Going down fast.

Well, the Yanks were late to Word War II.

/runs and hides

What's pathetic is WWII got us out of the depression. What we need to do is not issue bailouts, but fund new projects to create jobs. (biatchslapping the auto industry for making shiatty-ass products wouldn't be a bad idea, either.)

For instance, wind energy. We currently ship steel over to China where they use that steel to build wind turbines and ship them back here. If we increase our need for wind turbines, it will become more economical to manufacture the wind turbines here. This can create tens of thousands of jobs, many of them permanent.

If by "spent" you mean "forked over our cash to huge institutions to let them acquire other institutions and get even larger", then, yeah.

We didn't actually "spend" 3.8tn on the crisis. We cross-collaterlaized loans to that amount. Under that logic, you "spend" the total value of your house on the day that you buy it.

fredcat: Well, the Yanks were late to Word War II.

/runs and hides

It's true, though. We waited for the Soviet Union to do most of the work for us.

Two things:

1) Other countries are actually spending more than us, compared to GDP.
2) Is this scary because of the size of the scope of the problem, or the government getting involved so much? Not sure which subby is afraid of.

It's all OK now that only corporations and the rich will be paying taxes from now on.

/cough

Reactron: It's all OK now that only corporations and the rich will be paying taxes from now on.

If only the corporations and the rich didn't have to pay taxes either, all of this would go away, right?

/uhg

angryjd: We didn't actually "spend" 3.8tn on the crisis. We cross-collaterlaized loans to that amount. Under that logic, you "spend" the total value of your house on the day that you buy it.

That's a minor detail when there are spending commitments like guaranteeing the debt of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ($6tn and growing, at the same time their insured loan defaults are rising)

So while the foreign central bank swap lines will almost certainly be repaid, other loans like the one to AIG is completely lost

We can't correct a bursting bubble - by attempting to fill the collapsing bubble with 'real' money...

BUT... we're going to try.

This is going to hurt.

SphericalTime: If only the corporations and the rich didn't have to pay taxes either, all of this would go away, right?

No. The point is that neither the rich nor the corporations get their munny from the rich or the corporations. Joe Sixpack will henceforth be known as Joe Twopack, once these bills start coming due.

I think we have stopped the bleeding but our patient is still in critical condition. I think we would be in much worse shape if the government didn't try to do something.

The crisis is not even over yet. Wait till we bailout the credit card industry. The mortgage crisis is nothing compared to the credit card crisis coming.

i have a feeling by time this is all done with it will surpass our GDP.

badhatharry: I think we have stopped the bleeding but our patient is still in critical condition. I think we would be in much worse shape if the government didn't try to do something.

No they just made the problem worst. What do you think that Bailout money did? Where do you think it went? They took money from YOU the middle class and gave it to the top 5 percent.


You cant have it both ways.

lerry: What's pathetic is WWII got us out of the depression. What we need to do is not issue bailouts, but fund new projects to create jobs.

Getting millions of men drafted into the armed forces had something to do with that. If only America had a war to fight that needed more troops on the ground.

mesohorny: The crisis is not even over yet. Wait till we bailout the credit card industry. The mortgage crisis is nothing compared to the credit card crisis coming.

i have a feeling by time this is all done with it will surpass our GDP.

Insurance industry is lined up to be the next bailout, they're going to be approved for shell company banks that allow them to borrow as much as they please at no cost

American Express was the only credit card company that was not already set up to borrow from the Federal Reserve

Our free market, let me show...let me, hmmm.

mesohorny: badhatharry: I think we have stopped the bleeding but our patient is still in critical condition. I think we would be in much worse shape if the government didn't try to do something.

No they just made the problem worst. What do you think that Bailout money did? Where do you think it went? They took money from YOU the middle class and gave it to the top 5 percent.


You cant have it both ways.

The credit markets were frozen. The whole financial system was on the verge of collapse. Overnight, the banks could not get money and you would not have been able to get your money. Your credit card and debit card would have stopped working. Your employer would not have been able to send you your paycheck. It would have caused panic and widespread civil unrest. That is what economic collapse means and that is why Paulson was scared as hell when he went to Congress to ask for the money.

sweetmelissa31: fredcat: Well, the Yanks were late to Word War II.

/runs and hides

It's true, though. We waited for the Soviet Union to do most of the work for us.

