no, it wouldn't. i don't care if it's satan himself that is uninsured, because it still makes my deductible go up.

Don't hold your breath.

burndtdan: no, it wouldn't. i don't care if it's satan himself that is uninsured, because it still makes my deductible go up.

If Satan can afford his own health insurance but just choses not to get it, then that's his own stupidity and not my problem.

burndtdan: no, it wouldn't. i don't care if it's satan himself that is uninsured, because it still makes my deductible go up.

i think the idea is to find out how many of these uninsured can actually afford to buy insurance right now but don't. plenty of young workers do, because they are making a rational bet that why pay $10,000 a year for coverage when you are young and healthy.

burndtdan: no, it wouldn't. i don't care if it's satan himself that is uninsured, because it still makes my deductible go up.

...I see my work here is done.

albo: plenty of young workers do, because they are making a rational bet that why pay $10,000 a year for coverage when you are young and healthy.

Ok, I don't know anyone who thinks that, and I live in yuppyvile, USA. Sure, you don't have expensive illnesses or need a lot of preventative care, but what happens if you break your leg?

I was plenty healthy when I got hit by a car, and if they hadn't found the drunk that ran off, I would have been bankrupt by the medical bills at the ripe old age of 23. I got laid off in the 2002 recession and was waitressing to pay my bills.

Typical government solution...blow out a match with a fire hose.

Nabb1: not my problem.

It becomes your problem when satan gets the sniffles and goes to the goddamn ER but can't afford to pay for it. They make up the difference by charging your responsible ass more.

Is this really so hard to understand? Until we start denying healthcare to people who can't pay, it is NOT a free market situation and should not be treated as one.

Man, Satan is taking a real beating on this thread. Cut the guy some slack.

sigdiamond2000: Man, Satan is taking a real beating on this thread. Cut the guy some slack.

Playing Devil's advocate?

Nabb1: Playing Devil's advocate?

You're going to hell for that.

Dancin_In_Anson: Typical government solution...blow out a match with a fire hose.

This. But think of all the good jobs at good wages this will generate. And the health benefits for government employee unions are really good.

We have a system in oklahoma that is actually working pretty well that Obama needs to look at before he nationalizes the system.

All businesses, even small businesses with only a few employees negotiate health insurance rates. The state subsidizes it where the employer pays 25% of the premium, the employee pays 15% of the premium and the state pays the remaining 60%.

The only requirements are that the deductible be no higher than $500, that coverage be at least 80/20, and a few other minor things. This is how government SHOULD work.

Private insurance companies still negotiate to keep costs down.

Private businesses negotiate to keep group rates down.

When everyone ends up being forced to buy coverage, rates as a whole will go down because we will not be paying $5,000 a night for the uninsured mouth breather with a cold who goes to the ER.

I would hope that just a little education on the idea of healthcare will show the wonders of preventative care combined with the ability to avoid the emergency room for every little problem someone would encounter.

Of course, since Obama is a democrat, he's just going to end up throwing $300billion dollars at 75mil people without care for whether they can pay for it or if they need it.

Nabb1: Playing Devil's advocate?

Let's not forget those who can afford healthcare but can't get it due to healthcare companies denying membership because of 'preexisting conditions' which is anything at all, doesn't have to be chronic, life-threatening, or expensive. Makes working freelance or being self-employed a real ratbastard.

skinnycatullus:
Is this really so hard to understand? Until we start denying healthcare to people who can't pay, it is NOT a free market situation and should not be treated as one.

So much for 'do no harm,' eh? You realize this has about as much chance of happening as free unicorn-scented universal healthcare? We'll continue to half-ass it for the foreseeable future, and round the world, America will be known as the half-assed nation instead of the too-loud, too-rich, too-bad-we-own-everything nation. We'll be in with other stereotypes like dumb Poles, lazy Mexicans, stingy Scots, drunken Irish, and boring Swiss. Not even as cool as efficient Germans or hard-partying Australians. Half-assed Americans. Get used to it. Own it.

Of course, Universal Healthcare is teh evul.

Morons.

