Don't see many Eduardo Dinero references around here.

So was it police or gunmen, make up your mind Subby.

Peaceboy: Don't see many Eduardo Dinero references around here.

That's no shiat. Good one smitty!

The homicides were the latest of hundreds of killings in the city, where drug violence has taken a heavy toll during Mexico's nationwide crackdown on drug cartels that supply U.S. consumers.

Thank god they weren't Americans. If that were the case we may have to do something about the network of drug suppliers.

*sees headline* Bet $100 it's CJ. *clicks link* Yup, CJ. That place almost makes Darfur look sane.

Occam's Chainsaw: Yup, CJ. That place almost makes Darfur look sane.

Ah, memories. Like watching a dealer shoot at a cop car and the entire quad get shut down by Federales with M-16's.

Drank a lot of Tecate sitting in that strip club till dawn waiting for the streets to clear.

I can't wait to enter a continental union with Mexico.

Lame I was expecting something to top the heads on stakes outside polics stations

Yes but as soon as these gunmen cross over the border, they're innocent victims of society who work hard to make a living for their family all while receiving US government hand-outs.

Did I mention their kids get free college too?

this shiat aint funny assholes.

Some of you need to check out El Paso...it's a US city in name only.
And over the river in Ciudad Juarez is like something out of "Escape from New York."
Fun stuff.

Gimme Some Water! Nicely played.

That's right kids, keep consuming drugs without making them legal and this is what you get. You say Mexicans don't do shiat about the crimes? Well you aren't doing shiat about legalization. Or maybe you didn't read this part of the article: "crackdown on drug cartels that supply U.S. consumers."

We're all part of this nasty thing, aren't we?

I figured this was in Tijuana.

The headline made me imagine the cartel gunmen shooting a bunch of rival dealers within sight of the border as some sort of "fark you" gesture to the US Border Patrol. Shooting up some restaurant in CJ is just, well, normal.

/farking cartels, man

In other news, there's an upscale neighborhood of Ciudad Juarez.

OH!

Gimme some Water!

Well played Subby, well played indeed.

Nothing but lawless chaos down there. We got a serious problem with Mexico and 20 million illegal refugees.

Michaeld5 come back to El Paso. We were only making fun of your wife, judging from the picture.

Oh. Just your girlfriend.

Awkward.

Completely unimpressed.

thesharkman

Sorry, you beat me to it.

Now I've got that damn Marty Robbins song going over and over in my head.

I thought the 7 8 9 yesterday wouldn't be topped for a while. Excellent work subby. You get my +1.

Britney Spear's Speculum: Yes but as soon as these gunmen cross over the border, they're innocent victims of society who work hard to make a living for their family all while receiving US government hand-outs.

Did I mention their kids get free college too?



'...and badges too'.

He shot an eight? That's like at least 4 over par.

It's OK - Hillary has already promised to make them all citizens.

Day_Old_Dutchie Quote 2008-11-30 08:42:23 AM
Now I've got that damn Marty Robbins song going over and over in my head.

I live a few miles from that "Rosa's Cantina" still haven seen it. I am so lazy.

Mexico was the place to go up until a couple of years ago, good food, shopping. Now people are being slaughtered ever day. The neighbors little boy was killed earlier this summer there, scary stuff. It's turning into Afghanistan over there.

ThePastafarian: That's right kids, keep consuming drugs without making them legal and this is what you get. You say Mexicans don't do shiat about the crimes? Well you aren't doing shiat about legalization. Or maybe you didn't read this part of the article: "crackdown on drug cartels that supply U.S. consumers."

We're all part of this nasty thing, aren't we?

This.

GaryPDX: Nothing but lawless chaos down there. We got a serious problem with Mexico and 20 million illegal refugees.

Gary is right. We should bankrupt them all by allowing Americans to abuse "legal" prescription drugs, like what Rush Limbaugh did. Of course we would still have to do some de-criminalizing, so good Americans like Rush wouldn't have to doctor-shop or buy from his illegal-alien housekeeper and her black-market ring of suppliers, thus supporting the very cartels we are speaking of. There is also the oxycodone-induced deafness to deal with, but the House Ear Institute is on it.

Yes but as soon as these gunmen cross over the border, they're innocent victims of society who work hard to make a living for their family all while receiving US government hand-outs.

Did I mention their kids get free college too?