Like murder 22,000 Polish military officers, police, and civilian POWs. I'd saw we really were late for that one - to try and stop it.

Wiki (new window)

/Rages and sobs

mesohorny: badhatharry: I think we have stopped the bleeding but our patient is still in critical condition. I think we would be in much worse shape if the government didn't try to do something.

No they just made the problem worst. What do you think that Bailout money did? Where do you think it went? They took money from YOU the middle class and gave it to the top 5 percent.


You cant have it both ways.



Actually, they took money from everyone. The top 5% income earners pay 60% of all taxes.

Link (new window)


The bottom 50% pay 3%. the bottom 40% pay 0%.

Fine with me to rail against The Man and there is a lot of b/s in the bailout but at least get your facts right.

(Yes I know the bailout money went to financial companies and some of those are still going to pay bonuses to high earners. However, most the bill for that isn't going be be paid by the middle class.)

lerry: What's pathetic is WWII got us out of the depression. What we need to do is not issue bailouts, but fund new projects to create jobs attack Germany.


You gonna get bombed.

lerry: What's pathetic is WWII got us out of the depression.

If only someone would destroy every other country's manufacturing infrastructure, we'd get that boost again.

Where is Hitler when we need him?

I should point out that I was for Paulson's original bailout plan for the financial companies. It was just an emergency action to prevent the collapse. Bailing out insurance companies and automakers was not in that proposal. I don't think that is a good idea. Many large companies are going to go bankrupt and we can't bail them all out. Very tough times are ahead.

I went on a bender last week and blew through my savings. I demand a bailout so that I do not starve and the guys down at the bar won't have to suffer through my absence.

Am I right in thinking George H Walker, another member of clan Bush, was involved in the Lehman Brothers catastrophe? What the hell is wrong with that family?

21-7-b: What the hell is wrong with that family?

Pacts with Satan. It's a Bush family coming of age thing.

There goes the republican "you can't fix problems by just throwing money at them" mantra.

OK, listen up all trolling neocons. This bailout amounts to the largest redistribution of wealth in human history. It was taking it from one group (the taxpayers) and given to the wealthy. We've started it and now other counties have to follow suit to protect their banking and industries. This is socialism, just not the take from the rich to help the poor kind.

Uninhibited greed coupled with sociopathic board rooms caused this problem. Take a look at how Barclay was rescued. They turned down a offer from their own government and took a worse one from Abu Dhabi and Qatar. You might ask why did they take the worse deal. Simply put, the British one had the potential to take away their golden parachutes, the other did not.

Our current financial problems stem from the fact that many large conglomerates are being run by people who are only interested in their immediate bonuses and couldn't give a rats ass about the long term financial stability of their companies.

I don't have any solutions for these problems, but I do know that relying on the Democrats and Republicans to work in our best interest is a bad idea. These parties are both bought and paid for by large corporations. This country is in need of a revolution.

/Rant off

red230 but but Chairman Obama is that revolution.. why do you not believe.........

Yea, those Dems in charge of all the baking oversight committies sure did their jobs. Wait, and Countrywide loans for all.......

Debt is Money. It's an unsustainable system.

angryjd: We didn't actually "spend" 3.8tn on the crisis. We cross-collaterlaized loans to that amount. Under that logic, you "spend" the total value of your house on the day that you buy it.

Yes, you do.

cltbuilder: Debt is Money. It's an unsustainable system.

What?

Doublek111:



Actually, they took money from everyone. The top 5% income earners pay 60% of all taxes.

Link (new window)


The bottom 50% pay 3%. the bottom 40% pay 0%.

Fine with me to rail against The Man and there is a lot of b/s in the bailout but at least get your facts right.

(Yes I know the bailout money went to financial companies and some of those are still going to pay bonuses to high earners. However, most the bill for that isn't going be be paid by the middle class.)

Inflation tax

Can consumers (the middle class) adjust prices? NOPE! If the top pays more we end up paying more. in the end we pay for it no matter what. So they didn't take money away from everyone just main street.

GaryPDX: Going down fast.

You must be very, very happy.

sweetmelissa31: fredcat: Well, the Yanks were late to Word War II.

/runs and hides

It's true, though. We waited for the Soviet Union to do most of the work for us.

If the Russians failed to get the job done, plan B would have been a big fat mushroom clouds over German targets.