/someone who lived with universal healthcare for 40 years and didn't see life as we know it cease to exist.

DocsInOKC: We have a system in oklahoma that is actually working pretty well that Obama needs to look at before he nationalizes the system.

No he doesn't. he has a mandate to do whatever he goddamn well pleases ya freakin' dumbass Okie. :P


/Go Tech!

Is this where I can make unfounded generalizations about the uninsured?

Cool.

Those lazy shiftless rich bastards ruining it for everyone by buying Escalades and Flat Screens and spinning rims and third car and McMansion and having 12 kids who all get the Dora the Explorer complete play set for christmas.

How dare they not want to fork over money for health insurance!

Suck it, neighbor!

what_now: Ok, I don't know anyone who thinks that, and I live in yuppyvile, USA. Sure, you don't have expensive illnesses or need a lot of preventative care, but what happens if you break your leg?

Regardless of whether you know any people who do that, there are plenty who do. I was one of them while I was working as an independent contractor in broadcasting.

My brother was one of them when he was in grad school and between jobs.

We could both technically afford it, but chose not to because that was basically money wasted unless we hit the injury lottery.

burndtdan: no, it wouldn't. i don't care if it's satan himself that is uninsured, because it still makes my deductible go up.

How can it possibly be a bad thing to analyze the situation before proposing a solution?

Nah, what the hell. Let's just throw a bunch of money up in the air and see who can grab it.

Yanks_RSJ: My brother was one of them when he was in grad school and between jobs.

Was he a part time student? Because I don't know of any university that does not require health care coverage for full time students.

It's $2100 a year here- bare bones, but it's coverage.

albo: ...because they are making a rational bet that why pay $10,000 a year for coverage when you are young and healthy.

I pay $124.93 a month for NC Blue Cross coverage. What is your $10,000/year figure based on?

albo: plenty of young workers do, because they are making a rational bet that why pay $10,000 a year for coverage when you are young and healthy.

One of my wife's bridesmaids in our wedding eschewed buying health insurance and instead bought an Audi. It's a gamble, but hey, it's up them. I just don't want to pay for their stupid choices.

Yanks_RSJ: How can it possibly be a bad thing to analyze the situation before proposing a solution?

Now, that's just crazy talk. Of course, if a larger political and social objective is what you're after as opposed to a narrowly tailored solution to a specific problem, then the details of the problem are less important.

KaponoFor3: I just don't want to pay for their stupid choices.

but you do that every day. much of government is created specifically to pay for people's stupid decisions

I read that little opinion piece (of crap) on the Metro today. Let me just blow one of his arguments out of the water. He says that 80% of people making at least twice the poverty level without health insurance manage to pay off their medical bills. Ok, fine, but what is the median(not the mean/average) medical bill for these people. If it's like $150 for an office visit for most people, but the 20% have something catastrophic happen to them costing them tens of thousands of dollars, then wouldn't it make sense to have something in place for those 20% so that they can cover their bills without losing everything else they have by declaring bankruptcy?

Also, why use the artificial floor of 2x the poverty level?

Nabb1: Of course, if a larger political and social objective is what you're after as opposed to a narrowly tailored solution to a specific problem, then the details of the problem are less important.

Yeah, he was part time.

what_now: Was he a part time student? Because I don't know of any university that does not require health care coverage for full time students.

Why kill a fly with a rolled up newspaper when you can use a sledgehammer?

Il Douchey: I pay $124.93 a month for NC Blue Cross coverage. What is your $10,000/year figure based on?

I take it you don't have kids.

Yanks_RSJ: How can it possibly be a bad thing to analyze the situation before proposing a solution?

because we already know the solution, it has been proven effective by several successful implementations around the world, and the purpose of this analysis is only to provide fallacious reasons to avoid implementing it ourselves.

Nabb1: burndtdan: no, it wouldn't. i don't care if it's satan himself that is uninsured, because it still makes my deductible go up.