Is the whole immigration EVERYBODY PANIC thing starting up again? Because it didn't really work out as a wedge issue in 2006. As a matter of fact, you lost the Hispanic vote becuase of your assumption that every brown-skinned person you see on the street is some sort of hardened, drug-dealing, cartel-running illegal immigrant.

Not every hispanic you see in the US was born in latin america.
Not every first generation hispanic immigrant is here illegaly.
Not every illegal immigrant is a hardened criminal (a vast majority would rather lay low and not get deported back).

When you can separate your illogical hate from your political opinions, maybe we'll talk.

DrRatchet: Gary is right. We should bankrupt them all by allowing Americans to abuse "legal" prescription drugs, like what Rush Limbaugh did. Of course we would still have to do some de-criminalizing, so good Americans like Rush wouldn't have to doctor-shop or buy from his illegal-alien housekeeper and her black-market ring of suppliers, thus supporting the very cartels we are speaking of. There is also the oxycodone-induced deafness to deal with, but the House Ear Institute is on it.

Give Gary a break. He's just lost 20 months worth of arguments from the election/Obama threads. He's lost, and looking for another issue on the Politics tab where he can be a self-righteous, judgmental, bigoted asshole. Immigration threads will be a good fit for him.

And even though this isn't an immigration thread, it's related to Mexico, so the asshole conservatives looking for an outlet for their ignorance have to take it as the closest thing to an immigration threads to spew their rationalizations and generalizations. Hell, I will bet you if you start a thread on nachos, a half dozen farkers will show up and complain about the 20 million hardened criminals that crossed the border illegaly. Cuz nachos are from Mexico, right?

/or maybe a thread about Cesar Salad.

I thought this was pretty much just known as "Tuesday" in any Mexican border town.

I was just playing this game so I'm getting a kick out of these replies

Prohibition is so much fun. Let's keep it goin'!

michaeld5: Some of you need to check out El Paso...it's a US city in name only.
And over the river in Ciudad Juarez is like something out of "Escape from New York."
Fun stuff.

ShankatsuForte: I was just playing this game so I'm getting a kick out of these replies


Escape from Juarez?

/Why not?

America is the problem in this situation.

We buy the drugs and we provide the guns.

It is estimated that this year the death toll from drug violence will exceed 3,000.

In the month of Aug. alone, 71 police officers were killed. It is not uncommon to find their bodies with their heads cut off.

Everyone that's toking and snorting and shooting up here in America is responsible for the mass killing and suffering that is happening in Mexico.

GoSurfing: thesharkman

Sorry, you beat me to it.

That's alright. Nice to see people pick up on the reference. For you kids out there Eddie Dinero did a few good songs that you don't get to hear on the radio all the time.

gtomako:

Everyone that's toking and snorting and shooting up here in America is responsible for the mass killing and suffering that is happening in Mexico.

No true "toker" smokes shiat from Mexico.

Everyone that's toking and snorting and shooting up here in America is responsible

Who in the hell buys Mexican weed anymore?

Not every hispanic you see in the US was born in latin america.
Not EVERY one, but stereotypes exist for a reason.

Not every first generation hispanic immigrant is here illegally.
A true statement. Lets modify it for a little more accuracy: Not every first generation non-Mexican Hispanic immigrant is here illegally. The percentage of legal Mexican Hispanic immigrants is fairly low, however. (As in, less than 20 per cent.)


Not every illegal immigrant is a hardened criminal (a vast majority would rather lay low and not get deported back).
Now, this is just a rediculous statement. By definition, illegal immigrants are criminals - else they would not be here illegally. By admitting that they are "lay[ing] low", you admit that they have violated a law, and further admit that they should "get deported back".

When you can phrase a coherent argument concerning all aspects of immigration, cross-border trade and tourism, and so-called "guest-worker" status, that do not involve appeals to emotion, please participate. Otherwise, well, .... you show that your emotions outweigh reason and logic.

/yes, there will be a number 6 dance later on

I was expecting more Fist Full of Dollars pics.

Slug2468: So was it police or gunmen, make up your mind Subby.

Same difference in bad parts of Mexico.

rga184: Yes but as soon as these gunmen cross over the border, they're innocent victims of society who work hard to make a living for their family all while receiving US government hand-outs.

Did I mention their kids get free college too?

Is the whole immigration EVERYBODY PANIC thing starting up again? Because it didn't really work out as a wedge issue in 2006. As a matter of fact, you lost the Hispanic vote becuase of your assumption that every brown-skinned person you see on the street is some sort of hardened, drug-dealing, cartel-running illegal immigrant.