By strange coincidence, I am currently reading a detective novel set in an alternative history which Berlin got nuked in 1946...

Soviets would not have had such a hard time if Stalin has not murdered most of his good generals, if he had not destroyed a good deal of Soviet agriculture via mismanagement and pseudoscience, had a policies which intentionally let millions of his citizens starve to death, if he had not cooperated with Hitler (including proving the Nazi war machine with cheap gas) prior to Hitler betraying him, and ignoring numerous reports that Nazi forces were clearly preparing to invade the USSR. (Of course Stalin was not the only appeaser. Britain, France, the Vatican and others where guilty as well. The U.S. actually encouraged the appeasement.)

winterwhile: Yea, those Dems in charge of all the baking oversight committies sure did their jobs. Wait, and Countrywide loans for all.......

Just once I would love to see you make a point.
Do you have one this time?
Seriously.

/baking committees...
Too easy.

lerry: What's pathetic is WWII got us out of the depression. What we need to do is not issue bailouts, but fund new projects to create jobs. (biatchslapping the auto industry for making shiatty-ass products wouldn't be a bad idea, either.)

I know people like to dogpile on the auto industry here, but honestly we can't afford to have them go under. If they topple then so do their suppliers, leaving in their wake well over a million lost jobs.

Instead, we ought to give them a federal loan with strings attached. Something to the effect of, "You'll need to have a fleet of cars that has X emissions and gets Y MPG by 2010 or the loan is due."

Follow that up with some tax rebates for buying a new energy efficient car and we've got a win/win/win situation pretty much all around.

Certainly, there has got to be a way that an Obama administration can work this to our advantage.

Argh2: cltbuilder: Debt is Money. It's an unsustainable system.

What?

Every dollar in circulation is loaned at interest to the person/institution using it by the federal reserve bank, which prints all money in circulation. In turn that money is loaned out to others in a long chain of lenders and borrowers.

the money+ interest must be paid off to the original lender eventually. the Fed is the original lender since it supplies banks with Liquidity(through interest rates and inflation the fed regulates money supply). In order to cover the interest owed to the fed by the US, the Fed prints more money. in order to pay that interest back the next fiscal year, the fed prints more money. What results is a continual devaluation of the dollar as the Fed must always be paid interest on the money it loans. why do you think the dollar is worth 3% of its original value? Inflation is essentially the feds interest on its perpetual loan stealing the value of your currency.

The dollar you have is a dollar owed to someone else by someone else. Therefore all money is debt, and in fact currency in general is debt.

TwistedFark: lerry: What's pathetic is WWII got us out of the depression. What we need to do is not issue bailouts, but fund new projects to create jobs. (biatchslapping the auto industry for making shiatty-ass products wouldn't be a bad idea, either.)

I know people like to dogpile on the auto industry here, but honestly we can't afford to have them go under. If they topple then so do their suppliers, leaving in their wake well over a million lost jobs.

Instead, we ought to give them a federal loan with strings attached. Something to the effect of, "You'll need to have a fleet of cars that has X emissions and gets Y MPG by 2010 or the loan is due."

Follow that up with some tax rebates for buying a new energy efficient car and we've got a win/win/win situation pretty much all around.

Certainly, there has got to be a way that an Obama administration can work this to our advantage.

Obama has supported assistance to the auto industry, with many of the conditions you described.

He suggests that a U.S. auto industry, reinvigorated by some forward-thinking and green-tech, could return this nation's auto-manufacturing sector to its former glory days.

It would restore a solid part of the nation's manufacturing base.

Personally, I would find it interesting to see U.S. auto-makers reinvent themselves. Vehicles like the Chevy Volt (gas-electric, but using the gas-engine as a back-up) could become part of a new, sleek, industry standard.


/I have, however, given up on getting my anti-gravity car.

TheMysteriousStranger: .

Soviets would not have had such a hard time if Stalin has not murdered most of his good generals, if he had not destroyed a good deal of Soviet agriculture via mismanagement and pseudoscience, had a policies which intentionally let millions of his citizens starve to death, if he had not cooperated with Hitler (including proving the Nazi war machine with cheap gas) prior to Hitler betraying him, and ignoring numerous reports that Nazi forces were clearly preparing to invade the USSR. (Of course Stalin was not the only appeaser. Britain, France, the Vatican and others where guilty as well. The U.S. actually encouraged the appeasement.)

