dang, I was hoping it was gonna be a pure D bashing of stupid junkies....oh well....

Well it IS still early on a sunday.

Lucidz: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Lucidz: I predict that this will be a well thought out discussion with pleasant discourse regarding the legality and nature of civil liberty with regards to illicit substances.

Dang, I was hoping it was gonna be a pure D bashing of stupid junkies....oh well....

Well it IS still early on a sunday.

Well, I gotta be at the gym in 26 minutes, so lets get it going....

Lt. Cheese Weasel: Lucidz: Lt. Cheese Weasel: Lucidz: I predict that this will be a well thought out discussion with pleasant discourse regarding the legality and nature of civil liberty with regards to illicit substances.

Dang, I was hoping it was gonna be a pure D bashing of stupid junkies....oh well....

Well it IS still early on a sunday.

Well, I gotta be at the gym in 26 minutes, so lets get it going....

I guess this is the point where I could say something along the lines of, stupid pot smokers, why can't you see that your drug is just a crutch to deal with your sad pathetic life. Following that post, I'll have another sip of Evan Williams. So what if its not 10 am yet!

Lucidz

I'll drink to that (beer for me this morning).

/As I mentioned earlier, if it helps me get laid...

Richard Saunders: Lucidz

I'll drink to that (beer for me this morning).

/As I mentioned earlier, if it helps me get laid...

I met my fiance in a bar, and we're getting married in a few months, so technically, alcohol helped me never get laid again.

/only drink beer when I'm dehydrated :D

This sounds like a good idea to me. Harm reduction - yes. Off the streets and into some form of treatment, very good. The cost is lower than having to deal with illnesses that come from street drug use. The reduction in crime and death makes sense too.

Let's face it. Some people, with support and programming CAN beat the addiction. Some never will. For those some, recognising that there remains a problem, a physical problem and treating that improves the quality of life for them and their neighbours.

I speak from sad experience here. My brother's g/f (and mother of my nephew) was drug-addicted and worked the streets of Vancouver. She tried rehab more than once, without success. She was murdered. Programming like this, although it might not have made her a non-addict, might have kept her alive - not doing dangerous things to get the drugs that she was addicted to. Maybe in time she could have beaten the addiction. But she won't have the chance.

/Non-addict brother got Hep C from her
//Yes, for any Canadians who wonder, her DNA was found at the Picktons' property.

Squidgilum: Ah, "Needle Park!" That was the solution before, wasn't it? Didn't turn out so splendidly.

Yes, Needle Park was a horrible idea with plenty of unintended consequences. However, unlike the US, when something doesn't work, they try something else.

Their methods or dealing with Heroin addicts are nothing shot of massive success. Crime dropped 60%, Hepatitis and AIDS cases are at an all time low, the number of new addicts has seen a sharp decline as well, and about a third of patients have successfully quit heroin.

Swampthing in Korea: Lock an addict in a room

Give him a phone and a syringe full of a lethal liquid.

Tell him the phone is to contact a person who can come help him break his habit.

Tell him the syringe is filled with *insert drug of choice*

Return in an hour.

Damn it, you told me this was pure liquid caffeine!

Lucidz: Richard Saunders: For the "legalize all drugs, regardless" crowd.

Heroin: Not the same as marijuana.

One is truly destructive. The other... just makes you stupid.

The problem is, a lot of pot smokers claim that the civil liberties angle, and say that the government shouldn't be allowed to regulate what they put in their body.

If they want to make that argument, they cannot disallow heroin, pcp, meth, et all from being legalized under the same auspices.

Pot smokers can't say, "The government totally shouldn't control what we put in our bodies, as long as its what I want to put in my body, but like, other drugs don't count, man."

Yeah, only alcohol drinkers can say that, right?

stewbert: Lucidz: Richard Saunders: For the "legalize all drugs, regardless" crowd.

Heroin: Not the same as marijuana.

One is truly destructive. The other... just makes you stupid.

The problem is, a lot of pot smokers claim that the civil liberties angle, and say that the government shouldn't be allowed to regulate what they put in their body.

If they want to make that argument, they cannot disallow heroin, pcp, meth, et all from being legalized under the same auspices.

Pot smokers can't say, "The government totally shouldn't control what we put in our bodies, as long as its what I want to put in my body, but like, other drugs don't count, man."

Yeah, only alcohol drinkers can say that, right?

And caffeine drinkers, and cigarettes smokers, and people who eat too much sugar....
What's your point?

On a twinkie and marijuana fueled crime spree, I broke into 6 houses and stole enough to buy a case of Ho-Hos and a pack of Marlboros. Let me tell you, between the cigarettes, sugar and weed, I was so high I couldn't remember who I was.

/doesn't have the same ring, does it?

One point: Heroin is *NOT* the destructive drug it's being portrayed as in this thread. It has a major addiction problem but otherwise has a very good safety profile. It's quite possible for someone to live a normal life on heroin if high quality stuff is available at a reasonable price.

The damage from "heroin" is really damage from impurities and from the lifestyle needed to obtain one's fixes.

When it's pure and affordable you don't see those problems--look at chronic pain patients. You do tend to see some crime with them but look at what they are actually doing--ensuring their supply and fighting a paranoid system that won't give them enough.

If something is very important to a reasonable existence for you and you know that the supply might be interfered with for arbitrary and insane reasons wouldn't you be inclined to take steps to protect yourself from a loss of supply??