Not every hispanic you see in the US was born in latin america.
Not every first generation hispanic immigrant is here illegaly.
Not every illegal immigrant is a hardened criminal (a vast majority would rather lay low and not get deported back).

When you can separate your illogical hate from your political opinions, maybe we'll talk.

You're from Michigan huh? Far far away from Mexico where the realities of illegal immigration don't touch your life on a daily/weekly basis. Good call.

Blood In The Water: Not every hispanic you see in the US was born in latin america.
Not EVERY one, but stereotypes exist for a reason.

Is that so? Are you implying that there are more first generation immigrants from latin america than second generation?

Think before you answer this, because you're being quite ignorant. Think about the families that have lived in California and Texas for generation after generation. If you don't think they number in the millions, and far outnumber the number of first generation immigrants (legal or illegal), you're quite mistaken.

A true statement. Lets modify it for a little more accuracy: Not every first generation non-Mexican Hispanic immigrant is here illegally. The percentage of legal Mexican Hispanic immigrants is fairly low, however. (As in, less than 20 per cent.)

Have any sources to back that up? I'm not saying you're lying, but I'm having a hard time believing you didn't pull that number out of your arse without seeing some CREDIBLE sources first.

Blood In The Water: Now, this is just a rediculous statement. By definition, illegal immigrants are criminals - else they would not be here illegally. By admitting that they are "lay[ing] low", you admit that they have violated a law, and further admit that they should "get deported back".

When you can phrase a coherent argument concerning all aspects of immigration, cross-border trade and tourism, and so-called "guest-worker" status, that do not involve appeals to emotion, please participate. Otherwise, well, .... you show that your emotions outweigh reason and logic.

So, they committed a misdemeanor by crossing the border illegaly. That makes them a criminal?

Ever speed? You're a criminal.

Ever take a pen from work? You're a criminal.

Ever cheat on your taxes? You're a criminal.

Ever sneak in produce after a trip abroad? You're a criminal.

We can go by your definition if you like. We're all criminals.

You accuse me of not separating my emotions from the argument, but I insist that those who want to villify immigrants are doing just that. The problem is that their emotions are tied to xenophobia and prejuidice.

Most people hear criminal and think of bank robbers or that big guy in a leather jacket that slaps around women and gets into fights at bars before he steals a car and drops it off at a chop shop.

Somebody who hops a border or overstays a visa and works 12 hours a day washing dishes might have broken the law, but you very well know that the two people I've described are in no way similar.

So why don't YOU separate your emotions from the argument and try to use terminology that allows everybody to talk about the issue without branding illegal immigrants as either poor innocent victims or evil hardened criminals? I don't agree with either one, but the latter happens so often on fark that I often end up trying my best just to get people not to villify immigrants and see them as evil scourges of some sort. They're people, just like you, just like me. They may have broken a couple of laws and they should be accountable to that (no argument from me there), but to brand them as criminals as you would brand any asswipe doing 5-10 for armed robbery is to purposefully frame the argument in a way that paints them as terrible people. The fact is, most of them are not. If you can't at least acknowledge that, then I guess we have nothing to talk about.

EdNortonsTwin: You're from Michigan huh? Far far away from Mexico where the realities of illegal immigration don't touch your life on a daily/weekly basis. Good call.

cute.

80-100K hispanics in grand rapids alone. have no idea how many of them are here legally or illegally, but I sure ran across a fair number working in clinics both there and in lansing for the last four or five summers, you ignorant twit.

where there's industry or farming, there's also going to be immigrants. You think they're all happy to stay in Texas or Arizona when there's cherries, blueberries, tomatoes, apples, and corn to pick in places like Michigan?

do yourself a favor. try talking out of your mouth for a change, cuz other orifices aren't working out so well for ya.

We're winning the War on Drugs!

rga184: Is the whole immigration EVERYBODY PANIC thing starting up again? Because it didn't really work out as a wedge issue in 2006. As a matter of fact, you lost the Hispanic vote becuase of your assumption that every brown-skinned person you see on the street is some sort of hardened, drug-dealing, cartel-running illegal immigrant.

Not every hispanic you see in the US was born in latin america.
Not every first generation hispanic immigrant is here illegaly.
Not every illegal immigrant is a hardened criminal (a vast majority would rather lay low and not get deported back).

When you can separate your illogical hate from your political opinions, maybe we'll talk.

Here's the problem as I see it, before any of you non-bigots start accusing me of shiat.