But Stalin also had the benefit of not caring whether his soldiers died, and ordering them to never surrender if they were completely surrounded, even if all of them had to be killed. If any of his soldiers were captured by the Nazis and then returned the the Soviet Union, they'd be sent to the gulag as traitors.

Hiro's Protagonist: angryjd: We didn't actually "spend" 3.8tn on the crisis. We cross-collaterlaized loans to that amount. Under that logic, you "spend" the total value of your house on the day that you buy it.

That's a minor detail when there are spending commitments like guaranteeing the debt of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac ($6tn and growing, at the same time their insured loan defaults are rising)

So while the foreign central bank swap lines will almost certainly be repaid, other loans like the one to AIG is completely lost

It is not a minor detail. The vast majority of the $3.8t (including most if not all of the AIG loan) will be paid back with interest.

This is incredibly shoddy journalism. Some moron making an article out of the gross amount loaned when 9 out of 10 readers are unsophisticated enough to believe it.

I think a better analogy is to say that if you buy a bond or put money in the bank you have 'spent' it. You're just providing a loan which you expect to be paid back. The fed reasonably expects the vast majority of the $3.8b to be paid back.

Everything sounds bad when you adjust it for inflation.

how is our dollar worth anything at this point. there is no end in sight banks, auto, credit card, cities all asking for bailouts. and lets not forget the retail chains they are failing as well. And to be honest i don't even think Obama can fix this mess. we are farked any way you look at it, it's only a matter of time before depression 2.0.

oh and once I saw a blimp: Everything sounds bad when you adjust it for inflation.

Yeah this is true but wait until inflation hits from this lovely bailout. Yes i think I will have a 40 dollar chicken dinner.

GhostWing: TwistedFark: lerry: What's pathetic is WWII got us out of the depression. What we need to do is not issue bailouts, but fund new projects to create jobs. (biatchslapping the auto industry for making shiatty-ass products wouldn't be a bad idea, either.)

I know people like to dogpile on the auto industry here, but honestly we can't afford to have them go under. If they topple then so do their suppliers, leaving in their wake well over a million lost jobs.

Instead, we ought to give them a federal loan with strings attached. Something to the effect of, "You'll need to have a fleet of cars that has X emissions and gets Y MPG by 2010 or the loan is due."

He suggests that a U.S. auto industry, reinvigorated by some forward-thinking and green-tech, could return this nation's auto-manufacturing sector to its former glory days.

It would restore a solid part of the nation's manufacturing base.

Personally, I would find it interesting to see U.S. auto-makers reinvent themselves. Vehicles like the Chevy Volt (gas-electric, but using the gas-engine as a back-up) could become part of a new, sleek, industry standard.

That sounds good in principle, but who's going to supply the forward thinking? The American automotive industry has been dying a slow death for many years. The people at the helms of these organizations who will be called on to suddenly become visionaries are the same people who farked it up in the first place.

Reactron: SphericalTime: If only the corporations and the rich didn't have to pay taxes either, all of this would go away, right?

No. The point is that neither the rich nor the corporations get their munny from the rich or the corporations. Joe Sixpack will henceforth be known as Joe Twopack, once these bills start coming due.

This is a hideously stupid argument and I'll tell you why.

The assumption being made here is that if we tax businesses they will pass the cost onto the consumer. Well yeah, they will. But what you forget is that this is, well suppose to be at least, a capitalist society. If I don't like one option I'm free to shop for another. If Wal-Mart raises its prices and Target does not, I will shop at Target. Wal-Mart will have to consider whether or not that lose of customer is worth passing those costs onto them. If both raise their prices it will create room for a smaller company to expand by eating that cost and having cheaper goods that more people will buy. In the long run their profits increase greatly allowing them to expand to new heights. This will eventually force Wal-Mart and Target to have to compete with them.

Then there's the line of we have to use certain companies because they're the only ones can do it. This too is utter BS. It was used to give Haliburton no-bid contracts for the war and yet they out-source most of their actual work. If their primary method of accomplishing anything is out-sourcing, then what they hell do we need them for? Why not just bypass the middle-man and go right to the ones actually doing the work. A lot of the major companies these days operate like this. The fact is, if the Haliburtons, Fords, and Wal-Marts of the world go under, there will be something to take its place. That is how capitalism works, after all.