If Satan can afford his own health insurance but just choses not to get it, then that's his own stupidity and not my problem.

but it's also my problem.

the problem a lot of people have when considering economic or financial questions is they try to work some sort of social justice into it. this is from the left and right.

in this case, the solution is a win-win for all involved, but we avoid it because we feel it isn't fair. nevermind that it's beneficial to everyone, it makes me feel like i'm giving something to someone that didn't earn it!

the solution is universal, single-payer health care. when we have that, the uninsured will be insured by default, the costs will go down across the board, and everyone who is capable of paying for it will be doing so.

if someone could choose to be uninsured without it affecting the rates that everyone else has to pay, then it would make sense to not care. but that's not the way insurance works.

SurfaceTension: Also, why use the artificial floor of 2x the poverty level?

you have to use something. 2 times povery is common. my state's CHIP has that level for eligibility, i believe

SurfaceTension: . He says that 80% of people making at least twice the poverty level without health insurance manage to pay off their medical bills.

The poverty level for a single person in 2007 in the continental US was $10,210. 2X that is $20,420.

I fail to see how someone making $20k BEFORE TAXES can pay for health insurance.

Dancin_In_Anson: DocsInOKC: We have a system in oklahoma that is actually working pretty well that Obama needs to look at before he nationalizes the system.

No he doesn't. he has a mandate to do whatever he goddamn well pleases ya freakin' dumbass Okie. :P


/Go Tech!

I shall enjoy meeting you on the field of battle. Sadly, your team's future depends on which OU defense shows up. Special teams couldn't hurt either.

Yanks_RSJ: Why kill a fly with a rolled up newspaper when you can use a sledgehammer?

the more appropriate question would be why kill a fly with a rolled up newspaper, when you could shut the window and keep the fly outside to begin with.

the solution isn't going to be slightly adjusting the failed paradigm we currently work under, the solution is going to be changing to a new paradigm.

Yanks_RSJ: what_now: Was he a part time student? Because I don't know of any university that does not require health care coverage for full time students.

Why kill a fly with a rolled up newspaper when you can use a sledgehammer?

Do you know WHY colleges require students to have medical coverage? For two reasons:
1) If they fall and break a leg, they don't have to drop out of school because they can't afford it.
2)They don't get the rest of the class sick and/or ignore an illness and fail out of school.

Yanks_RSJ: Why kill a fly with a rolled up newspaper when you can use a sledgehammer?

Then what is your plan. Give us some suggestions. There's gotta be a solution out there.

I saw two solutions to our problem. 1) Some form of universal healthcare that was average, at best, but an improvement over our current system or 2) A ridiculously thrown together plan that ignored the effects that such a system would have on healthcare benefits in this country leading to millions of people losing coverage.

Everybody in this thread would like a sensible plan that covers those that need coverage, but also works to get people off their ass without providing undue stress on the system.

I'm sure the "overkill" argument is fun to use because given government excess over the past 20 years, that's probably what we get to expect.

But, I'm seeing a big ol' bucket of empty statements with no ideas. I really like seeing ideas of some sort.

And, at the very least, if we start talking about solutions...we can actually work towards fixing the problem.

SurfaceTension: Also, why use the artificial floor of 2x the poverty level?

Because it makes it easier to have a convincing argument.

Also, it annoys me that pretty much every industrialized, civilized western nation on this planet has some form of universal, nationalized care that is reasonably less expensive than our system and we, as Americans, are seemingly too goddamn stupid to fix the problem.

I thought the Dems were going to pay down the debt?

bulldg4life: end up throwing $300billion dollars at 75mil people

That's OK. The little thing that doesn't get advertised too much is that this will be paid for by a nice regressive play-or-pay payroll tax (low-wage employees are the working uninsured, they will pay it) that will make the income tax cuts look like pocket change you can believe in. If you are in a no-income tax bracket now, prepare for a 7-9% cut in income. In the meantime, those guys getting tax increases have nice health plans that will let them go to the front of the line--with no change in the payroll tax.

burndtdan:

Nah, let's just have them do farm labor until they die. Or let's kill them and eat them. Or let's test our unproven drugs on them to insure their safety.

Or, let's wage war and have them "voluntarily" sign up because they exist within a system where their opportunities are a null set.