I acknowledge that illegal immigration is a problem. I acknowledge that it taxes communities at the local level, that it creates a lower class of worker who cannot protects their rights. I acknowledge that it allows for a portion of our GDP to go untaxed, therefore lowering tax revenue at the local and national level.

I won't argue that.

What I will argue, and argue every day here on fark is the idea that every immigrant you see here is somehow an evil drug dealer intent on ruining your life (as was implied by the initial comment I responded to). That, I will not agree with.

I was born in Mexico (for the sake of full disclosure), and yet I still have my qualms about my former countrymen (recently became a US citizen). My dad moved his clinic to a different building a few years back. It was a nice building until his overwhelmingly hispanic population came around and pulled wallpaper out of the walls, scratched their girlfriend's name on the handrail, and pulled letters off signs. I still see a lot of machismo, and I still see a lot of attitudes that studying and dressing appropriately is somehow equivalent to selling out. So you can stop right now before you accuse me of saying that hispanic immigrants are all lily-white innocents. I know the hispanic community better than probably any of you. I guarantee it.

So yeah, I can see some of the things you guys are complaining about. But I also see how hard they work, I also see how they probably eat dinner as a family and take care of their elderly much more often than most american families. I also see how their work "laying low" makes your grocery shopping or restaurant going experience largely possible with the cost and level of efficiency you're used to. I also see how they made the building boom possible, and how they have become instrumental in the rebuilding of New Orleans and other places ravaged by disaster that simply don't have the manpower to supply labor on their own. I also see that they are not that different from me in most other ways. They love their families, they worry about the cost of gas and putting food on the table. They hesitate to miss work for a Dr's appointment just like you and me, and they get shiat-scared when they get a scary diagnosis just like you and me. So forgive me if I have a hard time dehumanizing them like you would want me to. My Christian upbringing keeps getting in the way of that.

I don't buy the argument that if you didn't use illegal immigrants to pick crops or work in factories, a head of lettuce would cost 10 bucks. But I'm convinced that if they weren't around, other people (read american-born citizens on wellfare) would not even consider taking a job picking strawberries for 16 hours a day, with back pain and cuts in their hands to make the job interesting. Which brings me to another point: they're either all here working illegaly for wages under the table, or they're somehow lazy do-nothings living on wellfare. It can't really be both, can it?

No, they are not angels by any stretch of the imagination. But they're not evil either. And like it or not, they're not the complete scourges you make them out to be. In terms of social security, milliions of dollars are paid into the system from fake/borrowed/stolen SSNs that will never, and can never be claimed. My sister's SSN was used by somebody to work for 15 years before she found out. That's 15 years of social security taxes that neither the illegal worker nor my sister will be able to collect. How many of those are there? 5 million? 10?

So forgive me if I take offense to some of your arguments. I don't like to paint a whole group of people as utterly evil or completely innocent. I like to see people as people, and understand social problems from the point of view of everybody involved.

Here's my view on immigration: Picture a business that's hiring. There's a sign inside that says "now hiring, lots of jobs, great pay. Apply inside". Problem is, the business has no doors. Just windows. So what do people do to try to get the job? They break in.

did they break the law? yes.

did they disregard it for their benefit or their family's benefit? yes.

are they criminals in the sense that the word criminal is typically used (no redeeming quality, scourge on society, hardened sociopath, the armed robbery and GTA type)? no.

the problem is, that this imaginary business, as it exists, is set up in a way that INVITES this outcome. Outcomes are the NATURAL consequences of systems from which they eminate. It's how the world works. It's natural that if people are desperate enough for a better life and see a way out, they're going to take it. Even if it involves breaking some rules. It doesn't mean that I excuse their actions, but it does mean that the best way to fix the problem is to change the way the system is set up. Not expect a change in behavior with no change to the system.

Immigrants are behaving predictably in this situation. They're not behaving any differently than if you had no job and no prospects here and saw a way to get your family a better life in Canada. It's easy to judge and say you would never cross illegaly, but hunger and desperation make people do lots of things they would otherwise judge others for doing. And yeah, I would still say you broke the law and would need to account for it. But I also wouldn't judge you as a terrible person, or make blanket statements about americans for doing something that was the natural consequence of a specific circumstance.

/feel free to pick and choose little sentences of mine that defend immigrants, twist them, put words in my mouth, and somehow try to paint me as somebody who knows nothing about immigration and thinks there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. It's pretty much the norm here on fark.

rga184: I know the hispanic community better than probably any of you. I guarantee it.

Close, but not quite.