Actually heroin is pretty safe when it's a known quantity. It's the illegal bits of it, like stealing to get more of it, and not knowing what you're buying, plus the unsavoury characters you have to hand around with.

The other bad things are the needles and unsanitariness, and the erractic supply and wildly varying doses.Addicts tend to shoot up heroin in unknown amounts, in filthy conditions, when they're desperate. That's what causes problems.

Weirdly enough, heroin - safe, medical heroin - has few long term medical consequences. Of course, there's withdrawl if you stop taking it. The side effects, even euphoria, tend to be tolerated rapidly (which is why addicts tend to bump up the dose).

I t will make you nauseous, and itchy, but those are temporay effects that go along with taking the drug, and don't last any longer. Unlike say stomach ulcers from asprin, or NSAIDs, or liver damage from Tylenol.

It doesn't cause liver damage, cancer, or have any really bad outcomes.

You could put someone on a a couple of small doeses of heroin a day for the rest of their life, and nothing bad would happen.

Look it up.

Loren: If something is very important to a reasonable existence for you and you know that the supply might be interfered with for arbitrary and insane reasons wouldn't you be inclined to take steps to protect yourself from a loss of supply??

Why, yes. You make perfect sense. This is, in fact why I keep 50 old ladies hostage in my basement, for I desire geriatric sex to be very important to my reasonable existence.

Weldon51: Actually heroin is pretty safe when it's a known quantity. It's the illegal bits of it, like stealing to get more of it, and not knowing what you're buying, plus the unsavoury characters you have to hand around with.

The other bad things are the needles and unsanitariness, and the erractic supply and wildly varying doses.Addicts tend to shoot up heroin in unknown amounts, in filthy conditions, when they're desperate. That's what causes problems.

Weirdly enough, heroin - safe, medical heroin - has few long term medical consequences. Of course, there's withdrawl if you stop taking it. The side effects, even euphoria, tend to be tolerated rapidly (which is why addicts tend to bump up the dose).

I t will make you nauseous, and itchy, but those are temporay effects that go along with taking the drug, and don't last any longer. Unlike say stomach ulcers from asprin, or NSAIDs, or liver damage from Tylenol.

It doesn't cause liver damage, cancer, or have any really bad outcomes.

You could put someone on a a couple of small doeses of heroin a day for the rest of their life, and nothing bad would happen.

Look it up.

That's true, and I'd add that many people will wind up taking some form of opiate painkiller for a sizable percentage of their life. All 4 of my grandparents were on Oxycodone and Hydrocodone for that last 10-20 years of their lives. Those drugs are very, very similar to heroin.

American Cities like Baltimore should be taking a very long hard look at this program. When I lived in Baltimore I was mugged 3 times by junkies, as were many people I went to school with. Lots of right wingers love to yell "I'm not going to pay for some junkies habit!", well guess what... you are. Either via programs like this, or at the end of a gun.

Weldon51

You could put someone on a a couple of small doeses of heroin a day for the rest of their life, and nothing bad would happen.

Look it up.

Nothing bad except for their dependence on heroin for the rest of their drug addicted life. But thats good right?


/I support decriminalization of drugs, but I dont suport drug use.
// Freedom of all choices is quite important tome.

The last couple of posts have been 100% right on.


/Used to shoot heroin
//Clean for a year

mrpants5587: The last couple of posts have been 100% right on.


/Used to shoot heroin
//Clean for a year

Congrats, I've known a few people that are now clean. It can be a long and hard road and takes a strong will. You should be very proud of yourself for having the strength to persevere.

Darth Shatner: Nothing bad except for their dependence on heroin for the rest of their drug addicted life. But thats good right?

We do the same thing for Seniors with the Medicare prescription drug coverage.

It's either that or spend $40,000 per year locking them up in jail, having them spread AIDS, Hepatitis, etc, AND having to put up with the crime they commit to get their black market drugs.

On another note, there is a good portion of addicts who want to quit, but can't break the cycle.

So in the end, we can either have:

An unemployed drug addict stealing $500 worth of property per day for their habit via the black market, spreading infectious diseases, and tying up the court systems.

A drug addict who works a job unloading UPS trucks, spends $5 per day going to a supervised injection sight to get their clean needle and pharmaceutical grade heroin, who is healthy and not sharing needles, and can be open about their problem and easily seek help to wean themselves off the drugs if they want to.

I wonder what solution is worse?

Mass produced pharmaceutical Heroin is as cheap as Aspirin, so it's not like the drugs are going to cost allot.

Dancing with Mr. D.?

/DNRTFA

Wait, none of these drugs is particularly great.

If someone takes opiates regularly, their ability to produce endogenous opiates is reduced. Some studies also suggest exogenous opiates weaken the immune system. Aside from the dependence, tolerance and addiction...

Weed: lesions on DNA.

Alcohol: cirrhosis, FAS, etc.

Crosshair: I wonder what solution is worse?

Therein lies the fundamental fallacy of the prohibitionists. (And I believe that many prohibitionists want to help addicts, they're not all puritans).

The case for prohibition is made as a choice between using heroin and not using heroin, whereas the reality is a choice between using heroin legally and using illegally. Prohibition hasn't stopped drug use (in fact there's evidence that use of heroin increased because of prohibition), but it has made drug use dangerous and expensive and it has forced addicts into the hands of criminals.

Drug use leading to addiction is rare, even heroin has only a 13.4% addiction rate amongst users. Legalising drug use and treating addiction as a medical condition is the only practical solution.