Lastly, let's let them pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Real men don't need help.

Had a casual conversation with a neighbor that felt his health insurance through work was too expensive, so he canceled it. Later, he took a motorcycle riding class. While in class, he broke his leg in three places. He looked like he was in some sort of Borg apparatus with two metal splints running from butt to ankle and all manner of pins in between...

The SECOND surgery he had, a two day visit to the hospital, (not counting the two ER visits the first weekend, any follow up visits and physical therapy) was 34k. The wife's salary knocks them out of the ball park for any sort of assistance and it's all on their dime.

Shudder.

absoluteparanoia: I take it you don't have kids.

No, but albo's figure is still ridiculous - $10,000/year for coverage of a young and healthy person? That's grossly misleading. I think albo is a trying to skew the debate.

pandabear: The little thing that doesn't get advertised too much is that this will be paid for by a nice regressive play-or-pay payroll tax (low-wage employees are the working uninsured, they will pay it) that will make the income tax cuts look like pocket change you can believe in. If you are in a no-income tax bracket now, prepare for a 7-9% cut in income. In the meantime, those guys getting tax increases have nice health plans that will let them go to the front of the line--with no change in the payroll tax.

So, the people that will be getting the coverage will be paying for it through tax increases?

That seems.....reasonable?

what_now: Ok, I don't know anyone who thinks that, and I live in yuppyvile, USA

You must not know many people then. Or you're just fabricating it. Almost everybody I know including myself has been through that phase, where you may not have coverage while you look for a job or your first job doesn't offer insurance. I remember paying my $125 a month to BCBS right out of college and thinking, jeez why do I need to do this, maybe I should just drop it.

bulldg4life: Also, it annoys me that pretty much every industrialized, civilized western nation on this planet has some form of universal, nationalized care that is reasonably less expensive than our system and we, as Americans, are seemingly too goddamn stupid to fix the problem.

Because the American manta is based on the idea that everything you do was of your own accord. Because the American system was created by rebelling from an overly centralized form of government.

Nevermind that it was a bunch of rich, priviledged men rebelling who still clung to centralized and authoritarian control themselves- the point is that the only true Americans are the ones that never embrace society or accept help. They magically appear at the top. By a stork.

bulldg4life: Also, it annoys me that pretty much every industrialized, civilized western nation on this planet has some form of universal, nationalized care that is reasonably less expensive than our system and we, as Americans, are seemingly too goddamn stupid to fix the problem

different culture, different attitude toward what citizens expect from their government under the social contract. americans have always preferred a less paternalistic central government in all aspects of life. europeans, for example, have the opposite attitude, and are willing to pay more taxes for more stuff from their government.

you can't easily translate those cultural mores and expectations overnight, or even over a generation.

lunchinlewis: Almost everybody I know including myself has been through that phase, where you may not have coverage while you look for a job or your first job doesn't offer insurance.

I know plenty of people who didn't have health insurance when they graduated from college because they worked at Starbucks, or as temps, or whatever, while looking for a job.

But these people didn't CHOOSE not to have health insurance- it wasn't possible.

albo: you can't easily translate those cultural mores and expectations overnight, or even over a generation.

So, it's best to keep ignoring the problem and let my grandchildren worry about it because that's what we've always done OR we start working on a solution now so my grandchildren won't be crushed under the ever-increasing weight of healthcare costs?

Il Douchey: No, but albo's figure is still ridiculous - $10,000/year for coverage of a young and healthy person? That's grossly misleading. I think albo is a trying to skew the debate.

Not at all. You have an employer, right? You don't actually pay $136/month for your benefits. That's just the part the your employer tells you to chip in.

Fringe benefits usually cost about 1/3rd of your salary. So if you make 50k, your employer is generally spending about 15k a year on your Dental, Eye, Medical, and unemployment.

10k/year is very reasonable for a family. A single person in DC can expect to pay 500/month.

sloppy shoes: Lastly, let's let them pull themselves up by their own bootstraps. Real men don't need help.

It's not that real men don't need help. Real men do everything they can to remedy their situation before accepting help, then do everything they can to ensure they never need it again.